The Price of Intervention

Discuss those "what if" or "what would you do" scenarios you've been wondering about.

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Stercutus
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The Price of Intervention

Post by Stercutus » Fri May 06, 2016 5:51 pm

I have been seeing this more in the news lately. A CCL person sees a crime being committed and steps in to prevent said crime or stop a criminal with tragic personal results.

http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2016/05/06/fune ... walgreens/

I don't really want to get into the tactics of the situation since we have no idea what they were. I will say that an armed gun man who has displayed violent intent by shooting someone in a public place would likely be dealt with differently by the police than by someone not police.

If you are going to intervene you have to weigh the price of your kids growing up without a parent and the toll on anyone else who may miss you versus whatever good you think you are accomplishing. I think most people don't give this enough serious thought when they start to carry a gun for personal defense.

I am not arguing for or against intervention, I am just saying you need to think realistically about your chances and likely outcomes. Because when the time comes you need to be fully ready for whatever comes.

So if you are in front of Walgreens and you see a man shoot a woman in the leg and run off what do you do?
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Re: The Price of Intervention

Post by raptor » Fri May 06, 2016 6:12 pm

In answer to witnessing a shooting I would draw my CCW find a defensive position behind cover and be a good witness. Unless it was absolutely necessary I would not engage the target, unless I was attacked.

I would make noise and make sure the thug knew I was armed and watching but getting into a shooting incident is not something I would recommend.

I would also call 911 and try to be the best witness for the LEOs I could be under the circumstances.

In NOLA we have had a depressing number of unarmed citizens getting killed trying to stop violent felons.

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Re: The Price of Intervention

Post by Maeklos » Fri May 06, 2016 6:44 pm

raptor wrote:In answer to witnessing a shooting I would draw my CCW find a defensive position behind cover and be a good witness. Unless it was absolutely necessary I would not engage the target, unless I was attacked.
+1. The only time I would consider direct intervention if my life wasn't directly affected is if the armed individual appeared about to shoot someone else. Otherwise, like raptor says, look, listen, watch, call 911, and provide whatever aid you can to the injured people in situ.
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Re: The Price of Intervention

Post by TheWarriorMax » Sat May 07, 2016 12:26 am

I was part of an enthusiastic discussion about the 11 year old who shot a burglar then told media he cried like a girl.

Kid shot when the guy was out of the house and climbing a fence ie not a threat and fired 8 times before hitting anything.

My view is this is not a good example of defensive firearms use.

Your firearm is to defend your life. Not a superpower to let you charge in like batman.
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Re: The Price of Intervention

Post by flybynight » Sat May 07, 2016 8:43 am

You are not the police. A ccl is for defense of life only. So intervention only to save a life.
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Re: The Price of Intervention

Post by LowKey » Sat May 07, 2016 12:39 pm

In the HIGHLY unlikely of me being in such a situation...
Is someone still in danger of death, maiming, or serious injury?
Then I shoot the attacker, preferably from cover.
I have legal insurance.
I no longer have any major assets as I put that stuff into trusts.
The law in my home jurisdiction, and of any jurisdiction in which I would even walk out of the airport, support me using lethal force to defend myself or others from such attacks.
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Re: The Price of Intervention

Post by RoneKiln » Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:59 am

I see no value in engaging someone that is fleeing.

I think I would rather risk my family losing me than risk teaching them other people aren't worth standing up for and taking risks for. My Dad always gave rides to hitchhikers and stopped to help people in need. I'm real grateful he did. He taught me to look out for people. In return, they tend to look out for me. It's amazing how people have always come out in force to help me out when I'm down on my luck. I want to pass that down to my kids as well. People aren't likely to look out for them if they don't learn to watch out for people first.
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Re: The Price of Intervention

Post by the_alias » Sun Oct 30, 2016 9:29 am

So if you are in front of Walgreens and you see a man shoot a woman in the leg and run off what do you do?
Ok by run off I assume run away and basically heads out of sight/distance. My priority then would actually be to helping the injured person instead of playing "chase the bad guy". I'd feel bad not helping her she is an immediate victim I can help.

From distance dial 911 report as much information as possible and request ambulance.

Check surrounding, approach woman who has been shot and break out my first aid kit and more than likely really concentrate on applying a TQ correctly and then working to deal with the shock she is probably going into.
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Re: The Price of Intervention

Post by JayceSlayn » Sun Oct 30, 2016 6:12 pm

I would agree that many people who carry concealed firearms do not give enough thought into the kinds of situations in which they would consider actually using them.

I wholeheartedly agree that you should never use (or even possibly brandish) a firearm outside of a situation in which your life is in immediate mortal danger from an attacker. We could extend this principle to some degree to cover protecting anyone whom you know and are willing to stake your own life upon protecting (i.e. a family member), but outside of that, it starts to get hairy again. In some States it is legally defensible to "stand your ground", but I like to first encourage someone to "Run, Hide, Fight", in that order as: "Run until you can't run anymore, Hide until you can't hide anymore, and then Fight until you can't fight anymore". Obviously, calling authorities and rendering aid once it is safe to do so, is also a good step somewhere in that process.

Even in the case of you witnessing a stranger getting shot by another stranger, and you decide to draw a weapon against the attacker: consider another concealed carry holder just arriving around the corner. What do they now see? Two people with guns, hearing gunshots, and someone injured. Who will they shoot? How do they know you are the "good guy"? The same can be said of a police officer arriving under the same circumstances. By engaging in this situation, you are going to be in some kind of trouble (temporary or lasting) either way.

Aside from the complications in the moment, one should also consider that, provided you are lucky enough to survive the engagement, there will always be a tomorrow, and there will be consequences beyond just that moment. If you shoot someone, regardless of its legality in your locale, you can expect to be put through a minimum of some interrogation and paperwork, if not a full trial over your actions.

I agree with the "you aren't a superhero" comment. Some people seem to think that their perception is infallible (that they will know the identity and intentions of the attacker/defender), and it will be obvious to everyone that they are the "good guy" in such a moment. In reality, I think the likelihood of that being the case is quite slim.
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Re: The Price of Intervention

Post by TacAir » Sun Oct 30, 2016 6:25 pm

"So if you are in front of Walgreens and you see a man shoot a woman in the leg and run off what do you do?"

Call 911 and report issue - ask for EMTs.

Since it is Wallgreens, go inside and ask if they have a FAK. My auto FAK isn't good as a blow-out kit.

Hang to see if the fuzz want any additional details

I'd stay completely away from the media.

Once home, have a soda and see if the shooting hit the funny papers - many here do not..
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