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 Post subject: No Guns here
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 1:06 pm 
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Being in Scotland, uk and the availability of guns being close to nil, as well as a new air gun rule about to become enforceable making them illegal to own without a licence and a licence needing the same police application as shotguns and rifles, I've been giving some thought on what the best possible self defence scenarios are should the likes of Russia decide to attack our nearby airbase and everyone flees in panic. (or any one of many other possible scenarios)

Firstly, if it was a nuclear attack i'm right within range despite being in the Scottish mountains so despite me having a fallout shelter I think my best option is to head South West if there was enough warning, if not... Well, the shelter it is. An old concrete bunker 20 foot underground that I have prepped. However if it was less serious then i'm right bang in farming and deer stalking country. Although i am not advocating theft, if all the local aristocracy and farmers were to high tail it out of here what is left is a plethora of farms and several large lockups containing rifles, shotguns and ammunition. The best bet would be to clear them out and make several stockpiles in my various bug out places before surveying the land and deciding on a property to hole up in that is suitable.

The community here is very sparse and there is no real reason I can think of for them to invade over the hills as there is simply nothing to invade (unless they want some castles) however surviving long term from the land I need guns and it is the only solution I can think of, crossbows aside. (no licence needed)

Would you say it is fair game to loot these places assuming they are emptied and it is every man for himself?

(A plus point, perhaps, we have plenty whisky here)

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 Post subject: Re: No Guns here
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 1:25 pm 
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The whisky got me thinking upon reasons to invade this sparse place, there are castles, stately homes, mansions, all of which can be used for various organisations HQ or defended fortresses, as well as whisky bonds which store vast, and i mean VAST quantities of whisky under tight security. So perhaps there are some reasons to come oor the hills into tcheuchter land.

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 Post subject: Re: No Guns here
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 2:03 pm 
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There has never been, nor will there be, a scenario discussed here that justified looting. We simply don't talk about it.

That said what about the tried and true tactic of painting yourself blue and running full tilt at the invaders waving axes and swords, and screaming at the top of your lungs (possibly masturbating too, historians are still out on that one.) That seems to have worked well in past and doesn't require any sort of licensing that I'm aware of.

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 Post subject: Re: No Guns here
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 2:17 pm 
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yossarian wrote:
There has never been, nor will there be, a scenario discussed here that justified looting. We simply don't talk about it.

That said what about the tried and true tactic of painting yourself blue and running full tilt at the invaders waving axes and swords, and screaming at the top of your lungs (possibly masturbating too, historians are still out on that one.) That seems to have worked well in past and doesn't require any sort of licensing that I'm aware of.


Interesting reply, and yes a quandary for me. No access to guns, empty farmhouses containing guns + food and they are to be ignored whilst I forage, set traps and fish. I guess it depends on your definition of looting, the normal use of the terminology brings up visions of street riots and windows being smashed for televisions and the likes. Contrary to your statement of no scenario discussed here it is one I have often thought of, so perhaps a personal scenario. Is it still looting if the occupier has long moved or died?

Oh I have no doubt we could start little clans and go back to the old days, and I am sure one day in the future we will, but less likely in my lifetime although I will keep my little tins of blue chalk handy in my daysack in case technology and manufacturing break down and face painting becomes the new thing. Might hold back on the masturbating though, according to many a football coach it is best to go in with a full load than an empty sack.

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 Post subject: Re: No Guns here
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 2:29 pm 
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Warpigs wrote:
Is it still looting if the occupier has long moved or died?


For the sake of avoiding gray areas and loopholes that could lead to discussion of illegal activities, looting has a pretty broad definition here.

Additionally, its poor strategy. If you don't have possession of it now you have little control over who gets to it first. You also can't rotate and replenish it or practice using it. The general consensus is that its better to focus on obtaining skills, equipment and supplies for yourself so that those problems are diminished or avoided.

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 Post subject: Re: No Guns here
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 2:32 pm 
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Sure, once you conclude the owners aren't around and have personally declared an "every man for himself" situation is in effect, then looting is fair game.


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 Post subject: Re: No Guns here
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 2:36 pm 
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What process did the farmers go through to obtain their firearms? Couldn't you go through the same process to obtain your own?


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 Post subject: Re: No Guns here
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 2:41 pm 
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yossarian wrote:
Warpigs wrote:
Is it still looting if the occupier has long moved or died?


For the sake of avoiding gray areas and loopholes that could lead to discussion of illegal activities, looting has a pretty broad definition here.

Additionally, its poor strategy. If you don't have possession of it now you have little control over who gets to it first. You also can't rotate and replenish it or practice using it. The general consensus is that its better to focus on obtaining skills, equipment and supplies for yourself so that those problems are diminished or avoided.


I'm new here although I did take the time to look over the rules carefully so I take what you are saying on board alongside what I read. I am in no way advocating theft or looting and thank you for bringing it to my attention that it is a subject that needs very careful consideration before broaching.

I'm afraid I disagree in part. I can do my best with what resources I have available, and indeed I have studied both urban and outdoor survival in depth for 2 decades as well as living a semi sustainable lifestyle out in the hills, but as a strategy I would be foolish not to consider resources that are currently unavailable but may in the future become obtainable. All aspects need considered so I politely refute your suggestion that observing the local resources is poor strategy.

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Last edited by Warpigs on Fri Nov 11, 2016 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: No Guns here
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 2:43 pm 
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quazi wrote:
What process did the farmers go through to obtain their firearms? Couldn't you go through the same process to obtain your own?


Yes I can, which I may or may not pass depending on the suitability of my home for storing guns and ammo separately and in locked units and some very very good reasons for owning the fireams. Along side that you are limited to how much ammunition you may store so obtaining more would be a necessity quite quickly.

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 Post subject: Re: No Guns here
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 2:48 pm 
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I feel sorry for the mods this week, they are BUSY.... and some of that is my fault. :(

Looting is looting. If you don't own it, it is theft. We discuss prepping so we don't have to resort to 'foraging'. You have a great bunker set up, one the rest of us would love to have. Stock it. And then stock it some more. And if you have any doubt, keep stocking it.

The realities of a PAW with lack of Government, LE, or the neighborhood store are known to all of us here. And I can assure you that we will all do what we have to to survive.

But there is a huge difference between not discussing those realities and saying, "hey, when the Russkies attack, I'll just seize one of these castles with its huge whiskey stores."

IMHO: Prepping for foraging, any definition of foraging, is not really prepping.

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 Post subject: Re: No Guns here
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 2:55 pm 
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Thank you for your reply Hiroshima

We have great resources to hand here that I collect weekly for my own use, I have the seashores 15 miles away, mountains within walking distance and forests in abundance. I am a huge advocate of foraging and hunting as well as storage prepping. We have crystal clear water supplies, fuel and food everywhere that I do not have to store and has no expiration date. it may not be to everyone's liking but it is a resource I am happy to understand and a skill which will indeed come in handy if ever it is needed.

I did not mean to cause moderators any work with this post so if i have overstepped the forum boundaries I do offer my apologies.

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 Post subject: Re: No Guns here
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 3:00 pm 
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Call me Hiro, it's shorter to type.

Most of us here will agree that learning pre-industrial and pre-agrarian skills are part of being prepared. Clean water, game, berries and timber that can be harvested are great resources. But what I was saying that you shouldn't rely fully on those alone though. I'm glad to hear that you do not.

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 Post subject: Re: No Guns here
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 3:14 pm 
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Hiroshima_Morphine wrote:
Call me Hiro, it's shorter to type.


Hi Hiro, yes much easier!

Absolutely agreed. On exiting my abode and heading for my bug out places the last thing I will want to do is start foraging, foraging in the main is to supplement or "survive". Just one of many considerations which help for long term survival. We (a few of us) have stocked areas running around 250 miles so even on foot it is possible to know you are always within a day of fresh food and kit, the last thing i want to do is catch and skin a deer to make hide and build a tent due to lack of preparation.

I will need to participate and read a lot more of the forum as the terminology used is quite unfamiliar to me, particularly the abbreviations. I foresee some Googling will be in order to catch up.

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 Post subject: Re: No Guns here
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 3:20 pm 
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Here is a start:

PAW - post apocalyptic world
LE - law enforcement

SHTF - s--- hits the fan

TEOT(F)WAWKI - the end of the (f----ing) world as we know it

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 Post subject: Re: No Guns here
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 3:59 pm 
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War pigs: I sent you a PM. You should be able to link to it from the upper left hand corner of your screen.

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 Post subject: Re: No Guns here
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 4:48 pm 
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No looting discussions allowed.

This thread should help you Warpigs http://www.zombiehunters.org/forum/view ... 80&t=46928

Also check the entire Hall of Fame it's a great resource with lots of information.

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 Post subject: Re: No Guns here
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 5:27 pm 
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Here's a list of acronyms that might be useful: https://www.zombiehunters.org/wiki/index.php/Abbreviations_&_Acronyms

I wonder how much lingo is shared between British and North American survivalists? I've never visited a UK-centric preparedness website.


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 Post subject: Re: No Guns here
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 5:27 pm 
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Hiroshima_Morphine wrote:
Here is a start:

PAW - post apocalyptic world
LE - law enforcement

SHTF - s--- hits the fan

TEOT(F)WAWKI - the end of the (f----ing) world as we know it


I really can't figure out how to search ZS's wiki pages but after about 10 minutes I found the Abbreviations & Acronyms reference page ['cause i knew it was somewhere] for whatever you guys are PMing about. It has everything.

https://www.zombiehunters.org/wiki/index.php/Abbreviations_%26_Acronyms

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 Post subject: Re: No Guns here
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 5:40 pm 
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the_alias wrote:
No looting discussions allowed.

This thread should help you Warpigs http://www.zombiehunters.org/forum/view ... 80&t=46928

Also check the entire Hall of Fame it's a great resource with lots of information.


Thanks - yup i think I've gotten the message on that one. I really was not referring to looting but from what I gather from users and mods it really is a rule that cannot be skirted around so I've taken that on board and understand. We could argue definitions all day but when it comes down to it there is a rule in place and looking back it is me that misinterpreted the rules, as such I shall be more careful and indeed, avoid the subject in its entirety!

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 Post subject: Re: No Guns here
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 5:44 pm 
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Thank you both MacWa77ace and Quazi. I've already had to use Google a few times so i'll bookmark this page :-)

I'm not sure there are many well used UK forums but I could be wrong, my guess would be they both use similar abbreviations with obvious geographical differences. A learning process, a few I do like very much!

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 Post subject: Re: No Guns here
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:03 pm 
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Warpigs wrote:
the_alias wrote:
No looting discussions allowed.

This thread should help you Warpigs http://www.zombiehunters.org/forum/view ... 80&t=46928

Also check the entire Hall of Fame it's a great resource with lots of information.


Thanks - yup i think I've gotten the message on that one. I really was not referring to looting but from what I gather from users and mods it really is a rule that cannot be skirted around so I've taken that on board and understand. We could argue definitions all day but when it comes down to it there is a rule in place and looking back it is me that misinterpreted the rules, as such I shall be more careful and indeed, avoid the subject in its entirety!

No harm, no foul. I understand your intention was not to be disruptive :)

There are also some other UK members around who might appear to chime in on their plans/options.

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 Post subject: Re: No Guns here
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:09 pm 
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the_alias wrote:
No looting discussions allowed.

This thread should help you Warpigs http://www.zombiehunters.org/forum/view ... 80&t=46928

Also check the entire Hall of Fame it's a great resource with lots of information.


I just noticed, having clicked on the link, that the post was referring to UK firearms. So thank you for that, there have been quite a few changes recently which may not have been reflected in that post so it will be interesting to go through it and the .gov.uk resources here to see what is current still and what has changed.

The most recent change is with airguns which comes into full effect on the 31st of December 2016, which essentially places the same restrictions and licensing on ownership as with firearms. As an owner of 3 airguns I may as well now apply for a full licence which I am unlikely to get. As such I am going to have to sell all 3 before the 31st or have to hand them in to the local police station/or sell. The easiest solution is to join a firing range, the other is to get permission for shooting "vermin" on the local lairds estate but both are not a given. I am really not sure currently though how restrictive they are going to be until I apply.

I can own as many crossbows and impact bolts as i wish though, just not for hunting!

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 Post subject: Re: No Guns here
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:03 pm 
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Warpigs wrote:
Being in Scotland, uk and the availability of guns being close to nil, as well as a new air gun rule about to become enforceable making them illegal to own without a licence and a licence needing the same police application as shotguns and rifles, I've been giving some thought on what the best possible self defence scenarios are should the likes of Russia decide to attack our nearby airbase and everyone flees in panic. (or any one of many other possible scenarios)

Firstly, if it was a nuclear attack i'm right within range despite being in the Scottish mountains so despite me having a fallout shelter I think my best option is to head South West if there was enough warning, if not... Well, the shelter it is. An old concrete bunker 20 foot underground that I have prepped. However if it was less serious then i'm right bang in farming and deer stalking country. Although i am not advocating theft, if all the local aristocracy and farmers were to high tail it out of here what is left is a plethora of farms and several large lockups containing rifles, shotguns and ammunition. The best bet would be to clear them out and make several stockpiles in my various bug out places before surveying the land and deciding on a property to hole up in that is suitable.

The community here is very sparse and there is no real reason I can think of for them to invade over the hills as there is simply nothing to invade (unless they want some castles) however surviving long term from the land I need guns and it is the only solution I can think of, crossbows aside. (no licence needed)

Would you say it is fair game to loot these places assuming they are emptied and it is every man for himself?

(A plus point, perhaps, we have plenty whisky here)


Warpig,

Your question aside, you are one of the rare ducks to have a real, live fall out shelter. Can you tell us about it? Can you tell us how you got it?

Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: No Guns here
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:39 pm 
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Ignoring the illegalities of looting for a moment, what makes you think you can operate an unfamiliar firearm, let alone load it with the correct ammunition, or clean and lubricate it?

Do you have prior training on operation and deployment of a rifle/pistol/shotgun ?

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