Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by angelofwar » Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:22 am

Reading through this stuff reminds me of, and makes me greatly appreciate the Italian L.E. The have "Polizia Comuniale" for writing speeding tickets, etc., but their mainpolice arm is the Carabinieri. A police force that is a branch of the military...and, from my experience, a very effective one at that (that's why the mob/mafia has seriously dwindled in southern Italy over the past few decades...).

I was stationed in Italy back during Operation Allied Force ('99: The bombing campaign to dislodge Slobadan Milosevic), the Italians had the right to protest...but, they were also given simple instructions..."Do NOT go HERE (i.e. this part (what ever it may be) of the joint U.S./Italian Military installation)". The protesters were allowed to walk up and down the streets 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, unbothered. Then, some Green Peace yuppies decided to defile the Carabinieries orders by swarming the main gate in white jump suits and gas masks...bad move...They have "military jurisdiction" over all of Italy...a "Military Civilian Police Force", if you will. And when they (the protesters) disobeyed LAWFUL orders "Not to enter/Go near", the Carabinieri had full right (which they utilized) to go in there and beat their asses. A little extreme? Maybe...but, after dealing with the people they have been dealing with for the past 50-60 years (Mafia/Red Army), sometimes (often-times, in my book), a big-stick is required, and justified. Civil disobedience, short of a Gov't over throw, has it's limitations.

The peaceful protesters were left alone...the hooligans...they got their ass beat by well trained (and respected) Italian Police :0)
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by TDW586 » Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:31 am

I fail to see the irony in that message. We could get into a detailed discussion about the origins of government and the social contract and the consent of the governed and so on and so forth, but as a practical matter, a government entity has (and always has had) the right to regulate the usage of publicly owned property. That's what public property is; property under the direct control of a governmental organization. I'm not sure where the idea that public property "belongs to everyone" comes from. In theory and in practice, it does not. It belongs to the government, and policies concerning its use may be changed by political means.

Failure to understand this is a fundamental failure to understand the nature of the government.

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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by the_alias » Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:39 am

angelofwar wrote:Reading through this stuff reminds me of, and makes me greatly appreciate the Italian L.E. The have "Polizia Comuniale" for writing speeding tickets, etc., but their mainpolice arm is the Carabinieri. A police force that is a branch of the military...and, from my experience, a very effective one at that (that's why the mob/mafia has seriously dwindled in southern Italy over the past few decades...).

I was stationed in Italy back during Operation Allied Force ('99: The bombing campaign to dislodge Slobadan Milosevic), the Italians had the right to protest...but, they were also given simple instructions..."Do NOT go HERE (i.e. this part (what ever it may be) of the joint U.S./Italian Military installation)". The protesters were allowed to walk up and down the streets 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, unbothered. Then, some Green Peace yuppies decided to defile the Carabinieries orders by swarming the main gate in white jump suits and gas masks...bad move...They have "military jurisdiction" over all of Italy...a "Military Civilian Police Force", if you will. And when they (the protesters) disobeyed LAWFUL orders "Not to enter/Go near", the Carabinieri had full right (which they utilized) to go in there and beat their asses. A little extreme? Maybe...but, after dealing with the people they have been dealing with for the past 50-60 years (Mafia/Red Army), sometimes (often-times, in my book), a big-stick is required, and justified. Civil disobedience, short of a Gov't over throw, has it's limitations.

The peaceful protesters were left alone...the hooligans...they got their ass beat by well trained (and respected) Italian Police :0)
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by TacAir » Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:19 pm

the_alias wrote:
angelofwar wrote:Reading through this stuff reminds me of, and makes me greatly appreciate the Italian L.E. The have "Polizia Comuniale" for writing speeding tickets, etc., but their mainpolice arm is the Carabinieri. A police force that is a branch of the military...and, from my experience, a very effective one at that (that's why the mob/mafia has seriously dwindled in southern Italy over the past few decades...).

I was stationed in Italy back during Operation Allied Force ('99: The bombing campaign to dislodge Slobadan Milosevic), the Italians had the right to protest...but, they were also given simple instructions..."Do NOT go HERE (i.e. this part (what ever it may be) of the joint U.S./Italian Military installation)". The protesters were allowed to walk up and down the streets 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, unbothered. Then, some Green Peace yuppies decided to defile the Carabinieries orders by swarming the main gate in white jump suits and gas masks...bad move...They have "military jurisdiction" over all of Italy...a "Military Civilian Police Force", if you will. And when they (the protesters) disobeyed LAWFUL orders "Not to enter/Go near", the Carabinieri had full right (which they utilized) to go in there and beat their asses. A little extreme? Maybe...but, after dealing with the people they have been dealing with for the past 50-60 years (Mafia/Red Army), sometimes (often-times, in my book), a big-stick is required, and justified. Civil disobedience, short of a Gov't over throw, has it's limitations.

The peaceful protesters were left alone...the hooligans...they got their ass beat by well trained (and respected) Italian Police :0)
Now I've heard it all. :lol:
Just a side note - the police in Germany have the 'same' sense of humor - that is, none whatsoever....
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by squinty » Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:35 pm

angelofwar wrote:Reading through this stuff reminds me of, and makes me greatly appreciate the Italian L.E. The have "Polizia Comuniale" for writing speeding tickets, etc., but their mainpolice arm is the Carabinieri. A police force that is a branch of the military...and, from my experience, a very effective one at that (that's why the mob/mafia has seriously dwindled in southern Italy over the past few decades...).

I was stationed in Italy back during Operation Allied Force ('99: The bombing campaign to dislodge Slobadan Milosevic), the Italians had the right to protest...but, they were also given simple instructions..."Do NOT go HERE (i.e. this part (what ever it may be) of the joint U.S./Italian Military installation)". The protesters were allowed to walk up and down the streets 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, unbothered. Then, some Green Peace yuppies decided to defile the Carabinieries orders by swarming the main gate in white jump suits and gas masks...bad move...They have "military jurisdiction" over all of Italy...a "Military Civilian Police Force", if you will. And when they (the protesters) disobeyed LAWFUL orders "Not to enter/Go near", the Carabinieri had full right (which they utilized) to go in there and beat their asses. A little extreme? Maybe...but, after dealing with the people they have been dealing with for the past 50-60 years (Mafia/Red Army), sometimes (often-times, in my book), a big-stick is required, and justified. Civil disobedience, short of a Gov't over throw, has it's limitations.

The peaceful protesters were left alone...the hooligans...they got their ass beat by well trained (and respected) Italian Police :0)
Wow. I greatly appreciate living in a country where the govt. pitting the military against it's own citizens is frowned upon, and police aren't empowered to simply "beat their asses" - not even when making lawful arrests.
I appreciate the role police play in apprehending people who truly victimize other citizens - thieves and rapists and etc. - but it's disheartening to hear an American celebrate a government's use of extreme violence against protestors, or sing the praises of a governments "big stick" being used to keep it's citizens in line.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by angelofwar » Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:11 pm

squinty wrote:
angelofwar wrote:Reading through this stuff reminds me of, and makes me greatly appreciate the Italian L.E. The have "Polizia Comuniale" for writing speeding tickets, etc., but their mainpolice arm is the Carabinieri. A police force that is a branch of the military...and, from my experience, a very effective one at that (that's why the mob/mafia has seriously dwindled in southern Italy over the past few decades...).

I was stationed in Italy back during Operation Allied Force ('99: The bombing campaign to dislodge Slobadan Milosevic), the Italians had the right to protest...but, they were also given simple instructions..."Do NOT go HERE (i.e. this part (what ever it may be) of the joint U.S./Italian Military installation)". The protesters were allowed to walk up and down the streets 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, unbothered. Then, some Green Peace yuppies decided to defile the Carabinieries orders by swarming the main gate in white jump suits and gas masks...bad move...They have "military jurisdiction" over all of Italy...a "Military Civilian Police Force", if you will. And when they (the protesters) disobeyed LAWFUL orders "Not to enter/Go near", the Carabinieri had full right (which they utilized) to go in there and beat their asses. A little extreme? Maybe...but, after dealing with the people they have been dealing with for the past 50-60 years (Mafia/Red Army), sometimes (often-times, in my book), a big-stick is required, and justified. Civil disobedience, short of a Gov't over throw, has it's limitations.

The peaceful protesters were left alone...the hooligans...they got their ass beat by well trained (and respected) Italian Police :0)
Wow. I greatly appreciate living in a country where the govt. pitting the military against it's own citizens is frowned upon, and police aren't empowered to simply "beat their asses" - not even when making lawful arrests.
I appreciate the role police play in apprehending people who truly victimize other citizens - thieves and rapists and etc. - but it's disheartening to hear an American celebrate a government's use of extreme violence against protestors, or sing the praises of a governments "big stick" being used to keep it's citizens in line.
The "Green Peace" protesters weren't your normal protesters...and oft. used violence/scare tactics to get their point across...so, I have no issue with the police resulting to violence to give the peaceful citizens a sense of security with their tax dollars.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by squinty » Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:25 pm

angelofwar wrote:
squinty wrote:
angelofwar wrote:Reading through this stuff reminds me of, and makes me greatly appreciate the Italian L.E. The have "Polizia Comuniale" for writing speeding tickets, etc., but their mainpolice arm is the Carabinieri. A police force that is a branch of the military...and, from my experience, a very effective one at that (that's why the mob/mafia has seriously dwindled in southern Italy over the past few decades...).

I was stationed in Italy back during Operation Allied Force ('99: The bombing campaign to dislodge Slobadan Milosevic), the Italians had the right to protest...but, they were also given simple instructions..."Do NOT go HERE (i.e. this part (what ever it may be) of the joint U.S./Italian Military installation)". The protesters were allowed to walk up and down the streets 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, unbothered. Then, some Green Peace yuppies decided to defile the Carabinieries orders by swarming the main gate in white jump suits and gas masks...bad move...They have "military jurisdiction" over all of Italy...a "Military Civilian Police Force", if you will. And when they (the protesters) disobeyed LAWFUL orders "Not to enter/Go near", the Carabinieri had full right (which they utilized) to go in there and beat their asses. A little extreme? Maybe...but, after dealing with the people they have been dealing with for the past 50-60 years (Mafia/Red Army), sometimes (often-times, in my book), a big-stick is required, and justified. Civil disobedience, short of a Gov't over throw, has it's limitations.

The peaceful protesters were left alone...the hooligans...they got their ass beat by well trained (and respected) Italian Police :0)
Wow. I greatly appreciate living in a country where the govt. pitting the military against it's own citizens is frowned upon, and police aren't empowered to simply "beat their asses" - not even when making lawful arrests.
I appreciate the role police play in apprehending people who truly victimize other citizens - thieves and rapists and etc. - but it's disheartening to hear an American celebrate a government's use of extreme violence against protestors, or sing the praises of a governments "big stick" being used to keep it's citizens in line.
The "Green Peace" protesters weren't your normal protesters...and oft. used violence/scare tactics to get their point across...so, I have no issue with the police resulting to violence to give the peaceful citizens a sense of security with their tax dollars.
I feel more secure knowing that I don't have to live under military jurisdiction, and I feel more secure knowing there are appropriate limits and checks on the governments use of force against me and my fellow citizens. There's a difference between a government protecting the rights of it's citizens, and protecting itself by force from citizens' exercise of their rights. The bigger the stick a government can swing against it's own people, the less free they are - and the less secure.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by shrapnel » Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:31 pm

*cough*
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by squinty » Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:33 pm

OK maybe that should have been PM...
George Orwell wrote:Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power.

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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by razi » Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:07 am

Amateur journalism absolutely has it's place. Examples:

Just so you can see what happened in Berkeley the other day:



The cops weren't contained, no one was actively resisting or fighting back in any way. The police barely tried to move the group of students (Lt. John Pike certainly didn't try, he was too busy showing off for the crowd) before the pepper spray was used. Pike and one other eventually got put on paid leave, but only after enough of a ruckus was raised by students and the media.

The current OWS news issue is a woman named Jennifer Fox in Seattle, who says being attacked by the SPD caused her to miscarry (maced, kicked in the stomach).



A previous issue: Scott Olsen, a retired Marine, shot in the face with a tear gas canister (which cracked his skull, btw). A flashbang was thrown into the crowd that tried to pull him to safety:



another Iraqi war veteran, Kayvan Sabehgi, getting his spleen ruptured:



Now tell me amateur journalism isn't important.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by TDW586 » Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:10 am

Can we please remember that a 2-minute, shaky video clip might (just possibly might) not tell the whole story?

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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by dogbane » Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:23 am

More on Kayvan Sabeghi: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/no ... an-injured" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I believe this was posted upthread already.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by crypto » Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:30 am

TDW586 wrote:Can we please remember that a 2-minute, shaky video clip might (just possibly might) not tell the whole story?

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I'm sure theres always a good reason why a pregant woman needs to get beat down by the police, and the camera angle is JUST ALL WRONG for presenting evidence as why the officers safety was in immediate danger by the woman or her fetus.


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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by razi » Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:06 pm

TDW586 wrote:Can we please remember that a 2-minute, shaky video clip might (just possibly might) not tell the whole story?
True. It left out the part where she was yelling "STOP, I'M PREGNANT!"

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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by duodecima » Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:09 pm

TDW586 wrote:Can we please remember that a 2-minute, shaky video clip might (just possibly might) not tell the whole story?

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But the same is also true of a written police report (or written professional journalist's article)- even when the author is striving for the fullest honesty and accuracy (as opposed to presenting the story that justifies their actions or a particular viewpoint, which it is very human to do) it can't show the whole picture. The data about how lousy eyewitness testimony actually is, is strong and extensive. Police are human and aren't immune from the same issues every other eyewitness has.

Any camera shows only one angle, but the more information there is about a situation, the fuller the "picture" of what happened there will be. I, for one, don't ever want there to be only one side of the story. Amateur journalism isn't the be all and end all of journalism or information, but it's a very important piece, and trying to outlaw it (as Illinois law does) or discourage it doesn't improve democracy or public safety (which is what I took to be the point of those video examples).
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by WY_Not » Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:16 pm

All issues and players aside. WTF was a pregnant woman even doing going into a potentially hostile situation like that. I don't care if you are a reporter, protester, or LEO. Going into that volatile situation while pregnant is just plain stupid.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by TDW586 » Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:17 pm

crypto wrote:
TDW586 wrote:Can we please remember that a 2-minute, shaky video clip might (just possibly might) not tell the whole story?

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I'm sure theres always a good reason why a pregant woman needs to get beat down by the police, and the camera angle is JUST ALL WRONG for presenting evidence as why the officers safety was in immediate danger by the woman or her fetus.


ETA: #occupyuterus

Didn't say that, don't be a dick. M'kay?

EDIT: You mean, the video that shows her crying and freaking out, but doesn't show anything resembling a cop anywhere near her, much less macing or kicking her? The woman that, from my glance at the video, no one could be reasonably expected to know was pregnant by sight? Yeah, compelling amateur journalism there...doesn't tell us shit. It's very, very unfortunate that she lost the child, but going to a PROTEST, PREGNANT? She apparently cared more about showing solidarity for her political group than she did about the safety of her unborn child.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by TDW586 » Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:18 pm

duodecima wrote:
TDW586 wrote:Can we please remember that a 2-minute, shaky video clip might (just possibly might) not tell the whole story?

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But the same is also true of a written police report (or written professional journalist's article)- even when the author is striving for the fullest honesty and accuracy (as opposed to presenting the story that justifies their actions or a particular viewpoint, which it is very human to do) it can't show the whole picture. The data about how lousy eyewitness testimony actually is, is strong and extensive. Police are human and aren't immune from the same issues every other eyewitness has.

Any camera shows only one angle, but the more information there is about a situation, the fuller the "picture" of what happened there will be. I, for one, don't ever want there to be only one side of the story. Amateur journalism isn't the be all and end all of journalism or information, but it's a very important piece, and trying to outlaw it (as Illinois law does) or discourage it doesn't improve democracy or public safety (which is what I took to be the point of those video examples).
Agreed, it serves an important purpose and provides another perspective, which can be a very good thing.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by duodecima » Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:24 pm

WY_Not wrote:All issues and players aside. WTF was a pregnant woman even doing going into a potentially hostile situation like that. I don't care if you are a reporter, protester, or LEO. Going into that volatile situation while pregnant is just plain stupid.
If just being stupid made violence against the stupid person legal or justifiable, this whole planet would be nothin' but chaos... There are neighborhoods where it's not smart to walk thru, especially at certain times of day, but that doesn't keep the muggers from being charged and prosecuted with crimes.

slightly off topic - to be fair to the cops, if she wasn't obviously pregnant, it's the kinda thing somebody could just shout out whether it was true or not. Question is, were their actions in those circumstances were justifiable against a non-pregnant woman or not.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by dogbane » Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:28 pm

WY_Not wrote:All issues and players aside. WTF was a pregnant woman even doing going into a potentially hostile situation like that. I don't care if you are a reporter, protester, or LEO. Going into that volatile situation while pregnant is just plain stupid.
In the case of Kayvan Sabeghi, he was reportedly just trying to get to his apartment, which was within the restricted area. As ninja-elbow has pointed out, once they start cracking heads, it can be pretty indiscriminate. Best to stay out if possible, unless putting yourself in harm's way is the goal.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by razi » Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:30 pm

WY_Not wrote:All issues and players aside. WTF was a pregnant woman even doing going into a potentially hostile situation like that. I don't care if you are a reporter, protester, or LEO. Going into that volatile situation while pregnant is just plain stupid.
Why shouldn't she be at (what was) a peaceful protest? DON'T BLAME THE VICTIM.

In other news, NYPD is being sued by protesters who were dragged into a Citibank and arrested for trespassing.



Video from inside:



This isn't a bash-the-cops thread, but an example of the systemic abuse that OWS is fighting. There is no easy answer to combat this sort of thing, which makes it a harder sell, but just because the issue is complex does not mean it should be ignored.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by TDW586 » Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:34 pm

I find it interesting that the amateur journalism video shows that veteran acting in a way that contradicts his claims. Why, if you're just walking to you apartment, would you square off with a line of riot police? How is that a reasonable course of action?

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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by razi » Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:40 pm

TDW586 wrote:I find it interesting that the amateur journalism video shows that veteran acting in a way that contradicts his claims. Why, if you're just walking to you apartment, would you square off with a line of riot police? How is that a reasonable course of action?
If his apartment is on the other side of the police line, he can in fact do both and be correct.

A better question: does it matter? Someone who defended this country got hospitalized for no reason.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by TDW586 » Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:42 pm

No reason? He was in an area, where for whatever reason police had been ordered to clear a protest, and refused to leave. Are you saying that police should never clear an area, for any reason?

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