Choose an APC during war.

Discuss those "what if" or "what would you do" scenarios you've been wondering about.

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Okay, we did it with tanks now choose your APC

US M113- light so good MPG but lightly armored and topheavy
7
30%
US Stryker- well protected but heavy so may run out of fuel
5
22%
UK Warrior- Fast and well armored but only carries 7
3
13%
German Boxer- well protected but light on offense and complex
1
4%
Russian BTR 80- amphibious and well armored including NBC only holds seven and soldiers have to exit from the side
7
30%
Israeli Namer- based on a Merkava frame it uses tank treads and is the most heavily armored, but fuel is an issue.
0
No votes
Chinese WZ551- can carry 11 soldiers but offensive weaponry isn't great and its uses old technology.
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 23

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Re: Choose an APC during war.

Post by taipan821 » Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:34 am

LowKey wrote:
Jungles of the wet sort tend to swallow the APCs on a regular basis.
Forests limit their mobility, line of sight, and present a whole lot more concealment for ambushes against them.
remarkably that was the general attitude of people when Australia deployed Centurion tanks to vietnam. remarkably the easiest solution for all of those problems was for the lead tank to have a 20pdr canister round up the spout at all times.

"we're being fired upon but we can't see *BOOM* now we can see everything!" Also nothing is more scary then an armoured vehicle crashing through the jungle at speed.

In addition during 1999-2012 Australia has been operating APCs in jungle environments in East Timor. you just have to have an APC that can swim and is small enough.
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Re: Choose an APC during war.

Post by The Twizzler » Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:12 pm

While America hasn't ever embraced the jungle tank they did deploy these to Vietnam.
M50 Ontos- It means Thing in Greek, carried six 106 mm recoilless rifle and a 30 cal MG. As it only weighed 10 tons initially it could be brought in by air. It was a tank killer in a war where there were no opposing tanks. The Marines loved them as they were very mobile and used the new Flechette rounds. You could fire all six guns in rapid succesion throwing out thousands of felchettes. Only problem was it could only carry 18 rounds and the loader had to get out of the vehicle to reload.
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Re: Choose an APC during war.

Post by The Twizzler » Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:59 pm

Which APC's do they use in East Timor? Also what tank is Australia currently using and are both the same as New Zealand. We don't hear a lot of info about that part of the world. I just assumed you used Kamikaze Drones piloted by Koalas.
Image
taipan821 wrote:
LowKey wrote:
Jungles of the wet sort tend to swallow the APCs on a regular basis.
Forests limit their mobility, line of sight, and present a whole lot more concealment for ambushes against them.
remarkably that was the general attitude of people when Australia deployed Centurion tanks to vietnam. remarkably the easiest solution for all of those problems was for the lead tank to have a 20pdr canister round up the spout at all times.

"we're being fired upon but we can't see *BOOM* now we can see everything!" Also nothing is more scary then an armoured vehicle crashing through the jungle at speed.

In addition during 1999-2012 Australia has been operating APCs in jungle environments in East Timor. you just have to have an APC that can swim and is small enough.
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Re: Choose an APC during war.

Post by Norwegian » Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:28 pm

The Twizzler wrote:Yea I debated on whether to include the Cv90/40 or the Namer. I choose the Namer as it has seen combat and outside of scandanavia the Cv90/40 isn't used by other countries to my knowledge while the Namer has been bought by some South American countries. Fun fact about the CV90/40 the 40mm Bofurs gun is installed upside down on the vehicle.
CV90/40-can carry 8 soldiers, 40mm bofurs cannon is very simmilar to WW2 German 43 Flak gun, also has a 7.62 mg, and 6 grenade lauchers that can fire smoke grrnades or anti personell grenades, weighs in at 35 tons.
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Apathy wrote:the m113 err Gavin is the best ifv/apc/tank/airplane ever. And anyone who disagrees with me is a narcissist!

Why no CV90/40?
The CV 90 has seen combat in Afghanistan, both in Norwegian and Danish service. The CV 90/30NF1 would me by choice, mainly for the mobility in soft terrain.

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Re: Choose an APC during war.

Post by The Twizzler » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:45 am

I didn't know that. Thanks for the info :D . Any knowledge on how the Bofurs cannon performed? It kinda reminded me of the ill fated anti air US army Alvin York from the 80's. The guns were sound, but the radar suite was garbage. It would sometimes read the barrels as approaching aircraft and the top speed was 35 mph which was quite less than the tanks it was supposed to defend.
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Norwegian wrote:
The Twizzler wrote:Yea I debated on whether to include the Cv90/40 or the Namer. I choose the Namer as it has seen combat and outside of scandanavia the Cv90/40 isn't used by other countries to my knowledge while the Namer has been bought by some South American countries. Fun fact about the CV90/40 the 40mm Bofurs gun is installed upside down on the vehicle.
CV90/40-can carry 8 soldiers, 40mm bofurs cannon is very simmilar to WW2 German 43 Flak gun, also has a 7.62 mg, and 6 grenade lauchers that can fire smoke grrnades or anti personell grenades, weighs in at 35 tons.
Image

Apathy wrote:the m113 err Gavin is the best ifv/apc/tank/airplane ever. And anyone who disagrees with me is a narcissist!

Why no CV90/40?
The CV 90 has seen combat in Afghanistan, both in Norwegian and Danish service. The CV 90/30NF1 would me by choice, mainly for the mobility in soft terrain.

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Re: Choose an APC during war.

Post by RoneKiln » Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:03 am

quazi wrote:Mars Pattern Rhino. I'd be tempted to go with a Chimera, but the Rhino was designed to be easy for one person to operate. Plus you just can't beat that STC design.
I'll take their land raider over the rhino. Preferably with the AI upgrade to help with piloting. :clap:
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Re: Choose an APC during war.

Post by Norwegian » Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:24 pm

The Twizzler wrote:I didn't know that. Thanks for the info :D . Any knowledge on how the Bofurs cannon performed? It kinda reminded me of the ill fated anti air US army Alvin York from the 80's. The guns were sound, but the radar suite was garbage. It would sometimes read the barrels as approaching aircraft and the top speed was 35 mph which was quite less than the tanks it was supposed to defend.
Image

Norwegian wrote:
The Twizzler wrote:Yea I debated on whether to include the Cv90/40 or the Namer. I choose the Namer as it has seen combat and outside of scandanavia the Cv90/40 isn't used by other countries to my knowledge while the Namer has been bought by some South American countries. Fun fact about the CV90/40 the 40mm Bofurs gun is installed upside down on the vehicle.
CV90/40-can carry 8 soldiers, 40mm bofurs cannon is very simmilar to WW2 German 43 Flak gun, also has a 7.62 mg, and 6 grenade lauchers that can fire smoke grrnades or anti personell grenades, weighs in at 35 tons.
Image

Apathy wrote:the m113 err Gavin is the best ifv/apc/tank/airplane ever. And anyone who disagrees with me is a narcissist!

Why no CV90/40?
The CV 90 has seen combat in Afghanistan, both in Norwegian and Danish service. The CV 90/30NF1 would me by choice, mainly for the mobility in soft terrain.

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No idea :( I read your comment that it had not seen combat, but remember it had as it was in the news quite a bit when the driver was killed when a norwegian one hit an IED som years ago, so I googled it. Wikipedia has some good info.

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Re: Choose an APC during war.

Post by Aikibiker » Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:47 am

Whichever one has best comms/netwarfare gear and sensors.
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Re: Choose an APC during war.

Post by Hiroshima_Morphine » Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:08 am

In a PAW- fuel will be an issue for any gas/petrol engine. It's a little less of an issue with diesel (I've explained my views on this in other threads.)

Troop capacity: exactly how many people do you plan to field? Every soldier is an extra mouth you have to prep for. I also think you will be hard pressed to find 7 capable warriors to field in an APC before the gas and diesel currently in existence runs out.

As crazy as this sounds, if something happened right now that put us in a PAW- I think steam punk would become a reality.

My vote is a cast iron, steam powered ATV.
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Re: Choose an APC during war.

Post by Boom40mm » Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:16 am

Hiroshima_Morphine wrote:In a PAW- fuel will be an issue for any gas/petrol engine. It's a little less of an issue with diesel (I've explained my views on this in other threads.)

Troop capacity: exactly how many people do you plan to field? Every soldier is an extra mouth you have to prep for. I also think you will be hard pressed to find 7 capable warriors to field in an APC before the gas and diesel currently in existence runs out.

As crazy as this sounds, if something happened right now that put us in a PAW- I think steam punk would become a reality.

My vote is a cast iron, steam powered ATV.
The OP gave an intro for the scenario. None of it included the PAW, but your concerns are valid within your own context.

I chose the BTR due to it's lighter weight (than some) and amphibious capabilities though I don't like that the gun isn't stabilized OR that it could be mistaken for an enemy vehicle (depending on the belligerents of said conflict.) The big flat bottom likely helps with displacement but would be terrible if struck by a mine/IED.

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Re: Choose an APC during war.

Post by Hiroshima_Morphine » Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:26 am

Boom40mm wrote:
Hiroshima_Morphine wrote:In a PAW- fuel will be an issue for any gas/petrol engine. It's a little less of an issue with diesel (I've explained my views on this in other threads.)

Troop capacity: exactly how many people do you plan to field? Every soldier is an extra mouth you have to prep for. I also think you will be hard pressed to find 7 capable warriors to field in an APC before the gas and diesel currently in existence runs out.

As crazy as this sounds, if something happened right now that put us in a PAW- I think steam punk would become a reality.

My vote is a cast iron, steam powered ATV.
The OP gave an intro for the scenario. None of it included the PAW, but your concerns are valid within your own context.

I chose the BTR due to it's lighter weight (than some) and amphibious capabilities though I don't like that the gun isn't stabilized OR that it could be mistaken for an enemy vehicle (depending on the belligerents of said conflict.) The big flat bottom likely helps with displacement but would be terrible if struck by a mine/IED.
Goes back and reads OP.

Ah, well, shame on me for assuming we were talking about a PAW scenario on a website dedicated to preparing for a PAW scenario. :mrgreen:

I went with the BTR as well but mostly because of NBC filtration built in.
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Re: Choose an APC during war.

Post by The Twizzler » Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:50 pm

Boom- yea that version of the BTR ( the most popular version) is deathtrap when it comes to mines. It's probably a little better than the M113 and a lot better than the Chinese APC. The best one out of the bunch for mines is definitely the boxer.

Fun fact (maybe)- I can't prove it but I am pretty sure the German Boxer is the vehicle model they used for the Aliens movie, when they bring the space marines into the nuclear reactor building and then Ripley drives it through a wall on the way out.

Hiroshima- a lot of the other apc units have NBC or at least the N and the C. Mind you, just because the governments that issue apc units to the troops are saying this doesn't make it a sure thing. I would think biologics would be the hardest to protect from.
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Re: Choose an APC during war.

Post by LowKey » Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:43 pm

The Twizzler wrote:
Fun fact (maybe)- I can't prove it but I am pretty sure the German Boxer is the vehicle model they used for the Aliens movie, when they bring the space marines into the nuclear reactor building and then Ripley drives it through a wall on the way out.
Not even close. :lol:
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Re: Choose an APC during war.

Post by KillerForHire » Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:53 am

An Amphibious Al Fahd, darn things less than 6ft high without a turret.

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Re: Choose an APC during war.

Post by ais4122 » Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:53 pm

M113A2 all the way. Lots of room like the family station wagon. We're fighting the ZPAW not WWIII. Zed ain't climbing up the side of my track.
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Re: Choose an APC during war.

Post by drop bear » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:25 pm

Can I just boom around in a toyota. At least it has aircon.

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Re: Choose an APC during war.

Post by Hiroshima_Morphine » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:14 am

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There is a saying in the marketing world that goes something like, 'there's no such thing as bad publicity.' The concept being anytime your product is mentioned by someone you didn't pay is a plus- regardless of the context in which the product was mentioned.

But I have often wondered how a Toyota feels about that. :clap:

ETA: (and I hope this isn't inappropriate) did anybody else notice the 'Ethnic European' sitting in the center of the photo next to the cab?
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Re: Choose an APC during war.

Post by AK49er » Sun Apr 02, 2017 4:13 am

drop bear wrote:Can I just boom around in a toyota. At least it has aircon.

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Seriously, armored Landcrusiers are the shit. And as Top Gear found, you can't kill a HiLux
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Re: Choose an APC during war.

Post by The Twizzler » Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:09 pm

I have no personal experience with armored civilian vehicles, that said I would think a 308 to the radiator is gonna mean you aren't getting far.
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Re: Choose an APC during war.

Post by NamelessStain » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:06 am

A classic is never a bad thing since they are still used in some armies across the world... so ..

I would add the BMP series


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMP-3
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMP-2
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMP-1


I liked the very low profile on the 1.
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Re: Choose an APC during war.

Post by ais4122 » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:32 pm

Oh, by the way. The M113 is an APC. The Stryker and Bradley are AFVs. The M113 is a troop transport not a fighting vehicle.
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Re: Choose an APC during war.

Post by NT2C » Sat Sep 29, 2018 10:00 pm

The Twizzler wrote:
Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:09 pm
I have no personal experience with armored civilian vehicles, that said I would think a 308 to the radiator is gonna mean you aren't getting far.
Depends on the motor. I personally have witnessed a Chrysler 225 cu.in. slant 6 run for over 40 hours continuously with nothing but fuel. No oil, no coolant. Bolted to an engine stand in the pits at Englishtown back in the late 70s and kept running through one of the nationals (can't remember which one now).
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Re: Choose an APC during war.

Post by drop bear » Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:49 am

Does the Toyota hilux (choice of the Taliban) count?

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