Rural home invasion – barricade or run for it?

Discuss those "what if" or "what would you do" scenarios you've been wondering about.

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Re: Rural home invasion – barricade or run for it?

Post by jor-el » Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:05 pm

Dabster wrote:The concern that keeps popping into my head is that if they have put all of that effort into the intimidating frontal attack -why wouldn't they do what I think I would do in this situation? Which is, surround the area first and be prepared to shoot or capture anyone sneaking out the back.

Given this thought, I think I would call 911, grab the shotgun by the door, maybe attempt to warn them away from a position of cover and/or retreat to my fortified armory and prepare to hold out until police arrive. If 911 hears a gun battle I believe they will get there faster than normal and probably bring armored cars and helicopters.

Another concern I have is that I usually have small kids around the house. They would be on the top of my mind. If they were around, I would definitely not try to run.
If you warn your invaders the odds are good they will simply try to concentrate fire on your position, suppress you until they flank you, then light you up with you not having fired a single round.
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Re: Rural home invasion – barricade or run for it?

Post by The Twizzler » Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:29 pm

If we have young children or the elderly or disabled then I want to change my answer. While I would be terrified, I would hope I have the stones to stay and defend them. I guess I am rounding them up in the best defensible room I have ( my bedroom) and making a stand. If they are the monsters jor-el talked about I at least want to take some out to spare others. I would try to give some of the simpler firearms to those that could use them to help.
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Re: Rural home invasion – barricade or run for it?

Post by raptor » Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:55 am

jor-el wrote: If you warn your invaders the odds are good they will simply try to concentrate fire on your position, suppress you until they flank you, then light you up with you not having fired a single round.
Yes.

A verbal warning in this case eliminates the single real advantage that you have. The intruders do not know exactly where you are and a verbal warning gives that information.

Unless the verbal warning is part of a distraction to draw their attention away from others running in another direction, IMO you are better off either firing on them or remaining quiet behind locked doors and letting them come to you.

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Re: Rural home invasion – barricade or run for it?

Post by teotwaki » Fri Nov 18, 2016 12:20 pm

jor-el wrote:If you warn your invaders the odds are good they will simply try to concentrate fire on your position, suppress you until they flank you, then light you up with you not having fired a single round.
I reread the first post and there is no context provided so I assumed the scenario was imagined in present (peaceful) times and not the PAW. To me it would mean you cannot just open up on people who have "wandered" onto your property because you could end up being thrown in jail after the dust settled. The fact that they are openly armed does not speak well of their intentions, lost or not.
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Re: Rural home invasion – barricade or run for it?

Post by Stercutus » Fri Nov 18, 2016 2:06 pm

teotwaki wrote:
jor-el wrote:If you warn your invaders the odds are good they will simply try to concentrate fire on your position, suppress you until they flank you, then light you up with you not having fired a single round.
I reread the first post and there is no context provided so I assumed the scenario was imagined in present (peaceful) times and not the PAW. To me it would mean you cannot just open up on people who have "wandered" onto your property because you could end up being thrown in jail after the dust settled. The fact that they are openly armed does not speak well of their intentions, lost or not.
Actually it may. It really depends. If armed people are trying to actively make entry to your home that would fly as clear cut self defense down here. If you can even demonstrate their intent to do so that would likely work as well. There are a number of cases supporting this.

Trespassing while armed is a separate issue.
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Re: Rural home invasion – barricade or run for it?

Post by raptor » Fri Nov 18, 2016 2:18 pm

teotwaki wrote:
jor-el wrote:If you warn your invaders the odds are good they will simply try to concentrate fire on your position, suppress you until they flank you, then light you up with you not having fired a single round.
I reread the first post and there is no context provided so I assumed the scenario was imagined in present (peaceful) times and not the PAW. To me it would mean you cannot just open up on people who have "wandered" onto your property because you could end up being thrown in jail after the dust settled. The fact that they are openly armed does not speak well of their intentions, lost or not.
In my case they would have had to batter down a sturdy gate to get there (criminal trespass and destruction of property) which along with openly bearing/brandishing arms is grounds (in LA and MS) to be lawfully in fear of my life. Now in the OP's post he did not say he had a gate or that the driveway was posted as private. That may change things a bit in LA or MS. Obviously in other states other laws may apply.

One of the things I would be worried about in this scenario is that there are lot of lawful hunters and they get lost and while they may be armed, grungy and odoriferous they are not maruders and are not likely to batter down a gate.

The key here in my case is that the intruders are on private property and not public property. In both states the need to retreat is gone (MS not LA) and then the reasonableness of the force you use is becomes the key factor to determining whether it is lawful or not to employ lethal force.

What is reasonable force to deal with 11 armed people suddenly showing up on your property in an unlawful manner and there is only 1 of you or you and say two toddlers?

A link to two cases not exactly the same as this but relevant to the discussion:

In both cases no charges were filed.
LA: http://www.houmatoday.com/news/20120223 ... ting-death
MS: http://www.wlox.com/story/31043023/more ... p-shooting


Edited to add: For the record I think charges are appropriate (for different reasons) in both cases but no one asked me so my opinion and $5 will get you a cup of coffee. :wink:

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Re: Rural home invasion – barricade or run for it?

Post by jor-el » Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:27 pm

teotwaki wrote:
jor-el wrote:If you warn your invaders the odds are good they will simply try to concentrate fire on your position, suppress you until they flank you, then light you up with you not having fired a single round.
I reread the first post and there is no context provided so I assumed the scenario was imagined in present (peaceful) times and not the PAW. To me it would mean you cannot just open up on people who have "wandered" onto your property because you could end up being thrown in jail after the dust settled. The fact that they are openly armed does not speak well of their intentions, lost or not.
I'm exercising the privilege of adjusting the scenario to fit circumstances I would have created prior to the scenario start. I'm responding to my version, not the OP's.

1) As Raptor brought up after I did, I would have erected solid barriers along my property line to avoid the many ills of trespassing. Also, I would have them monitored by CCTV as well as other means I've described in earlier posts. Seyg-El, my father, had numerous issues of trespassing and burglaries due to his home and backyard being attached at rooftop level to other homes and storefronts. Also, he had a short rear fence facing onto an empty rear alley. No land of mine would have open borders.
Also, I would have outbuildings to house livestock and farming equipment and storage, and there would be an inner perimeter and fence. Because who would leave their shit out in the open? A solo farmhouse on a farm, really?

2) The OP did say this was after sunset but not night, with light snow on the ground. Gets dark real quick about now.

3) From the get-go the intruders are described as strangers, not neighbors and not friends. Wasn't specifically described, but strangers carrying guns in the hand in other than the universally known "safe" carry positions such as slung or with actions open, magazines out I would have to consider hostile.

4) I'm not going with the OP's scenario loadout because I'm already better armed than that now. I don't live in a bubble removed from reality. I would imagine most LEOs in the real world are well aware of the much more hostile working environment that exists today, and the measures we and I have had to take to ensure the safety of ourselves, our coworkers, and our families. I would venture to say most LEOs are already feeling they're at the SHTF level already, buying lowers, parts kits and .223 ammo. Good thing I've been swinging 7.62x39 and NATO lately.

People that breached my perimeter by damaging my gate or fence, showing up in gathering darkness without having announced/identified themselves prior, and carrying loaded firearms in hand and at the ready, are asking for trouble by showing up at my house.

And trouble they shall receive.
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Re: Rural home invasion – barricade or run for it?

Post by yossarian » Sat Nov 19, 2016 12:02 am

The only things I know for certain are:
1. I don't know them
2. They are armed
3. I'm fat and slow
4. Bullets are small and really fast.

I'm staying put. In my AO, if I fired first(and survived) in this scenario its very unlikely that I would face any charges

That said, there's a prison not terribly far from here. Several years ago I was stopped on the way to work so LE could check under the bed cover of my truck for an escaped prisoner. We've also had a manhunt for another fugitive through here in the not too distant past. I don't know everybody in the county and I'd feel pretty shitty if I shot a neighbor checking up on me and mine. Granted with the dawn of cell phones, text alerts and social media the odds of this have diminished, but its not out of the question around here.

Descriptions of the vehicles and occupants are pretty vague. Does this look like a farm truck or a mobile meth lab? What's the tooth to tattoo ratio?

I guess I'll watch how they handle the dogs and go from there.
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Re: Rural home invasion – barricade or run for it?

Post by teotwaki » Sat Nov 19, 2016 12:37 am

I can play that too.

My ranch is now located in Arizona.

For my scenario I own a pre-1986 Faithful 50 and I will just open up on the fools on my front lawn with as much ammo as it takes to turn them into a smoking pile of scum. Then I'll go back to eating dinner....

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Re: Rural home invasion – barricade or run for it?

Post by Black Beard » Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:20 pm

Call police, hide, take pictures with phone.

Riskier would be to wait until they go inside and quietly disable their vehicles (if left unattended) or shoot the guy with the vehicles from inside the tree line. Then run and let the police deal with the remainder.

It could make a pretty good "B" movie to have a bunch of home invaders stuck in a cabin in the woods while the owner picks them off from outside, one by one.

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Re: Rural home invasion – barricade or run for it?

Post by Stercutus » Sat Nov 19, 2016 5:33 pm

Black Beard wrote:Call police, hide, take pictures with phone.

Riskier would be to wait until they go inside and quietly disable their vehicles (if left unattended) or shoot the guy with the vehicles from inside the tree line. Then run and let the police deal with the remainder.

It could make a pretty good "B" movie to have a bunch of home invaders stuck in a cabin in the woods while the owner picks them off from outside, one by one.
It's been done a number of times. Charles Bronson was well known in the genre with:

Death Hunt - Nearly the same scenario as here (a true story) with Albert Johnson driving off his nine attackers and their 42 dogs then picking off the pursuers through the Yukon (this is actually a pretty good movie);
Chato's Land - The scenario you describe with Bronson picking off the attackers through protracted campaign in the desert (fictional);
Mr. Majestyk - Bronson is a watermelon farmer beset by evil (uses a Winchester 1200 12 GA);
Messenger of Death - Bronson is not home when the hit team shows up and things go poorly.

I am sure there are others he did as well. Bronson was best known for his Death Wish movies but he did dozens of "B" action movies only a few of which were war movies and Westerns. If you like the grind house genre with less gratuitous violence he has a whole archive of them.
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Re: Rural home invasion – barricade or run for it?

Post by DarkAxel » Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:25 am

I'll adapt the scenario to my circumstances.

If I am alone, I'd get armed and run for it. There is only one way for vehicles to get to my house (mountain on two sides and a stream on the other), so if I cross the stream and go up the mountain on the other side of it, I won't have to worry about being chased down by gunmen in their vehicles.

If my family is here, I'd barricade. I'd first call 911, then call my neighbor (a good friend and Army vet). Then I'd stick my AR out the window and bump-fire to keep their heads down while my neighbor closes in from behind with his AR. Sometimes prepping is forming good relationships with the neighbors.
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Re: Rural home invasion – barricade or run for it?

Post by Black Beard » Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:23 am

Thanks Stercutus. Going to have to get a couple of them.

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Re: Rural home invasion – barricade or run for it?

Post by RoneKiln » Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:36 pm

Driving habits must be very different in my region than in most of yours. In my area a car and a truck pulling up indicate 3, maybe 4 people max.

I only know a few old timers that still keep shotguns by the door. Almost everyone I know has shifted to something on an AR platform (or equivalent) for dealing with varmints (generally 4 legged, but for 2 as well). So I'm comfortable adjusting the scenario to assume I have something equivalent.

If I don't recognize any of these people, I think I'm obligated to greet them politely first. My property isn't barricaded like some people here, so I have no ethical or legal grounds to just open fire. I can be polite with a rifle in my hands though. Even 4 to 1, most vultures will move on from an obviously armed and ready opponent, especially as they have no idea what backup I may have.

If world or life scenarios take an unusual extreme shift and I think these people are specifically hunting me, I don't see much value in running. I think I'm better off shooting first. Modern weapons can be a massive force multiplier if you're the first one to open up. Running out back just means I get ambushed by the guy they undoubtedly have waiting for me there. I'm helpless against that guy cause I can't see him.
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Re: Rural home invasion – barricade or run for it?

Post by jor-el » Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:09 pm

Apparently someone must have read the OP and decided to make it a plan. And decided to do it in the city of Huseton. Defending team apparently did not have a gun, did have three kids and drugs.

http://abc13.com/news/west-road-in-nort ... e/1683042/

LEOs took and sent no shots, no casualties and no arrests. BTW, 5 to 10 perps.
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Re: Rural home invasion – barricade or run for it?

Post by Towanda » Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:09 pm

I can't run, so I'll have to barricade and shoot. One corner of my bedroom is equipped as my Last Stand Corner.
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Re: Rural home invasion – barricade or run for it?

Post by analysis autonomy » Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:28 pm

I don't think preemptive attack is smart. If you do that, it's guaranteed they will return fire. With being outnumbered so significantly, your chance of dieing is greater than 99% i'd say.

On the other hand, if you don't attack them, there is no guarantee that they are looking to harm you. Even if there is more likely that they are looking to harm you, let's say 75%. That still is better odds than the first scenario. There's still a good chance that they are just there to rob the home.

I also considered the option of running a little distance from the home and let them take your stuff and leave, then come back to the warm home. But what if they take their sweet time because the home is unoccupied, and you're freezing out there?

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Re: Rural home invasion – barricade or run for it?

Post by NT2C » Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:04 am

I'm in my 60s and have severe mobility problems. My wife is a little younger and a little more mobile, but not much.

I think Bruce says it best:


No retreat, baby, no surrender.

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Re: Rural home invasion – barricade or run for it?

Post by Stercutus » Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:29 am

jor-el wrote:
Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:09 pm
Apparently someone must have read the OP and decided to make it a plan. And decided to do it in the city of Huseton. Defending team apparently did not have a gun, did have three kids and drugs.

http://abc13.com/news/west-road-in-nort ... e/1683042/

LEOs took and sent no shots, no casualties and no arrests. BTW, 5 to 10 perps.
You will notice that they sent in the robot too. So there you have it.
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Re: Rural home invasion – barricade or run for it?

Post by CrossCut » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:06 am

Barricade/defend here.

The locale in the OP scenario matches our situation fairly well, including LE taking 45 mins (usually after we provide them directions) to get here. Our home is a two story ICF, I'd take my chances staying and defending the upper level which would normally be the wife's responsibility. Long odds maybe, but attrition might convince them to rethink their plan and retreat.

We (OK, the contractors we hired) built our home after we worked with an architect for nearly a year to get the blueprints we wanted for our forever home. Defensibility wasn't the primary consideration but many of the features and layout of the home we did want lent themselves well to home defense. Besides the 8" of reinforced concrete ICF walls and steel doors, our front door is postioned halfway (about 4.5' up) between the two floors and accessed from the outside by climbing a narrow staircase with only a small landing large enough for a single person at the top. The front door opens onto the mid-way landing for our switchback staircase.

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A group wanting to enter through our front door would have to move single file for about 25' through straight, narrow, staircases before they reached either the upper or lower level, all of that time in the sights of a defender positioned at the top the upper level staircase, and for half that distance for a defender at the bottom of the lower level staircase. Any attacker stopped or dropped on the stairs or landings would be an obstacle to those behind him. The only other entry except the lower level windows is through the attached garage and two exterior steel doors, one of which has the door frame secured to the ICF with concrete anchors and extra long hinge screws to slow them down. Another advantage for the defender, the upper level floor is 3" of standard strength (not lightweight) concrete poured over 3/4" OSB with 1/2" ceramic tile on top, which should stop most small arms fire (short of .30 caliber or better rifles I'd suppose) between the floors.

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Re: Rural home invasion – barricade or run for it?

Post by Aikibiker » Sun Aug 05, 2018 3:31 am

Going with OP's scenario, wait until the group gets 1/3 to 1/2 way between the house and the vehicles then empty the shotgun out the window into the group aiming for abdominal shots.

I specify that distance because from a human psychology perspective the survivors are most likely to fall back and take cover behind their vehicles at that distance. I am aiming for gut shots because they are fatal, but the fallen are going to take a while to die and will be yelling and screaming the whole time which is going to sow confusion in the survivors making them hesitate between helping their friends, running away, or continuing the attack. I have just taken away the initiative and bought myself 30 to 60 seconds.

I use that time to retreat to the bed room grab my long gun(which would be an M4gery) and ammo (maybe armor) and sneak out the back. Then I cut around the house and fire while moving while I take the enemy's flank. That is why I wanted them to take cover behind the vehicles, so that when I get to their aide, they are all lined up. Then I assault through their position and finish the engagement using aggression and violence of action.

Should work against anyone without an infantry background at least.
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Re: Rural home invasion – barricade or run for it?

Post by Cowgirl » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:33 am

I am getting to be an older fart, with a trick knee. I don't sprint well. Fleeing is no longer a good option for me.

I am going to modify my response to my current location so I can explain some of what we have in terms of defenses (never disclose it all online).

We have a padlocked and very sturdy tall gate at the front of our property that is just over 7 feet tall. We keep it locked all the time. The entire property is fenced and has hedgerows planted to make getting through very difficult for would-be intruders. We have an alarm system set up so we know if anyone approaches the gate. We also have a pack of German Shepherds. Yes, a pack.

So if someone has the temerity to bring bolt cutters to get the gate open, they are here to commit a burglary at a minimum, and possibly a home invasion

Around here a car and a pickup are more likely to carry 3 to 4 people. And around here, burglaries and home invasions usually have 3 to 4 criminals, maximum - fewer people to split up the spoils. These are almost always meth heads looking for money and guns. They are not swat trained. They are not soldiers. They have no training. They are not really willing to die - they are just wanting more meth and/or heroin.

I am assuming that this would-be home invasion is happening now, not after the zombie apocalypse.

I cannot run away safely given my knee. So I would:

1) grab my shotgun that I keep loaded;
2) call 911 - county response time for my area is usually 15 minutes or less - the last place we lived was about 45 minutes to an hour response time, and when we moved to a new place, this was amongst our selection criteria - how fast do they respond? I wanted rural but not quite so isolated;
3) call in dogs (don't want them shot if not necessary);
4) retreat to saferoom;
5) while in saferoom I would call my neighbors - I have their numbers stored and we look out for each other;
6) if the criminals do breach saferoom before deputies arrive, I would blow them out of their socks (legal to do in my jurisdiction at that point);
7) likely, once I start shooting, the rest will flee. Again, meth heads and other druggies are not Rambo.

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Re: Rural home invasion – barricade or run for it?

Post by JeeperCreeper » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:02 pm

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Re: Rural home invasion – barricade or run for it?

Post by Zimmy » Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:55 am

Aikibiker wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 3:31 am
Going with OP's scenario, wait until the group gets 1/3 to 1/2 way between the house and the vehicles then empty the shotgun out the window into the group aiming for abdominal shots.

I specify that distance because from a human psychology perspective the survivors are most likely to fall back and take cover behind their vehicles at that distance. I am aiming for gut shots because they are fatal, but the fallen are going to take a while to die and will be yelling and screaming the whole time which is going to sow confusion in the survivors making them hesitate between helping their friends, running away, or continuing the attack. I have just taken away the initiative and bought myself 30 to 60 seconds.

I use that time to retreat to the bed room grab my long gun(which would be an M4gery) and ammo (maybe armor) and sneak out the back. Then I cut around the house and fire while moving while I take the enemy's flank. That is why I wanted them to take cover behind the vehicles, so that when I get to their aide, they are all lined up. Then I assault through their position and finish the engagement using aggression and violence of action.

Should work against anyone without an infantry background at least.
That's pretty much exactly what I was going to write.

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