Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Discuss those "what if" or "what would you do" scenarios you've been wondering about.

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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by Browning 35 » Sat May 31, 2014 8:26 pm

itzybitzyspyder wrote:I'd covertly resist while doing my best to appear neutral and non-combative. I'd use resources to print flyers even if it meant to do it by hand. I'd spray anti-occupation graffiti on the walls. I'd sneak in the night and do these things under the cover of darkness. If I was caught and publicly executed I'd shout words of resistance and spit in the face of my captors. I'm a fucking American and I'd die free.
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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by ManInBlack316 » Sun Jun 01, 2014 6:04 pm

In addition to doing what itzybitzyspyder said, there would be quite a bit of the occupiers found stripped of their gear, tied up in an alleyway, who would tell the comrades that find them horrible tales of a man in black and his crazy wife that don't take kindly to oppressors. If it's the begginnings of a resistance, don't get rid of the enemy, let fear spread throughout their ranks first.

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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by BigDaddyTX » Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:55 pm

I'd probably go with the cache weapons/gear option, and just lay low. This doesn't sound like it is much worse than it is now, and potentially better depending on who is doing what to whom. Lots of things depend on different aspects of the lockdown too. Most of my family live in Texas, can I get a permit to visit them? Can I leave the county? City? How about my brother in China? Can I get easy access to medical care for my kiddo? Are groceries showing up at the store?

The real interesting thing, to me, would be the different money. How does it work? Is it just a defacto new fiat currency? Is it 1:1 with our old currency? What do I do with my old currency? PMs? Is our economy crashing because of the takeover?
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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by fieryduck » Sun Jun 08, 2014 7:45 pm

It'd have to be some kind of foreign invasion; I can't really imagine any of kind of general support for a coup from our military. Either way, I'd carry out my oath to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice."

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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by ineffableone » Sun Jun 08, 2014 9:09 pm

fieryduck wrote:It'd have to be some kind of foreign invasion; I can't really imagine any of kind of general support for a coup from our military. Either way, I'd carry out my oath to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice."
It almost happened in 1933, thankfully General Smedley Butler took that oath seriously and betrayed the conspirators to the government.

If you haven't heard of this a good source for info would be http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/Coup.htm or just do some independent research there are plenty of sites that talk about it.

Sadly the conspirators were not brought to justice, and kept their wealth and power.
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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by Apathy » Sun Jun 08, 2014 9:51 pm

fieryduck wrote:It'd have to be some kind of foreign invasion; I can't really imagine any of kind of general support for a coup from our military. Either way, I'd carry out my oath to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice."

I don't think it impossible for a rapid domestic takeover of the united states government. But Americans can generally only be controlled through slow and complex means of subversion. Anything too fast or obvious and you would likely be in for a world of hurt. One exception is if we were living through a massive economic depression, with tons of natural disasters and threats of war. Then, like many other nations we could fall for an expert politician preaching some new ideology of how thing ought to be.

I may not like an elected official. But if any group of people tried to illegally remove him/her from office, I would be morally compelled to act against said group. Probably with violence.

But I don't think we are anymore likely to be invaded by a foreign power, not with the currently unmatched capabilities of our military. We also would be a very miserable place to occupy. If we just looked at potential enemy nations capable of attacking us it seems less likely.

For instance. China barely has a blue water navy, made mostly of very small ships, and only one small aircraft carrier that won't be fully ready for another three years. Without proportional navel transportation, China's massive military is impotent.
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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by ManInBlack316 » Tue Jun 10, 2014 2:40 pm

A domestic takeover in the US would probably be pretty easy to do actually. Not by our military, at least not mostly, but by the DHS, any one remember Boston after the marathon bombing? Shut the place down, house by house unconstitutional searches, no one said a thing. And as long as a group cuts or controls the communication lines, they pretty much get free reign of at least a decent sized area.

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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Tue Jun 10, 2014 2:42 pm

ManInBlack316 wrote:A domestic takeover in the US would probably be pretty easy to do actually. Not by our military, at least not mostly, but by the DHS, any one remember Boston after the marathon bombing? Shut the place down, house by house unconstitutional searches, no one said a thing. And as long as a group cuts or controls the communication lines, they pretty much get free reign of at least a decent sized area.
That wasn't DHS all by their lonesome, they had local and state police, and with full cooperation. That's rather like saying the Japanese interment camps are evidence FDR could have turned the entire US into a death camp: you're extrapolating far too much from a nonanalogous situation.
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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by duodecima » Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:57 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
ManInBlack316 wrote:A domestic takeover in the US would probably be pretty easy to do actually. Not by our military, at least not mostly, but by the DHS, any one remember Boston after the marathon bombing? Shut the place down, house by house unconstitutional searches, no one said a thing. And as long as a group cuts or controls the communication lines, they pretty much get free reign of at least a decent sized area.
That wasn't DHS all by their lonesome, they had local and state police, and with full cooperation. That's rather like saying the Japanese interment camps are evidence FDR could have turned the entire US into a death camp: you're extrapolating far too much from a nonanalogous situation.
And we all knew what was happening in pretty short order (i.e. house to house search for the remaining bomber). Communications can be impaired but I think it would be very difficult to completely stop them, and once the info got outside that area it'd be everywhere at once. Consider how much info we have from inside Syria - it's nothing like normal but it's far from a blackout.

Anything like this pretty much has to have cooperation or at least acquiescence from local authorities, usually at multiple levels, AND a decent sized majority of people in the area, or it won't work. Imagine trying to inter the Japanese-Americans in WWII if all (or even just half) their neighbors and co-workers had been resolutely and actively resisting it.
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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Tue Jun 10, 2014 4:07 pm

duodecima wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
ManInBlack316 wrote:A domestic takeover in the US would probably be pretty easy to do actually. Not by our military, at least not mostly, but by the DHS, any one remember Boston after the marathon bombing? Shut the place down, house by house unconstitutional searches, no one said a thing. And as long as a group cuts or controls the communication lines, they pretty much get free reign of at least a decent sized area.
That wasn't DHS all by their lonesome, they had local and state police, and with full cooperation. That's rather like saying the Japanese interment camps are evidence FDR could have turned the entire US into a death camp: you're extrapolating far too much from a nonanalogous situation.
And we all knew what was happening in pretty short order (i.e. house to house search for the remaining bomber). Communications can be impaired but I think it would be very difficult to completely stop them, and once the info got outside that area it'd be everywhere at once. Consider how much info we have from inside Syria - it's nothing like normal but it's far from a blackout.

Anything like this pretty much has to have cooperation or at least acquiescence from local authorities, usually at multiple levels, AND a decent sized majority of people in the area, or it won't work. Imagine trying to inter the Japanese-Americans in WWII if all (or even just half) their neighbors and co-workers had been resolutely and actively resisting it.
Particularly if all those young bucks on the military bases started getting calls from their wives and friends out in town. I would not want to be Jacksonville PD trying to pull that shit.
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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by Stercutus » Tue Jun 10, 2014 7:40 pm

duodecima wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
ManInBlack316 wrote:A domestic takeover in the US would probably be pretty easy to do actually. Not by our military, at least not mostly, but by the DHS, any one remember Boston after the marathon bombing? Shut the place down, house by house unconstitutional searches, no one said a thing. And as long as a group cuts or controls the communication lines, they pretty much get free reign of at least a decent sized area.
That wasn't DHS all by their lonesome, they had local and state police, and with full cooperation. That's rather like saying the Japanese interment camps are evidence FDR could have turned the entire US into a death camp: you're extrapolating far too much from a nonanalogous situation.
And we all knew what was happening in pretty short order (i.e. house to house search for the remaining bomber). Communications can be impaired but I think it would be very difficult to completely stop them, and once the info got outside that area it'd be everywhere at once. Consider how much info we have from inside Syria - it's nothing like normal but it's far from a blackout.

Anything like this pretty much has to have cooperation or at least acquiescence from local authorities, usually at multiple levels, AND a decent sized majority of people in the area, or it won't work. Imagine trying to inter the Japanese-Americans in WWII if all (or even just half) their neighbors and co-workers had been resolutely and actively resisting it.

Amazing that some people believe that the Constitution has not been interpreted by SCOTUS case law in the last couple of hundred years even though the Constitution says that is one of their functions. Those searches were perfectly legal under exigent circumstances and public safety exceptions as noted in numerous cases. They were not searching for someones pot stash or even a murder weapon. They were looking for a serious live threat to public safety.
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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by Apathy » Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:11 pm

ManInBlack316 wrote:A domestic takeover in the US would probably be pretty easy to do actually. Not by our military, at least not mostly, but by the DHS, any one remember Boston after the marathon bombing? Shut the place down, house by house unconstitutional searches, no one said a thing. And as long as a group cuts or controls the communication lines, they pretty much get free reign of at least a decent sized area.

While I raised an eyebrow at the level of response that the governments put out, it was not the DHS's audition for the geheim Stadt Polizei. It was probably just your typical fed overreaction. Or, at the worst. an attempt to limit the political fallout from an attack, which in hindsight, it seems we had some forewarning from the Russians about those boys.

It looks pretty embarrassing to DHS that while they were busy tracking the movements of tea party members, prolife activists, and outspoken tree huggers, they let the Boston bombers apparently slip through their fingers. I personally don't think that they realistically could have stopped the attack, but I could see people losing their jobs in retribution. People in big organizations, like the government. Tend to pass the buck.

You also should remember that the Boston reaction was not done with the goal of subjugating Americans. It was for apprehending a terrorist. It was a short term operation, that is why they could "Shut the place down". if our entire government wanted to permanently oppress us, it would take years of preparation.
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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by ManInBlack316 » Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:43 pm

I apoligize if I came off as saying that the DHS MUST be future opressors, I was just using that situation as an example of a takeover of sorts. As for cutting off communication, would be pretty easy if there was that "internet kill-switch" that has been suggested, phone lines aren't hard to control either if the companies played ball. Depending on the locale, certain local government agencies will always assist federal operations, a certain local sheriff I know would probably be okay with an interment camp if it came with federal money/resources. I'm not saying that this is happening or will happen, I'm just saying that it's not as difficult for a domestic takeover as many think it is.

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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by feedthedog » Tue Jun 10, 2014 11:31 pm

ManInBlack316 wrote:I apoligize if I came off as saying that the DHS MUST be future opressors, I was just using that situation as an example of a takeover of sorts. As for cutting off communication, would be pretty easy if there was that "internet kill-switch" that has been suggested, phone lines aren't hard to control either if the companies played ball. Depending on the locale, certain local government agencies will always assist federal operations, a certain local sheriff I know would probably be okay with an interment camp if it came with federal money/resources. I'm not saying that this is happening or will happen, I'm just saying that it's not as difficult for a domestic takeover as many think it is.
There are so many of US (regular people) compared to THEM (combined military, reserve, NG, federal cops, state, local, etc). None of those groups like to play nicely together. We had a fuck ton of soldiers/marines/spies/mercenaries in Iraq during the surge and it's not like that place was really under control.

Obviously there are a million differences in the Iraq vs US comparison, but imagine how many people you would need to cover a geographic area the size of the US. I'm not even talking about operating in the face of any sort of resistance, just in terms of managing something like that.

If we are talking about a Thailand style take over, then that is way more feasible. Not likely, but feasible.

I feel like there would be easier ways to get a tremendous amount of power and influence. Relative to the price of a coup, you could buy a whole lot of lobbyists and contribute to a lot of campaigns. Seems easier and safer.

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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by Stercutus » Wed Jun 11, 2014 6:27 am

feedthedog wrote:
ManInBlack316 wrote:I apoligize if I came off as saying that the DHS MUST be future opressors, I was just using that situation as an example of a takeover of sorts. As for cutting off communication, would be pretty easy if there was that "internet kill-switch" that has been suggested, phone lines aren't hard to control either if the companies played ball. Depending on the locale, certain local government agencies will always assist federal operations, a certain local sheriff I know would probably be okay with an interment camp if it came with federal money/resources. I'm not saying that this is happening or will happen, I'm just saying that it's not as difficult for a domestic takeover as many think it is.
There are so many of US (regular people) compared to THEM (combined military, reserve, NG, federal cops, state, local, etc). None of those groups like to play nicely together. We had a fuck ton of soldiers/marines/spies/mercenaries in Iraq during the surge and it's not like that place was really under control.

Obviously there are a million differences in the Iraq vs US comparison, but imagine how many people you would need to cover a geographic area the size of the US. I'm not even talking about operating in the face of any sort of resistance, just in terms of managing something like that.

If we are talking about a Thailand style take over, then that is way more feasible. Not likely, but feasible.

I feel like there would be easier ways to get a tremendous amount of power and influence. Relative to the price of a coup, you could buy a whole lot of lobbyists and contribute to a lot of campaigns. Seems easier and safer.
That is the American way of life. That is why I am always chuckling at the "secret takeover plot" people. The government gets compromised in small and large ways every day on every level.
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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by Browning 35 » Wed Jun 11, 2014 6:47 am

ManInBlack316 wrote:A domestic takeover in the US would probably be pretty easy to do actually. Not by our military, at least not mostly, but by the DHS, any one remember Boston after the marathon bombing? Shut the place down, house by house unconstitutional searches, no one said a thing. And as long as a group cuts or controls the communication lines, they pretty much get free reign of at least a decent sized area.
I actually remember thinking somewhat of the same thing, but I had to remind myself that they weren't facing any resistance at all. None. No one was mobbing up and talking shit much less shooting at them from concealment or cover. They were looking for a couple of Jihadist terrorists who'd blasted joggers into jelly at a marathon their city is known for. Not going to get more unpopular than that.

If the search was a product of a domestic takeover or an invasion it wouldn't really take much effort to plop down behind a bush or a slot in fence during the day when NV and thermal imaging aren't force multipliers and others are about to use as cover, taking one shot with a scoped rifle at 3-400 yards and then scooting

Around here if there was some sort of armed takeover the most visible representatives of that (probably the police or soldiers at roadblocks or in convoys) would be getting shot almost immediately. Drive-by's, sniping and if it were a domestic take over the newbie resistance would be looking for info on them and where they live to reduce their home to a smoking ruin. The organized ambushes and IED's would probably come later (lack of ordinance, most people have guns, not TNT or C4 and blasting caps). In short people would be practically lining up to take a shot at them. I don't think either would really go over too well.

I'm completely with you on the unconstitutional part of that whole thing though. I just don't think people said anything as they actually wanted those guys found.
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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by ManInBlack316 » Wed Jun 11, 2014 8:37 am

This discussion is why I tell people who say that our 2nd amendment rights don't garuantee our freedom don't know what they are talking about :awesome: Isn't it the Japense in WW2 that said there woudl be "a rifle behind every blade of grass"? :mrgreen:

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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Wed Jun 11, 2014 8:45 am

ManInBlack316 wrote:This discussion is why I tell people who say that our 2nd amendment rights don't garuantee our freedom don't know what they are talking about :awesome: Isn't it the Japense in WW2 that said there woudl be "a rifle behind every blade of grass"? :mrgreen:
No. It was attributed to one of MacArthur's historians, but never written down by even a secondhand source. It's just been misquoted infinitely because of its truthiness.
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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by Kelvar » Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:23 am

Stercutus wrote:
Amazing that some people believe that the Constitution has not been interpreted by SCOTUS case law in the last couple of hundred years even though the Constitution says that is one of their functions. Those searches were perfectly legal under exigent circumstances and public safety exceptions as noted in numerous cases. They were not searching for someones pot stash or even a murder weapon. They were looking for a serious live threat to public safety.
(Emphasis added)
This. "Unconstitutional" is not a synonym for "things I disagree with." When police are looking for an active mass murderer, they don't have to get a warrant to search every single place the murderer could be. Naturally, there are reasonable limitations to this doctrine. Would anyone honestly want it any other way? I value my right to privacy, but that right has some limits--if it needs to be temporarily restricted in the interest of preventing more bombings, I don't think that's unreasonable. We all should question the government, but we should try to be sophisticated enough to not see the world in black and white. Very few rules are logical if they have zero exceptions. Much like "no plan survives contact with the enemy," no law (or constitutional provision) survives contact with real life. That's why we have courts.

I won't say "only a Sith speaks in absolutes," because that statement itself is an absolute. I will say that "generally people who speak/think in absolutes are either dangerous or naïve, and sometimes both."
feedthedog wrote:
ManInBlack316 wrote: Depending on the locale, certain local government agencies will always assist federal operations, a certain local sheriff I know would probably be okay with an interment camp if it came with federal money/resources.
There are so many of US (regular people) compared to THEM (combined military, reserve, NG, federal cops, state, local, etc). None of those groups like to play nicely together. We had a fuck ton of soldiers/marines/spies/mercenaries in Iraq during the surge and it's not like that place was really under control.


I've expressed my opinion about this issue elsewhere, but as a former soldier, this offends me. From my way of thinking, there is no "us" or "them" when we're talking about the U.S. military. The military is made of American citizens. Citizens who tend to be pretty decent human beings. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

As for American law enforcement putting American citizens in internment camps. . .well, I'm not going to ask what your hat is made of.

Meanwhile, when this thread gets locked and buried, it will be because of shit like this:
Apathy wrote: It was probably just your typical fed overreaction.
ManInBlack316 wrote:A domestic takeover in the US would probably be pretty easy to do actually. Not by our military, at least not mostly, but by the DHS, any one remember Boston after the marathon bombing?
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BigDaddyTX wrote:I'd probably go with the cache weapons/gear option, and just lay low. This doesn't sound like it is much worse than it is now, and potentially better depending on who is doing what to whom. Lots of things depend on different aspects of the lockdown too. Most of my family live in Texas, can I get a permit to visit them? Can I leave the county? City? How about my brother in China? Can I get easy access to medical care for my kiddo? Are groceries showing up at the store?
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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by Kelvar » Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:28 am

In the interest of giving this thread a shot at staying open a while longer, I recommend you assume the scenario presented in the OP involves a foreign force. Perhaps that will avoid some of the foolishness I quoted above.
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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:30 am

Kelvar wrote:In the interest of giving this thread a shot at staying open a while longer, I recommend you assume the scenario presented in the OP involves a foreign force. Perhaps that will avoid some of the foolishness I quoted above.
Back to Option One then. Find General Mattis and/or Colonel Trimble and await orders.
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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by feedthedog » Wed Jun 11, 2014 10:23 am

Kelvar wrote:
feedthedog wrote:
ManInBlack316 wrote: Depending on the locale, certain local government agencies will always assist federal operations, a certain local sheriff I know would probably be okay with an interment camp if it came with federal money/resources.
There are so many of US (regular people) compared to THEM (combined military, reserve, NG, federal cops, state, local, etc). None of those groups like to play nicely together. We had a fuck ton of soldiers/marines/spies/mercenaries in Iraq during the surge and it's not like that place was really under control.


I've expressed my opinion about this issue elsewhere, but as a former soldier, this offends me. From my way of thinking, there is no "us" or "them" when we're talking about the U.S. military. The military is made of American citizens. Citizens who tend to be pretty decent human beings. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

As for American law enforcement putting American citizens in internment camps. . .well, I'm not going to ask what your hat is made of.
Yeah, I'm a former Soldier too. Sorry if you misunderstood, but my intent was to explain the logistical and operational impossibility of the described situation.

Apathy
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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by Apathy » Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:57 pm

Kelvar wrote:
Stercutus wrote:


Meanwhile, when this thread gets locked and buried, it will be because of shit like this:
Apathy wrote: It was probably just your typical fed overreaction.
Apathy wrote: I really, really, really, don't like my current President.
Image

Whoa there Kevlar. You took one of my quotes way out of context there. Let me fix that and elaborate for you.

"I really, really, really, don't like my current President. But if any group of people tried to illegally remove him from office, I would be morally compelled to act against said group. Probably with violence."

I said that In response to this.
It almost happened in 1933, thankfully General Smedley Butler took that oath seriously and betrayed the conspirators to the government.

If you haven't heard of this a good source for info would be http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/Coup.htm or just do some independent research there are plenty of sites that talk about it.

Sadly the conspirators were not brought to justice, and kept their wealth and power
I meant to reassure ineffableone that I would not tolerate any illegal overthrow of the president of the united states, even if I really don't like him/her. I checked to see if I was In violation of ZS rules, and the only thing I could have possibly been in violation of was this.

"7.) No debating of politics or religion.
To help discourage any of the above rules from being broken, we make a point to avoid these types of debates. It makes it a lot easier for us to all get along and helps us stay focused on our root topics--survival and zombies. There are lots of other great forums out there dedicated to debating politics and religion if you wish to do so.

I did not, nor have I ever invited a debate on politics, I explained above how it was on topic. But once again, I said this to show that my loyalty to the democratic system of the united states is unchanging.


And what I said about the federal overreaction. I may be wrong, but I would bet a fair amount of money that you could find something said along those lines hundreds of times on this forum. And it was a fairly Apolitical statement. The federal government has been overreacting since the start. And it will probably keep on going regardless of who is in the white house. I was not calling for any action whatsoever.

I assure you, I only use my tin foil hat to protect me from the Major League Baseball Association. :)
Liebe läßt sich suchen, finden,
Niemals lernen, oder lehren,
Wer da will die Flamm' entzünden
Ohne selbst sich zu verzehren,

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Re: Rapid Military Takeover WWYD

Post by .milFox » Wed Jun 11, 2014 3:18 pm

As a resident DHS (USCG) type...

When did we become the boogeyman? Seriously?

Boston is an example of the opposite of a takeover. That all levels of government (local, state, federal) agreed to do something together involves a LOT of people's representatives and is an example of cooperation, not subornation of legitimate democratic authority.

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