Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Discuss those "what if" or "what would you do" scenarios you've been wondering about.

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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by ManInBlack316 » Wed Jun 11, 2014 5:11 pm

My hat is made out of cotton actually. I apoligize if this got out of hand and off topic. I only trying to propose an extremely hypothetical scenario.
Back on topic, hopefully the foreign invading force hasn't succeeded in taking over the whole country, because then I can get the family kids and elders out and then presume with my original plan of being one of many thorns in the side of the invading force.

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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by McSquishin » Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:38 pm

There's a lot of "what ifs" involved in this topic. Why did this military coup take place? Was it justified? And yes, I do believe a military coup can be justified under obviously extreme circumstances, and I think this is an angle that has thus far been overlooked in this thread.

For the record, I'm only referring to a U.S. Military coup, and I do believe this can be discussed without breaking the politics rule on this forum.
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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by Stercutus » Thu Jun 12, 2014 4:31 am

A coup would be extra constitutional and illegal as well as involve illegal acts to implement and therefore outside the scope of things supported here.
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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by Kelvar » Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:44 pm

Apathy wrote:
Whoa there Kevlar. You took one of my quotes way out of context there. Let me fix that and elaborate for you.

"I really, really, really, don't like my current President. But if any group of people tried to illegally remove him from office, I would be morally compelled to act against said group. Probably with violence."

I said that In response to this.
It almost happened in 1933, thankfully General Smedley Butler took that oath seriously and betrayed the conspirators to the government.

If you haven't heard of this a good source for info would be http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/Coup.htm or just do some independent research there are plenty of sites that talk about it.

Sadly the conspirators were not brought to justice, and kept their wealth and power
I meant to reassure ineffableone that I would not tolerate any illegal overthrow of the president of the united states, even if I really don't like him/her. I checked to see if I was In violation of ZS rules, and the only thing I could have possibly been in violation of was this.

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I did not, nor have I ever invited a debate on politics, I explained above how it was on topic. But once again, I said this to show that my loyalty to the democratic system of the united states is unchanging.
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[/quote]

No, I understood the context, and your larger point is a valid one. I agree with the general notion that the military takes an oath to obey the lawful orders of the president, no matter who that might be. The problem is, and we have long held, that specifying a political figure for criticism falls within the rule against inviting debate on political issues.

Why? Because if one person says simply, "I really don't like Politician X," then someone else is likely to say,
"Oh, really? Well Politician Y did [fill in the blank] much better than X ever did."
To which the first person says, "No way, you've got your facts wrong."
To which the second person says, "No, you do. Probably because you watch [television network]."
And so on and so on.

And yet, if we moderators wait until the second person responds, then we're accused of giving one viewpoint a pass while restricting the other one. Instead, it is best not to criticize any specific political party or figure.

Also, the point could have been made without saying who you like and who you don't. For example, "Even if we have/had a president I don't like, I would still obey any lawful orders. . ."
I could say, "Between our current and former president, there is one that I don't really like." And I think that would be fine, too.
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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by Apathy » Thu Jun 12, 2014 5:03 pm

Ok, I can edit my way around that.
I agree with the general notion that the military takes an oath to obey the lawful orders of the president, no matter who that might be.
I don't think that I ever said I was a member of the armed forces. If by some miracle I sound like I know what I am talking about, it is just because I am constantly around veterans and LEOs.
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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by MacAttack » Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:34 am

I have always liked that part of the phrase, "lawful orders". If a solder or officer is willing to risk their career and freedom in the belief that those orders are not lawful they are within their rights to not obey them.

And if someone wants evidence of this happening just look to the American Civil war.
After the war not one southerner was tried for treason.

Using this as an example a military takeover is fully possible and quite possibly could be supported by the people if the military agrees to stand down at the next election and then does so.
That is the way it has happened in almost every other nation around the globe and it would work here also. We are not that special.
The whole of the military doesn't even have to initiate the take over. They just need a smaller force to oppose them and most of the military to just stand down and do nothing either way.


I can't see an outside military force standing a chance of taking over this nation without a full on full scale war on their hands.

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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by Mikeyboy » Fri Jun 13, 2014 9:38 am

Look at what is going on in Iraq & Syria with the ISIS. Sure its Iraq and not the USA, but its kind of amazing what just 80,000 to 100,000 seasoned militants with a fleet of pickup trucks can do. Iraq is the same size as the State of California

Look at what happened to the city of New Orleans and their Police Department after Hurricane Katrina. If your city or town had a caravan of 250K to 500K of brutal, heavily armed fighters coming its way, would your police force stick around to fight or worry about their own family and flee. What about the next town, and the next town after that. Also while the US military is the best in the world at fighting conflicts overseas, how much equipment, assets, and soldiers do we have stateside vs. overseas? My rough guesstimate is 1/4 of the approximate 1.3 million US Military personnel are overseas and of the approximate 1000 US military bases about 700 are overseas. So with that let's say just under 1 million military personnel are state side, with a majority of the 1 million being not combat/support or green recruits, and at least half of our planes, tanks, etc. are spread out overseas. A decapitation attack of most of the Major US military bases in the USA followed by a dump of two million combat troops on US soil, with tanks, and attack aircraft to back them up, against what is left of the stateside US military (which will be ill equipped), reservist and armed cops and civilians with mostly small arms weapons...It could happen.

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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by Stercutus » Fri Jun 13, 2014 9:47 am

MacAttack wrote:I have always liked that part of the phrase, "lawful orders". If a solder or officer is willing to risk their career and freedom in the belief that those orders are not lawful they are within their rights to not obey them.

And if someone wants evidence of this happening just look to the American Civil war.
After the war not one southerner was tried for treason.
That is not entirely true. Powell was tried and hung for being part of the Government Assassination plot. He was in the CSA during the war. There were a number of people tried during the war as well. This was mostly people who claimed loyalty to the North and secretly worked for the South such as William Merrick.

Mikey: The police are not equipped to fight any kind of Army. Even a poorly equipped, trained and organized one.
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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by NamelessStain » Fri Jun 13, 2014 9:53 am

MacAttack wrote:I have always liked that part of the phrase, "lawful orders". If a solder or officer is willing to risk their career and freedom in the belief that those orders are not lawful they are within their rights to not obey them.
Just look at the Nazis.
- If the soldiers disobey an order, they are tried for treason and put to death.
- If the soldier obey an order, they are tried for war crimes and put to death.

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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by ManInBlack316 » Fri Jun 13, 2014 3:37 pm

Mikeyboy wrote:Look at what is going on in Iraq & Syria with the ISIS. Sure its Iraq and not the USA, but its kind of amazing what just 80,000 to 100,000 seasoned militants with a fleet of pickup trucks can do. Iraq is the same size as the State of California

Look at what happened to the city of New Orleans and their Police Department after Hurricane Katrina. If your city or town had a caravan of 250K to 500K of brutal, heavily armed fighters coming its way, would your police force stick around to fight or worry about their own family and flee. What about the next town, and the next town after that. Also while the US military is the best in the world at fighting conflicts overseas, how much equipment, assets, and soldiers do we have stateside vs. overseas? My rough guesstimate is 1/4 of the approximate 1.3 million US Military personnel are overseas and of the approximate 1000 US military bases about 700 are overseas. So with that let's say just under 1 million military personnel are state side, with a majority of the 1 million being not combat/support or green recruits, and at least half of our planes, tanks, etc. are spread out overseas. A decapitation attack of most of the Major US military bases in the USA followed by a dump of two million combat troops on US soil, with tanks, and attack aircraft to back them up, against what is left of the stateside US military (which will be ill equipped), reservist and armed cops and civilians with mostly small arms weapons...It could happen.
Especailly if someone started that attack with an EMP over a large portion of the country.

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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by MacAttack » Fri Jun 13, 2014 9:01 pm

Stercutus wrote:
MacAttack wrote:I have always liked that part of the phrase, "lawful orders". If a solder or officer is willing to risk their career and freedom in the belief that those orders are not lawful they are within their rights to not obey them.

And if someone wants evidence of this happening just look to the American Civil war.
After the war not one southerner was tried for treason.
That is not entirely true. Powell was tried and hung for being part of the Government Assassination plot. He was in the CSA during the war. There were a number of people tried during the war as well. This was mostly people who claimed loyalty to the North and secretly worked for the South such as William Merrick.

Mikey: The police are not equipped to fight any kind of Army. Even a poorly equipped, trained and organized one.


They were tried as spies and admitted to being spies.
They were NOT tried as solders or officers not following the orders of their commander.
Spies are a special bread and were often just ordered shot in the field by the local commander. If they were given trials they must have wanted to question them further to find other spies.

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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by MacAttack » Fri Jun 13, 2014 9:06 pm

NamelessStain wrote:
MacAttack wrote:I have always liked that part of the phrase, "lawful orders". If a solder or officer is willing to risk their career and freedom in the belief that those orders are not lawful they are within their rights to not obey them.
Just look at the Nazis.
- If the soldiers disobey an order, they are tried for treason and put to death.
- If the soldier obey an order, they are tried for war crimes and put to death.

There's no way to win. Die now, or die later, most choose to die later.

99% of all German solders were never even thought of as war criminals. They were just let go. War crimes trials were reserved for the officers who ordered them around and I think on one case for a solder who took particular glee in killing Jews by his own hand.

A few dedicated Germans were found to be terrorists for killing Allied solders after the war and for other terrorist acts after the war. But not for actions during the war.

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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by Stercutus » Fri Jun 13, 2014 9:22 pm

Actually Powell never admitted to being a spy or assassin. He was certainly part of the treasonous plot though.

This is kind of beside the point though. The attack on Ft. Sumter is what proved to be the precipitating event of the Civil War. There was no actual war before that. The forces there had taken no substantive action despite the withdraw of SC from the US. If NC withdrew and the local militia marched on say Ft. Bragg the scenario will likely get pretty hairy.
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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by Tater Raider » Sat Jun 21, 2014 2:18 pm

Mikeyboy wrote:ome new lightening fast foreign invasion, your Country, state and town is taken over by an oppressive military force.

So you are in this situation, what do you do?

Welcome my new overlords with open arms then do the Iowa thing and resist via passive aggression. That's assuming I'm not executed for being part of a "survivalist" website, being a vet, or being handicapped.

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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by sheddi » Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:52 pm

Mikeyboy wrote:Look at what is going on in Iraq & Syria with the ISIS.
When I first read this thread I thought of Ukraine, either Crimea or Donbass. A "mysterious" paramilitary force appears overnight, takes over key government offices and installs its own puppets, subverts civil law enforcement to its own apparatus and blockades the local loyalist military forces in their bases.

To my mind some of the reasons it worked in Crimea and almost worked in Donbass were that a significant fraction of the local population were sympathetic to the paramilitaries stated aims, sense of national identity was weak, government at all levels was weak and corrupt and the national military was barely functional. Oh, and having the paramilitaries backed by the major regional power (also the former colonial power, in effect) definitely helped.

Many of those reasons wouldn't apply to the current-day UK and I doubt they're any more credible in the modern USA, but you might like to suspend disbelief and imagine that these circumstances came to pass when coming up with your answers for this WWYD.

What would I do? Well, I'd seriously consider packing my wife and children off for a prolonged summer vacation with my parents and sister (who live in the rural south-west of England) well away from where we currently live (which, while fairly rural, is too close to too many people and too many high-value targets). After that I'd continue turning up for work and see just how bad it gets.
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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by DoomGuy » Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:04 pm

Apathy wrote:I heard recently that we have as many veterans in America as Afghanistan has people. I don't think I could add much to a gorilla war...
Haha, gorillas.



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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by Apathy » Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:06 pm

DoomGuy wrote:
Apathy wrote:I heard recently that we have as many veterans in America as Afghanistan has people. I don't think I could add much to a gorilla war...
Haha, gorillas.



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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by woodsghost » Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:21 pm

I'll admit, the 12 year old in me giggled at the gorillas too. The adult in me was not as amused.
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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by Redacted » Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:18 pm

It was explained to me in boot camp that one reason the United States has four branches of the Military is specifically to help counter any attempted military coup. The idea being that if the Chief of Staff of the US Army, for example, were to attempt a coup, the Air Force, Navy, and Marine Corp would present considerable resistance to this...

Well, maybe not the Air Force.

Assuming that all four branches of the Armed Forces corroborated to overthrow the current regime, I might seriously consider their rationale. I trust most military commanders more than any politicians.
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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by MacAttack » Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:36 pm

Redacted wrote:It was explained to me in boot camp that one reason the United States has four branches of the Military is specifically to help counter any attempted military coup. The idea being that if the Chief of Staff of the US Army, for example, were to attempt a coup, the Air Force, Navy, and Marine Corp would present considerable resistance to this...

Well, maybe not the Air Force.

Assuming that all four branches of the Armed Forces corroborated to overthrow the current regime, I might seriously consider their rationale. I trust most military commanders more than any politicians.

That might be a nice and happy coincidence but its not the real reason the 5 branches exist.

Each one does its own specific job.
Even though the Navy has been around since ships were invented the Marine is still a historically resent invention.
And the same with the Air Force.
The Army has been around since more than two guys got together and argued but the Air Force has only been around since air power became a common tactic in war and the tools to reach that end became ever more complex.


In the case of the US military and government the Marines have little chance of stopping a take over. They have to hitch a ride with the Navy in almost every case. The Navy has little chance of stopping the Army.
In fact the only branch that could do a military take over in the US is the Army. As long as the others are not willing to nuke the army on US soil. And the Army could only manage a take over if the civilians let them.

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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by woodsghost » Sat Oct 04, 2014 2:21 pm

Redacted wrote: Assuming that all four branches of the Armed Forces corroborated to overthrow the current regime, I might seriously consider their rationale. I trust most military commanders more than any politicians.
World wide, sometimes militaries take over to put some general or some-such in power. Other times they do it because the civilians are behaving illegally or stupidly.

I think world wide, miliaries tend to enjoy a lot of respect, with many notable exceptions. In general, the US military enjoys a lot of well earned respect, though it has not always (1970's).

Having said all that, one should really think things through before siding with the military, even if most politicians have failed to earn our respect. To be fair, one should be slow to back the politicians too. Just don't knee-jerk support someone. If it suddenly looks like there is a bad guy and a good guy, really take a second and think it through before throwing support one way or the other.

Just my thoughts.

Oh, and never side with cannibals. Especially not ones wearing dinner bibs. That is just some free life advice ;)
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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by Stercutus » Sat Oct 04, 2014 4:15 pm

Even though the Navy has been around since ships were invented the Marine is still a historically resent invention.
YUP! :P
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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by CitizenZ » Sat Oct 04, 2014 5:10 pm

First, understand that any such "scenario" is likely to be short lived. Our system of government is more than 2 centuries old and has been surprisingly stable and adaptive. Assuming this scenario is happening while I'm living in another country or somehow goes on long term we would need to look forward. Either learn to live with it, escape it, or change it.

Assuming I had to help change it I would pursue; civil discourse, civil disobedience, civil war. In that order.

For civil discourse I would follow the example of Samuel Adams and other pre-Revolutionary founding fathers.
For civil disobedience I would follow the example of Gandhi and MLKjr.
For civil war I would follow the example of Washington and von Dach.

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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by Redacted » Sat Oct 04, 2014 10:55 pm

MacAttack wrote:
Redacted wrote:It was explained to me in boot camp that one reason the United States has four branches of the Military is specifically to help counter any attempted military coup. The idea being that if the Chief of Staff of the US Army, for example, were to attempt a coup, the Air Force, Navy, and Marine Corp would present considerable resistance to this...

Well, maybe not the Air Force.

Assuming that all four branches of the Armed Forces corroborated to overthrow the current regime, I might seriously consider their rationale. I trust most military commanders more than any politicians.

That might be a nice and happy coincidence but its not the real reason the 5 branches exist.

Each one does its own specific job.
Even though the Navy has been around since ships were invented the Marine is still a historically resent invention.
And the same with the Air Force.
The Army has been around since more than two guys got together and argued but the Air Force has only been around since air power became a common tactic in war and the tools to reach that end became ever more complex.


In the case of the US military and government the Marines have little chance of stopping a take over. They have to hitch a ride with the Navy in almost every case. The Navy has little chance of stopping the Army.
In fact the only branch that could do a military take over in the US is the Army. As long as the others are not willing to nuke the army on US soil. And the Army could only manage a take over if the civilians let them.
I qualified my earlier statement as being one reason for multiple branches of the military, not the only reason, and it is certainly more than a happy coincidence.
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