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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:05 pm 
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Dabster wrote:
The concern that keeps popping into my head is that if they have put all of that effort into the intimidating frontal attack -why wouldn't they do what I think I would do in this situation? Which is, surround the area first and be prepared to shoot or capture anyone sneaking out the back.

Given this thought, I think I would call 911, grab the shotgun by the door, maybe attempt to warn them away from a position of cover and/or retreat to my fortified armory and prepare to hold out until police arrive. If 911 hears a gun battle I believe they will get there faster than normal and probably bring armored cars and helicopters.

Another concern I have is that I usually have small kids around the house. They would be on the top of my mind. If they were around, I would definitely not try to run.

If you warn your invaders the odds are good they will simply try to concentrate fire on your position, suppress you until they flank you, then light you up with you not having fired a single round.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:29 pm 
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If we have young children or the elderly or disabled then I want to change my answer. While I would be terrified, I would hope I have the stones to stay and defend them. I guess I am rounding them up in the best defensible room I have ( my bedroom) and making a stand. If they are the monsters jor-el talked about I at least want to take some out to spare others. I would try to give some of the simpler firearms to those that could use them to help.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:55 am 
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jor-el wrote:
If you warn your invaders the odds are good they will simply try to concentrate fire on your position, suppress you until they flank you, then light you up with you not having fired a single round.


Yes.

A verbal warning in this case eliminates the single real advantage that you have. The intruders do not know exactly where you are and a verbal warning gives that information.

Unless the verbal warning is part of a distraction to draw their attention away from others running in another direction, IMO you are better off either firing on them or remaining quiet behind locked doors and letting them come to you.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 12:20 pm 
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jor-el wrote:
If you warn your invaders the odds are good they will simply try to concentrate fire on your position, suppress you until they flank you, then light you up with you not having fired a single round.


I reread the first post and there is no context provided so I assumed the scenario was imagined in present (peaceful) times and not the PAW. To me it would mean you cannot just open up on people who have "wandered" onto your property because you could end up being thrown in jail after the dust settled. The fact that they are openly armed does not speak well of their intentions, lost or not.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 2:06 pm 
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teotwaki wrote:
jor-el wrote:
If you warn your invaders the odds are good they will simply try to concentrate fire on your position, suppress you until they flank you, then light you up with you not having fired a single round.


I reread the first post and there is no context provided so I assumed the scenario was imagined in present (peaceful) times and not the PAW. To me it would mean you cannot just open up on people who have "wandered" onto your property because you could end up being thrown in jail after the dust settled. The fact that they are openly armed does not speak well of their intentions, lost or not.


Actually it may. It really depends. If armed people are trying to actively make entry to your home that would fly as clear cut self defense down here. If you can even demonstrate their intent to do so that would likely work as well. There are a number of cases supporting this.

Trespassing while armed is a separate issue.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 2:18 pm 
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teotwaki wrote:
jor-el wrote:
If you warn your invaders the odds are good they will simply try to concentrate fire on your position, suppress you until they flank you, then light you up with you not having fired a single round.


I reread the first post and there is no context provided so I assumed the scenario was imagined in present (peaceful) times and not the PAW. To me it would mean you cannot just open up on people who have "wandered" onto your property because you could end up being thrown in jail after the dust settled. The fact that they are openly armed does not speak well of their intentions, lost or not.


In my case they would have had to batter down a sturdy gate to get there (criminal trespass and destruction of property) which along with openly bearing/brandishing arms is grounds (in LA and MS) to be lawfully in fear of my life. Now in the OP's post he did not say he had a gate or that the driveway was posted as private. That may change things a bit in LA or MS. Obviously in other states other laws may apply.

One of the things I would be worried about in this scenario is that there are lot of lawful hunters and they get lost and while they may be armed, grungy and odoriferous they are not maruders and are not likely to batter down a gate.

The key here in my case is that the intruders are on private property and not public property. In both states the need to retreat is gone (MS not LA) and then the reasonableness of the force you use is becomes the key factor to determining whether it is lawful or not to employ lethal force.

What is reasonable force to deal with 11 armed people suddenly showing up on your property in an unlawful manner and there is only 1 of you or you and say two toddlers?

A link to two cases not exactly the same as this but relevant to the discussion:

In both cases no charges were filed.
LA: http://www.houmatoday.com/news/20120223 ... ting-death
MS: http://www.wlox.com/story/31043023/more ... p-shooting


Edited to add: For the record I think charges are appropriate (for different reasons) in both cases but no one asked me so my opinion and $5 will get you a cup of coffee. :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:27 pm 
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teotwaki wrote:
jor-el wrote:
If you warn your invaders the odds are good they will simply try to concentrate fire on your position, suppress you until they flank you, then light you up with you not having fired a single round.


I reread the first post and there is no context provided so I assumed the scenario was imagined in present (peaceful) times and not the PAW. To me it would mean you cannot just open up on people who have "wandered" onto your property because you could end up being thrown in jail after the dust settled. The fact that they are openly armed does not speak well of their intentions, lost or not.


I'm exercising the privilege of adjusting the scenario to fit circumstances I would have created prior to the scenario start. I'm responding to my version, not the OP's.

1) As Raptor brought up after I did, I would have erected solid barriers along my property line to avoid the many ills of trespassing. Also, I would have them monitored by CCTV as well as other means I've described in earlier posts. Seyg-El, my father, had numerous issues of trespassing and burglaries due to his home and backyard being attached at rooftop level to other homes and storefronts. Also, he had a short rear fence facing onto an empty rear alley. No land of mine would have open borders.
Also, I would have outbuildings to house livestock and farming equipment and storage, and there would be an inner perimeter and fence. Because who would leave their shit out in the open? A solo farmhouse on a farm, really?

2) The OP did say this was after sunset but not night, with light snow on the ground. Gets dark real quick about now.

3) From the get-go the intruders are described as strangers, not neighbors and not friends. Wasn't specifically described, but strangers carrying guns in the hand in other than the universally known "safe" carry positions such as slung or with actions open, magazines out I would have to consider hostile.

4) I'm not going with the OP's scenario loadout because I'm already better armed than that now. I don't live in a bubble removed from reality. I would imagine most LEOs in the real world are well aware of the much more hostile working environment that exists today, and the measures we and I have had to take to ensure the safety of ourselves, our coworkers, and our families. I would venture to say most LEOs are already feeling they're at the SHTF level already, buying lowers, parts kits and .223 ammo. Good thing I've been swinging 7.62x39 and NATO lately.

People that breached my perimeter by damaging my gate or fence, showing up in gathering darkness without having announced/identified themselves prior, and carrying loaded firearms in hand and at the ready, are asking for trouble by showing up at my house.

And trouble they shall receive.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 12:02 am 
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The only things I know for certain are:
1. I don't know them
2. They are armed
3. I'm fat and slow
4. Bullets are small and really fast.

I'm staying put. In my AO, if I fired first(and survived) in this scenario its very unlikely that I would face any charges

That said, there's a prison not terribly far from here. Several years ago I was stopped on the way to work so LE could check under the bed cover of my truck for an escaped prisoner. We've also had a manhunt for another fugitive through here in the not too distant past. I don't know everybody in the county and I'd feel pretty shitty if I shot a neighbor checking up on me and mine. Granted with the dawn of cell phones, text alerts and social media the odds of this have diminished, but its not out of the question around here.

Descriptions of the vehicles and occupants are pretty vague. Does this look like a farm truck or a mobile meth lab? What's the tooth to tattoo ratio?

I guess I'll watch how they handle the dogs and go from there.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 12:37 am 
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I can play that too.

My ranch is now located in Arizona.

For my scenario I own a pre-1986 Faithful 50 and I will just open up on the fools on my front lawn with as much ammo as it takes to turn them into a smoking pile of scum. Then I'll go back to eating dinner....


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:20 pm 
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Call police, hide, take pictures with phone.

Riskier would be to wait until they go inside and quietly disable their vehicles (if left unattended) or shoot the guy with the vehicles from inside the tree line. Then run and let the police deal with the remainder.

It could make a pretty good "B" movie to have a bunch of home invaders stuck in a cabin in the woods while the owner picks them off from outside, one by one.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 5:33 pm 
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Black Beard wrote:
Call police, hide, take pictures with phone.

Riskier would be to wait until they go inside and quietly disable their vehicles (if left unattended) or shoot the guy with the vehicles from inside the tree line. Then run and let the police deal with the remainder.

It could make a pretty good "B" movie to have a bunch of home invaders stuck in a cabin in the woods while the owner picks them off from outside, one by one.


It's been done a number of times. Charles Bronson was well known in the genre with:

Death Hunt - Nearly the same scenario as here (a true story) with Albert Johnson driving off his nine attackers and their 42 dogs then picking off the pursuers through the Yukon (this is actually a pretty good movie);
Chato's Land - The scenario you describe with Bronson picking off the attackers through protracted campaign in the desert (fictional);
Mr. Majestyk - Bronson is a watermelon farmer beset by evil (uses a Winchester 1200 12 GA);
Messenger of Death - Bronson is not home when the hit team shows up and things go poorly.

I am sure there are others he did as well. Bronson was best known for his Death Wish movies but he did dozens of "B" action movies only a few of which were war movies and Westerns. If you like the grind house genre with less gratuitous violence he has a whole archive of them.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:25 am 
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I'll adapt the scenario to my circumstances.

If I am alone, I'd get armed and run for it. There is only one way for vehicles to get to my house (mountain on two sides and a stream on the other), so if I cross the stream and go up the mountain on the other side of it, I won't have to worry about being chased down by gunmen in their vehicles.

If my family is here, I'd barricade. I'd first call 911, then call my neighbor (a good friend and Army vet). Then I'd stick my AR out the window and bump-fire to keep their heads down while my neighbor closes in from behind with his AR. Sometimes prepping is forming good relationships with the neighbors.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:23 am 
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Thanks Stercutus. Going to have to get a couple of them.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:36 pm 
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Driving habits must be very different in my region than in most of yours. In my area a car and a truck pulling up indicate 3, maybe 4 people max.

I only know a few old timers that still keep shotguns by the door. Almost everyone I know has shifted to something on an AR platform (or equivalent) for dealing with varmints (generally 4 legged, but for 2 as well). So I'm comfortable adjusting the scenario to assume I have something equivalent.

If I don't recognize any of these people, I think I'm obligated to greet them politely first. My property isn't barricaded like some people here, so I have no ethical or legal grounds to just open fire. I can be polite with a rifle in my hands though. Even 4 to 1, most vultures will move on from an obviously armed and ready opponent, especially as they have no idea what backup I may have.

If world or life scenarios take an unusual extreme shift and I think these people are specifically hunting me, I don't see much value in running. I think I'm better off shooting first. Modern weapons can be a massive force multiplier if you're the first one to open up. Running out back just means I get ambushed by the guy they undoubtedly have waiting for me there. I'm helpless against that guy cause I can't see him.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:09 pm 
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Apparently someone must have read the OP and decided to make it a plan. And decided to do it in the city of Huseton. Defending team apparently did not have a gun, did have three kids and drugs.

http://abc13.com/news/west-road-in-nort ... e/1683042/

LEOs took and sent no shots, no casualties and no arrests. BTW, 5 to 10 perps.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:09 pm 
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I can't run, so I'll have to barricade and shoot. One corner of my bedroom is equipped as my Last Stand Corner.

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