What side are you on?

Discuss those "what if" or "what would you do" scenarios you've been wondering about.

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Jeriah
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Re: What side are you on?

Post by Jeriah » Tue Sep 30, 2014 3:17 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:In the absence of clear moral guidelines, who's hiring and who pays better?
Operating under the assumption that a.) you have a choice (i.e. it's not a race war or other division you fall into automatically), and b.) neither side is particularly more morally abhorrent than the other, then this kind of pragmatism makes a lot of sense. One thing that hasn't been mentioned about it, though, or maybe it's just been taken as so obvious a part of this equation that it needn't even be mentioned, is the question of, "Who looks more likely to win?"

There are two cautionary tales here to consider, and unfortunately they both kind of make us Americans look like a bunch of dicks, but they happen to be the two examples that come to mind. The first possibility is that one will side with the people that look likely to win/offer the best deal, and have that group indeed win, only to then turn on you. E.g the "friendly" Native American tribes, who ended up getting the shaft as well as the hostiles.

The other possibility is that you'll support the apparently-winning side, only to have them lose unexpectedly, or get bored and disband or leave. E.g. the South Vietnamese and Hmong, the anti-Saddam rebels in 1991, and pro-American groups in Iraq and Afghanistan since 2003 and 2001 respectively.
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Re: What side are you on?

Post by raptor » Tue Sep 30, 2014 3:41 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:In the absence of clear moral guidelines, who's hiring and who pays better?
There is a flaw to this logic that I have encountered in real life that may or may not be applicable.

If all things are equal the side facing the most hurdles (read most likely to lose) will pay more and make promises of returns/compensation that it cannot keep if it loses. The more desperate the situation the more incentive to embellish compensation.

The one more likely to be hiring are those who are desperate for help. The ones desperate for help are more likely to be on the losing side.

Obviously that is not always the case and YMMV.

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Re: What side are you on?

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Tue Sep 30, 2014 3:43 pm

raptor wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:In the absence of clear moral guidelines, who's hiring and who pays better?
There is a flaw to this logic that I have encountered in real life that may or may not be applicable.

If all things are equal the side facing the most hurdles (read most likely to lose) will pay more and make promises of returns/compensation that it cannot keep if it loses. The more desperate the situation the more incentive to embellish compensation.

The one more likely to be hiring are those who are desperate for help. The ones desperate for help are more likely to be on the losing side.

Obviously that is not always the case and YMMV.
Chalk likelihood of victory up under "longterm investment." Also plan an exit strategy, and as always, look unimportant enough that nobody will be clamoring to see your corpse hanging from a nearby statue.

But, I have a feeling that very seldom would any of us find ourselves in a situation where all things are equal.
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Re: What side are you on?

Post by raptor » Tue Sep 30, 2014 3:59 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote: Chalk likelihood of victory up under "longterm investment." Also plan an exit strategy, and as always, look unimportant enough that nobody will be clamoring to see your corpse hanging from a nearby statue.
In the 3rd world of business in the 3rd world:

1) Always have an exit plan and know where the back door is located. (That includes a passport, bug out cash and a pre-paid return airline ticket.)

2) Always remember ... even if you are on the winning side... many times it is cheaper to get rid of you than to pay you. Your value goes from hero to zero when the fight is finished...make sure you get the bulk of your compensation and you get the hell out before the last bullet is fired (or at least before closing documents are signed).


Doctorr Fabulous wrote: But, I have a feeling that very seldom would any of us find ourselves in a situation where all things are equal.
If things are not equal then all bets are off anyway since the "inequalities" may negate any advantages in compensation and long term prospects.

:D

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Re: What side are you on?

Post by tedbeau » Wed Oct 08, 2014 11:21 am

Interesting discussion.

I think at some point, it no longer matters if it's cake verses pie, because if it gets to the point where the two sides are really enslaving, killing, torturing, the other side it's not about the cake anymore. Contrary to what the history books taught you in grade school the US civil war was NOT just about slavery and the first world war was not just because a duke was assassinated.

People are going to either submit, resist, or join one side or the other if they can't ignore it. It may just come down to which faction comes knocking on your door in the middle of the night first.

At that point you may have to decide if you feel strongly enough about their cause to join, (If your even given that choice) or are you going to draw the line in the sand right there and make your stand.

If one side or the other is actually committing atrocities that you cant condone you may decide that you need to go off and join the other side and take up their cause.
However be aware that there are some (maybe only a few deranged) individuals on the other side that think that they are in the right. It's all a matter of the filters you view the situation through which were formed as your grew up, whether it's religion, football or cake, your basing your assessment of the morality of each side based on your personal filters.

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Re: What side are you on?

Post by PhunkyMunky » Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:07 pm

It very much depends. If the split is based on hate, then I stay low and out of the way. I don't want no part of these sort of things. Threaten Freedom, invade my country militarily (Southern Border issue is an entirely different deal and I am not sure what to think about it although it needs to be fixed)... Threaten my family. These are worth fighting for. But green skittles vs blue, cake vs pie, football vs basketball.... Or any real issues that cause the same stupidity... I'm not interested in getting in the middle of. I'll stay low, out of the way, and protect my home and family without regard to who it is threatening us.
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Re: What side are you on?

Post by Redacted » Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:12 pm

Evan the Diplomat wrote:
Mikeyboy wrote:........ I don't join in the fight there are grave consequences for me, my family, and my country as a whole.
Interesting choice of words. Maybe what make the situation so bad in the countries I mentioned is the lack of a strong national identity.

QFT.

This is the thing, however you feel about the myriad divisions within the U.S. we are all Americans. I personally see it the way I see my siblings. I will talk smack about them, and fight with them, but God help anyone from the outside that even looks at them funny.

As was said before though, my response is going to depend very specifically on the subject. If I don't have a dog in the fight I am probably laying low until it blows over though I will tend to lean toward which ever side represents the Rule of Law since I don't tend to believe anarchy is good for society.
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Re: What side are you on?

Post by bertzie » Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:11 pm

I am on nobodies side, because nobody is on my side.

If the conflict isn't in my neck of the woods, I'll stay out of it. If it starts coming to my neck of the woods, then it's time to find a new woods.

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Re: What side are you on?

Post by Evan the Diplomat » Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:24 pm

bertzie wrote:I am on nobodies side, because nobody is on my side.

If the conflict isn't in my neck of the woods, I'll stay out of it. If it starts coming to my neck of the woods, then it's time to find a new woods.
So your plan is to become a neutral refugee?
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Re: What side are you on?

Post by bertzie » Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:11 pm

Evan the Diplomat wrote:
bertzie wrote:I am on nobodies side, because nobody is on my side.

If the conflict isn't in my neck of the woods, I'll stay out of it. If it starts coming to my neck of the woods, then it's time to find a new woods.
So your plan is to become a neutral refugee?
If need be, yes. I'm a pretty big fan of not dying, and avoiding fighting is a great way to not die.

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Re: What side are you on?

Post by woodsghost » Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:23 pm

bertzie wrote:I am on nobodies side, because nobody is on my side.

If the conflict isn't in my neck of the woods, I'll stay out of it. If it starts coming to my neck of the woods, then it's time to find a new woods.
I agree. Survival is partly knowing when you need to GTFO. When Hitler came to power, those who were smart and could afford to got out. When Yugoslavia exploded, those who were smart and could afford to got out, or at least got their kids out. Rwanda, same thing, and you have a history then of refugee camps being created, and then targeted by BGs.

Finding a new woods is a good plan, IMO, but one needs to have backup plans. Like, what if one can't get out of dodge? What if the fighting makes it's way to the new woods? What if the new woods does not like you and either jail you, deport you, or simply throw you out of town?

In a natural disaster, it is unlikely you will have to run from BGs. But there are possible scenarios (such as civil wars) where there are 100 BGs coming for you and your 10 neighbors. What do you do? Defend the Alamo? Or GTFO and live to fight another day?

Different countries have faced this issue many times (civil war, civil strife, etc). America has experienced two civil wars (Revolutionary War & the Civil War) and in the last 55 years, quite a few riots. I see no reason to stick around if there is a riot and burning of buildings or some such going on outside my door.
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Re: What side are you on?

Post by teotwaki » Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:15 pm

woodsghost wrote:
bertzie wrote:I am on nobodies side, because nobody is on my side.

If the conflict isn't in my neck of the woods, I'll stay out of it. If it starts coming to my neck of the woods, then it's time to find a new woods.
I agree. Survival is partly knowing when you need to GTFO. When Hitler came to power, those who were smart and could afford to got out. When Yugoslavia exploded, those who were smart and could afford to got out, or at least got their kids out. Rwanda, same thing, and you have a history then of refugee camps being created, and then targeted by BGs.

Finding a new woods is a good plan, IMO, but one needs to have backup plans. Like, what if one can't get out of dodge? What if the fighting makes it's way to the new woods? What if the new woods does not like you and either jail you, deport you, or simply throw you out of town?

In a natural disaster, it is unlikely you will have to run from BGs. But there are possible scenarios (such as civil wars) where there are 100 BGs coming for you and your 10 neighbors. What do you do? Defend the Alamo? Or GTFO and live to fight another day?

Different countries have faced this issue many times (civil war, civil strife, etc). America has experienced two civil wars (Revolutionary War & the Civil War) and in the last 55 years, quite a few riots. I see no reason to stick around if there is a riot and burning of buildings or some such going on outside my door.
I agree with 98% but I think that a natural disaster will spawn unprepared people who will be very desperate and willing to take what is yours. That would be a small scale that does not match the OP's premise. However, if the natural disaster goes on for months then it might fit because large numbers of Have-Nots may descend on your neighborhood or city. On top of that one of the two groups could be a predominately different religion/race/income level and this might further inflame the situation.
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Re: What side are you on?

Post by angelofwar » Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:51 pm

I stick to the "Good Guys" side, whether it means my survival or not. Given all the "bad/evil news", we become numb to it, and think that that is the reality, when in fact, most people are good (albeit ignorant). Good wins again and again...and, if I have to go down in a pile of brass, I will die with a good conscious...
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Re: What side are you on?

Post by Boom40mm » Wed Nov 05, 2014 7:52 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:In the absence of clear moral guidelines, who's hiring and who pays better?
There it is! a fist full of dollars comes to mind.

Or if there were a rabble of 03anythings rolling around I would be hard pressed not to side with them.
angelofwar wrote:I stick to the "Good Guys" side, whether it means my survival or not. Given all the "bad/evil news", we become numb to it, and think that that is the reality, when in fact, most people are good (albeit ignorant). Good wins again and again...and, if I have to go down in a pile of brass, I will die with a good conscious...
Lines blur based on your (and the groups) flavor of ethics... Utilitarians can find great justifications to do bad stuff to the few for the benefit of the many.

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Re: What side are you on?

Post by nyarlotep » Sat Nov 08, 2014 1:36 am

Ring the yard with Claymores, and signs inviting anyone close enough to read them to kindly fuck off. There is very little that I care about enough to risk life and limb to protect it, though ironically, I would risk life and limb to save my life or my limbs.
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Re: What side are you on?

Post by Pc Genie » Sun Feb 01, 2015 6:10 pm

You mean like Loyalists or Rebels in my Britannic homeland?
I would choose the side that favours law and order, unless we are uprooting a vile government like in the English Civil war (Parliamentarians all the way, woo!).

If hooligans visited my house and told me that American Rugby (an egg-shaped object carried in hand) is better football than 'Soccer' (a game where you call the referee if the ball is not on your foot), I would politely explain that I prefer the latter, and either:
1. Enable them chance to disagree and rationally explain their opinion, before offering to retain our differences and part ways.
OR
2. Watch then fly off the hook and use my already prepared arming sword to an annoyingly messy effect (I just got these clothes out of the wash).
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