Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by skelco » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:43 pm

squinty wrote:
Kommander wrote:At this point I am willing to let winter take care of them.
And it probably will.

I remember the fine frothy outrage the Left worked itself into when Tea Part protesters talked about revolution, and how "irresponsible" opponenents claimed their rhetoric and actions were. "Irresponsible" sometimes is just code for "exercising a right in a way I wish they wouldn't" - the left is as guilty of that as the right.
I suppose it depends on what sort of momentum is developed, maybe they'll take it indoors ;).I'm also inclined to think that many of the things that the tea party and the occupiers want are the same things, they are just unwilling to admit it at this point
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by MVegas » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:47 pm

skelco wrote:
squinty wrote:
Kommander wrote:At this point I am willing to let winter take care of them.
And it probably will.

I remember the fine frothy outrage the Left worked itself into when Tea Part protesters talked about revolution, and how "irresponsible" opponenents claimed their rhetoric and actions were. "Irresponsible" sometimes is just code for "exercising a right in a way I wish they wouldn't" - the left is as guilty of that as the right.
I suppose it depends on what sort of momentum is developed, maybe they'll take it indoors ;).I'm also inclined to think that many of the things that the tea party and the occupiers want are the same things, they are just unwilling to admit it at this point
They are both pissed about crony capitalism. I think they just differ as to where to lay the lion's share of the blame....
Hope I don't get the smackdown for this one :lol:
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by squinty » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:51 pm

raptor wrote:
Kommander wrote:Question: is it legal for local authorities to have operating hours for public parks?
Absolutely. The owner of property has the right to set whatever restrictions they chose. Obviously in the case of public property, the rules must correspond with any applicable laws. However, a park is no different than say a publicly owned office building and operating hours for it and other public agencies. A Clerk of Court office is not open 24/7 nor does it have to be, the same can be true for a park.

Kommander wrote:Silly Raptor, rights don't with responsibilities anymore.

I guess I did not read that memo. :lol:
squinty wrote:Yes, rights do come with responsibilities. You cannot expect to coerce or trample the rights of others without consequence. But it is not always the protester who is acting irresponsibly.
Part of responsibility is to accept that your actions have consequences to you and others. Those consequences may involve many things from civil action to criminal charges...or worse in some cases. A responsible person accepts responsibility for their actions, including these consequences as well as any damage caused by these actions. This acceptance of responsibility is what is needed before this group can claim oppression.
So in order to claim that you were oppressed you have to accept that repression as appropriate?
Note: I'm not claiming the %99 are horribly oppressed by any means. I remain agnostic about that charge. But I don't understand the logic that says you have to accept your unjust detention before denouncing it as unjust. To go back (I'm really sorry) to Rosa Parks: sure she knew she'd likely go to jail, and was prepared to take the risk. Did that mean she was happy about going to jail, or agreed that the authorities should have imprisoned her? What does "accept" mean, exactly, in this context?

I think the protesters who chose to stay knew they risked jail, and freely chose to take that risk. Doesn't mean they have to like it, doesn't mean they have to agree it was right that they get arrested.

Now, a park closing at a certain time, closing to all members of the public, is hardly a discriminatory "back of the bus" policy. But intent matters, and the intent of driving protesters out of the park was not - IMO - to ensure public safety or otherwise secure some public good. It was to silence a protest.

Which is fine. Winter, as Kommander said, will disburse most of the occupiers. But their grievances won't be forgotten, and those grievances resonate across a broad - and politically diverse - spectrum of the US population. We'll hear more about it, and there will be worse unrest because of it.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by Kommander » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:56 pm

We have covered the TP vs OWS before. While I think they are upset about some of the same things I think that they have very different solutions to the problems.

Squinty, regarding the parks closing. If it is ok that the park closes at a certain time then it closes at that time. Protesters are not entitled to special treatment.
Why must all the hoops be on fire?

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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by dogbane » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:57 pm

My understanding is that most ordinances about park hours and camping in parks are aimed at discouraging homeless people from hanging out and making a nuisance of themselves and to prevent assaults and other crimes. I would think a large crowd of organized protesters negates those purposes.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by squinty » Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:04 pm

dogbane wrote:My understanding is that most ordinances about park hours and camping in parks are aimed at discouraging homeless people from hanging out and making a nuisance of themselves and to prevent assaults and other crimes. I would think a large crowd of organized protesters negates those purposes.
I'm inclined to agree w/Dogbane, but theft and other crime (usually against the protesters) is a big prob;em in many of the occupation encampments. (Coe-eds sleeping outside with iMacs = tempting victims.) They've done a lot to self police and monitor such activity, but it's ongoing.

And you have to ask, why do homeless people have less right to assemble or use public space than political activists? If you can throw the troublesome bums out, why not the troublesome protesters?

My answer would be that it matters who the people in the park are troublesome to. Troublesome and threatening to their fellow citizens - sure, roust'em. Troublesome to the government or other forces who dislike a call for political change? No rousting. In America you're allowed to be troublesome to the government.

WHich kind of troublesome are the protesters? A little of both?
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by raptor » Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:04 pm

squinty wrote: So in order to claim that you were oppressed you have to accept that repression as appropriate?
In this case, what you have to do is be like any other user of public property. Enjoy it peacefully, relinquish the property when it is time for others to to use it and compensate the owner for any damage done to it.

Think of it as renting the property and the cost of the rental is free but you do have to pay for cleaning it.

On a more broader basis a person engaged in civil disobedience should be prepared to accept the consequences of his/her actions. It is the price paid to attain that "moral high ground". That is not acceptance so much as it is acknowledgement of reality. It is similar in logic to a person going into an ethnic area and yelling ethnic slurs at the top of his voice. That person should understand and accept the fact that his actions will cause people to react in a negative manner. He should not be surprised by those negative reactions even if he is exercising his right of free speech. He does not have to accept it as right or justified but he should acknowledge and accept that his actions were responsible for the reaction.

The whole purpose of civil disobedience and protest is provoke a reaction. Accordingly a person engaged in such activity should be expecting it. That is one meaning of the expression "Freedom is not free".

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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by skelco » Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:17 pm

raptor wrote:The whole purpose of civil disobedience and protest is provoke a reaction. Accordingly a person engaged in such activity should be expecting it.
I have no doubt the the better part of them are expecting something, any student of history knows that.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by Kommander » Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:19 pm

Squinty I don't think it was your intent but you just said that the homeless are "troublesome and threatening to their fellow citizens". Also I should point out that legally the why of something is usually less relevant than the what.
Why must all the hoops be on fire?

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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by ninja-elbow » Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:25 pm

Re Protesters v. Homeless.

Homeless are trying to sleep someplace. Protesters are practicing a constitutional right. Sleeping in a park is not a constitutional right like practicng free speach and assembly is. As the mayor of Portland has said, 1A is bigger than city ordinances.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by Kommander » Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:39 pm

So if the homeless guy puts out a sign with a political slogan he's good to go?
Why must all the hoops be on fire?

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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by dogbane » Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:40 pm

Kommander wrote:So if the homeless guy puts out a sign with a political slogan he's good to go?
That's what I would do. :lol:

[edit to add: not really. That's what the laughing emoticon is supposed to represent. Perhaps I should have used this one: :wink:

Anyways, tear gas is for crowds. Pepper spray is for individual homeless guys who refuse to be rousted. If I were homeless and set up in the park with a protest sign all by my lonesome, I'd expect to be removed before morning.]
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by andygates » Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:47 pm

...and then instead of getting moved via the drunk-tank, on you get tear-gassed in the face.

Seriously, what the fuck? :shock:
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by Kommander » Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:51 pm

The drunk tank is too small for several hundred protesting bums.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by ninja-elbow » Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:10 pm

Kommander wrote:So if the homeless guy puts out a sign with a political slogan he's good to go?
If it's that easy, then yes. I guess the city of Portland is also looking at actions. What constitutes practicing free speech and assembly? If sleeping on a park bench and putting up a politically based sign is that, GTG.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by dogbane » Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:17 pm

The vet who was shot with a "police projectile" (reportedly a tear gas canister, not a rubber bullet) in Oakland is 24-year-old Scott Olsen, who served two tours in Iraq working in "tactical communications as part of the Marines' 3rd Battalion"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/2 ... ml#s434139" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by DialM » Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:09 pm

squinty wrote:
dogbane wrote:My understanding is that most ordinances about park hours and camping in parks are aimed at discouraging homeless people from hanging out and making a nuisance of themselves and to prevent assaults and other crimes. I would think a large crowd of organized protesters negates those purposes.
I'm inclined to agree w/Dogbane, but theft and other crime (usually against the protesters) is a big prob;em in many of the occupation encampments. (Coe-eds sleeping outside with iMacs = tempting victims.) They've done a lot to self police and monitor such activity, but it's ongoing.

And you have to ask, why do homeless people have less right to assemble or use public space than political activists? If you can throw the troublesome bums out, why not the troublesome protesters?

My answer would be that it matters who the people in the park are troublesome to. Troublesome and threatening to their fellow citizens - sure, roust'em. Troublesome to the government or other forces who dislike a call for political change? No rousting. In America you're allowed to be troublesome to the government.

WHich kind of troublesome are the protesters? A little of both?
What I don't understand is why the protesters are protesting. Are they really calling for political change? Well, our existing system has a little-known mechanism built in to address this: it is called voting. The problem is, I would bet that 99% of the protesters who voted did so for the exact people that are responsible for the exact things they are protesting against. You don't like corporations buying politicians? Vote for politicians who don't accept cash and equivalent support from corporations. You don't like the way corporations operate, or how they are regulated? Vote for people who feel the same way you do. Either you are protesting against exactly what you have voted for, or you really don't represent anywhere close to 99% of anything.

Oh, and stop thinking of the "1%" as some evil cabal, coordinating their efforts to fleece the "99%." There were 1,379,822 tax returns that made up the top 1% of all returns filed in 2009. They would need a pretty big secret lair in which to conduct their nefarious plottings. To large extent, systems in which people operate dictate their actions, which then appear coordinated. Obviously the more money you have, the more you can design the system, as long as the "99%" keeps voting like drones.

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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by DialM » Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:16 pm

Kommander wrote:So if the homeless guy puts out a sign with a political slogan he's good to go?
The Grey Man maneuver: even the homeless can do it.

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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by squinty » Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:26 pm

Kommander wrote:Squinty I don't think it was your intent but you just said that the homeless are "troublesome and threatening to their fellow citizens". Also I should point out that legally the why of something is usually less relevant than the what.
Dogbane postulated hat the rationale behind closing the park was to limit antisocial behavior at night in the park, and discourage people from permanently residing there. The behavior's he described - public drinking, crime, aggro panhandling - infringe on the rights of other citizens to some extent, and I could see a reason for locking up or discouraging someone engaged in those behaviors.

I did say that the homeless should have as much right to access public space as anyone else - and perhaps more need.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by squinty » Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:30 pm

DialM wrote:
squinty wrote:
dogbane wrote:My understanding is that most ordinances about park hours and camping in parks are aimed at discouraging homeless people from hanging out and making a nuisance of themselves and to prevent assaults and other crimes. I would think a large crowd of organized protesters negates those purposes.
I'm inclined to agree w/Dogbane, but theft and other crime (usually against the protesters) is a big prob;em in many of the occupation encampments. (Coe-eds sleeping outside with iMacs = tempting victims.) They've done a lot to self police and monitor such activity, but it's ongoing.

And you have to ask, why do homeless people have less right to assemble or use public space than political activists? If you can throw the troublesome bums out, why not the troublesome protesters?

My answer would be that it matters who the people in the park are troublesome to. Troublesome and threatening to their fellow citizens - sure, roust'em. Troublesome to the government or other forces who dislike a call for political change? No rousting. In America you're allowed to be troublesome to the government.

WHich kind of troublesome are the protesters? A little of both?
What I don't understand is why the protesters are protesting. Are they really calling for political change? Well, our existing system has a little-known mechanism built in to address this: it is called voting. The problem is, I would bet that 99% of the protesters who voted did so for the exact people that are responsible for the exact things they are protesting against. You don't like corporations buying politicians? Vote for politicians who don't accept cash and equivalent support from corporations. You don't like the way corporations operate, or how they are regulated? Vote for people who feel the same way you do. Either you are protesting against exactly what you have voted for, or you really don't represent anywhere close to 99% of anything.

Oh, and stop thinking of the "1%" as some evil cabal, coordinating their efforts to fleece the "99%." There were 1,379,822 tax returns that made up the top 1% of all returns filed in 2009. They would need a pretty big secret lair in which to conduct their nefarious plottings. To large extent, systems in which people operate dictate their actions, which then appear coordinated. Obviously the more money you have, the more you can design the system, as long as the "99%" keeps voting like drones.
Yay for third party candidates. But there's no big secret, no closet conspiracy. The corporate usurpation of representative democracy has happened out in the open. No plotting, no secret conspiracy. It's pretty public. Also, there are other ways to influence elected officials other than votes or bribes. One way is to demonstrate and get your opinion heard. You don't need to vote meekly and then silently eat whatever legislative poo sandwich your representative comes up with, and wait silently 'til the end of his term to vote for someone else. You can - and should - stand up and say "hey, rep! I don't like the laws you're passing, I don't think you've lived up to your campaign promises. Try something different if you want my vote thee (2,1, etc.) years from now!" This is perfectly legit. It's called petitioning the government.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by razi » Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:00 pm

The point of the protests is that the protesters feel that voting didn't work. They've taken to the street.

Most of the protests are peaceful. However, there are agents provocateurs in the crowds to instigate police response against the protesters. Some of them are Black Block, some are just vocal agitators. One was spotted at the recent citibank arrests a few days ago, but this tactic is nothing new.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by m ellis allen » Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:14 pm

ei8htx wrote:
m ellis allen wrote:
ei8htx wrote:
Wolfblade wrote:Not good.

http://www.pressherald.com/news/Chemica ... pment.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I'm calling bullshit.
im curious as to why you say this?


as i said earlier and as others have said, i am concerend about what happens when a group of people begin to get frustrated about the lack of progress. ive seen minor instances of what can happen durring a mob-mentality gone bad. that was 30 people at most, this is a lot more.
By "bullshit" I mean it didn't happen. It's a false flag operation. I could be wrong but I personally feel it isn't true.

Witnesses said a silver car had been circling before the attack, its occupants shouting things like "Get a job" and "You communist." They believe someone from that car threw the device, according to a statement from Occupy Maine

I mean isn't that just perfect? That's what the protesters are referred to as now. Isn't it convenient that someone who chucks a "chemical bomb" happened to yell those things? And who circles a crowd several times yelling stuff with a "chemical bomb" in the car, thus getting lots and lots of unneeded attention before tossing it?

(Why am I sarcastically quoting "chemical bomb" when such reputable sources like HuffPost refer to it as this? Google image "Kurds chemical bomb" for the real thing).

As someone who's engaged in minor teenage mischief at some point in his life, I can attest to that when you're doing something stupid like this, you typically laugh your ass off while hauling ass away. You don't turn and shout some half baked political tag.

Also, convenient that out of all these hundreds or thousands of OWS people, no one got a license plate.

If you still think this really happened, then I'm sorry, but I can't discuss it. I'm on thin ice already and had to edit myself for a comparison to the likelihood of a genuine slipup about Kanye West being a jackass (not that he isn't). So, I'm sorry...
i can see how you would think that, and i wont push the topic any further with you as i see no need to instigate.
i only wish to state a few facts, and if you do or do not change your mind after is of no concern to me, its your opinions and you have every right to them

first "Also, convenient that out of all these hundreds or thousands of OWS people, no one got a license plate."
um no..try like 30 maybe, with it being 4:30 am most were asleep or in tents. also in the area the occupy there is literally a loop that any car could do and then easily get away.

second is that maine, especially portland is demigrafically (sp) very divided between rich-poor, old-young, and dem-repub, as well as being heavily stuck in some "older" ways and idealoliges

the "chemical bomb" while not an acurate discription is what it was and is sadly used often enough that people in maine know the term well enough (about every other month various dumb teenagers pull a chemical bomb stunt)

and again if this changes your mind is of no concern to me. i like the facts even if they might prove me wrong.

also i hold no alegiance to the occupy maine movement and am mearly a observer
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by andygates » Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:32 pm

razi wrote:The point of the protests is that the protesters feel that voting didn't work. They've taken to the street.
This. Because lobbying and petitioning is big-money business, and the vote -- both the public vote, steered by all those ads, and the lobbying influence in the corridors of power -- follows the money. The entire system , say the protestors, is in hock to big-money interests: the 1%. And the crux of their argument is that 1% driving 99% isn't even close to democracy.

High levels of income inequality is historically linked to plenty of unrest. So whatever your opinion on the politics, the very real increase in income inequality does lead and is leading to civil drama: that's an observed fact whenever this situation occurs.
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Re: Bloomberg: Jobs crisis could spark riots here (in USA)

Post by Kommander » Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:27 pm

Just as an aside here I would like to know why peaceful protesters are wearing Guy Fawkes masks? It seems odd that peaceful protesters would want to channel a fictional murderous revolutionary or a guy who failed to blow up parliament.
Why must all the hoops be on fire?

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