New Zealand Mosque Shootings

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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by flybynight » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:20 pm

I'm still waiting to hear what the gun owners in New Zealand have to say. I mean , I understand they are subjects rather than citizens in the sense of a Democracy or Republic like us. But you would think the people who live there would be I dunno, freedom loving? Rather then, oh well nothing we can do, we're are not in charge
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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by Mojo Jojo » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:52 pm

Just to clarify, NZ is a democracy. We are part of the CommonWealth, but these days that is largely symbolic.
And as for the gun control aspect, the culture of gun ownership here is vastly different from USA. The 2nd Amendment doesn't exist here, and the view of gun ownership has always been that it is a privilege and not a right. The largest wild animal to shoot here is a deer, followed by pigs and then rabbits, and nothing that is life and death. So no armor wearing bears stalking you through the woods that we need to worry about.
The farming community have come out and said that they are behind the new gun laws, and they would arguably be the largest part of the population that 'needs' a gun.
Having said that, there will be a very vocal group who come out and object to the new gun laws. But they are an absolute minority.
So I would view it that rather than having some freedom removed, we are reinforcing the right to be who you are and able to express it without the fear of being gunned down mid-prayer. Or at least attempting to minimize the risk.
As I said, it is a completely different culture here and unless you have spent significant time in both countries it won't be something you can really understand.

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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by boskone » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:54 pm

flybynight wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:20 pm
I'm still waiting to hear what the gun owners in New Zealand have to say. I mean , I understand they are subjects rather than citizens in the sense of a Democracy or Republic like us. But you would think the people who live there would be I dunno, freedom loving? Rather then, oh well nothing we can do, we're are not in charge
People are trained from an early age to value safety and order over anything, so "safety" has become a thought-stopping paradigm.

I see it a lot, where something's acceptability is determined by "how can it be used to harm someone" rather than "how can it be used to help someone". Not even just guns; the same argument gets used on things like encryption regularly, "Terrorists/criminals/whatever used it, so it's bad".

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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by flybynight » Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:41 pm

Mojo Jojo wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:52 pm
Just to clarify, NZ is a democracy. We are part of the CommonWealth, but these days that is largely symbolic.
And as for the gun control aspect, the culture of gun ownership here is vastly different from USA. The 2nd Amendment doesn't exist here, and the view of gun ownership has always been that it is a privilege and not a right. The largest wild animal to shoot here is a deer, followed by pigs and then rabbits, and nothing that is life and death. So no armor wearing bears stalking you through the woods that we need to worry about.
The farming community have come out and said that they are behind the new gun laws, and they would arguably be the largest part of the population that 'needs' a gun.
Having said that, there will be a very vocal group who come out and object to the new gun laws. But they are an absolute minority.
So I would view it that rather than having some freedom removed, we are reinforcing the right to be who you are and able to express it without the fear of being gunned down mid-prayer. Or at least attempting to minimize the risk.
As I said, it is a completely different culture here and unless you have spent significant time in both countries it won't be something you can really understand.
I don't keep semi automatic firearms for life or death attacks by armored bears . And you're wrong. The largest wild animal in your country is not a deer. The events of last week proved that. I've never considered my life and my families safety a privilege
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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by Stercutus » Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:33 am

New Zealand has a small fraction of the cocaine, opioid and meth based drug abuse that we see in the US. They love their weed and alcohol but the link to weed and violent crime is pretty weak. Alcohol has much more common violence association but this is usually associated with family and partner abuse. The rate of benzodiazepine prescriptions is also a fraction of the US.

Subsequently they have a fraction of the violent crime and mass shootings we have in the US, including a murder (murder not homicide) rate about half of the US.

Banning semi-auto rifles should have zero impact on both self defense homicide and murder rates. Might it thwart future terror attacks with a rifle as the weapon? Maybe. But since that was a one off event it seems unlikely that such an event would reoccur anyway. Having semi-auto rifles in the hands of the public is an extreme data point that is unlikely to thwart any such attacks.
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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by woodsghost » Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:16 am

Stercutus wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:33 am
New Zealand has a small fraction of the cocaine, opioid and meth based drug abuse that we see in the US. They love their weed and alcohol but the link to weed and violent crime is pretty weak. Alcohol has much more common violence association but this is usually associated with family and partner abuse. The rate of benzodiazepine prescriptions is also a fraction of the US.

Subsequently they have a fraction of the violent crime and mass shootings we have in the US, including a murder (murder not homicide) rate about half of the US.

Banning semi-auto rifles should have zero impact on both self defense homicide and murder rates. Might it thwart future terror attacks with a rifle as the weapon? Maybe. But since that was a one off event it seems unlikely that such an event would reoccur anyway. Having semi-auto rifles in the hands of the public is an extreme data point that is unlikely to thwart any such attacks.
What we have seen in European countries is that full auto weapons and hand grenades can be brought into countries with very tight weapons laws. We have also seen other items (cars/trucks/fire) become weaponized. Controlling tools does not work. Dealing with the people is the next option to try, if we are willing. But that is above my pay grade.
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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by Stercutus » Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:29 am

Yes but the NZ shooter was a third state shooter. Therefore NZ's ability to deal with him is limited. In my mind it would make a lot more sense to restrict possession of firearms from non-citizens in NZ as an appropriate response but I am just another 3rd state guy. Taking the guns away from their citizens as a response to actions by a third party seems idiotic to me.
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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by absinthe beginner » Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:11 am

Stercutus said: Taking the guns away from their citizens as a response to actions by a third party seems idiotic to me.
Reason has little to do with this. I suspect New Zealand's elites were looking for a convenient pretext to ban semi-auto weapons, and the shooter gave them one. In his manifesto he explicitly stated that he wanted to provoke governments into over-reach on gun control to provoke a showdown with gun owners. As far as him being a 3rd state shooter, Aussies and Kiwis are so close culturally as to be almost indistinguishable. New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern isn't going to let a trivial detail like the shooter being an Australian derail the opportunity to ban an entire category of weapons that she believes should not be in civilian hands.

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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by raptor » Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:22 am

The shooter's manifesto ...any shooter's manifesto is always given too much publicity. That is one reason why scum like that publish them.

That should but will not atop.

As for gun control, it is never about safety. Never. It is always about control.

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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by Mojo Jojo » Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:30 pm

Not quite sure where to begin with this.
I should have clarified in my response that that I was referring to wild animals for hunting. Calling the shooter from our recent event an animal is being too generous to him.
The more recent posts simply demonstrate my other comment that the differences in opinion about gun control are so massive on a cultural basis that we will never be in agreement. The view that guns are for self defense is not one that is held here. Guns are a tool for hunting, animal culls and sport. So for hunting, there is no need for a semi-automatic with a 30 round mag. If you need to shoot like that to hit a deer you need to get back to the range and take a few lessons. Likewise handguns are also extremely restricted, and there is no such thing as a concealed carry permit for standard citizens. If anyone starts walking around the streets carrying a gun the response is pretty rapid and intense. So the differences are massive on a cultural basis.
From my perspective, it would be great to stop non-NZers getting a gun license, and I suspect that will be one of the next steps.
But ultimately if a nut job wants to kill people, they will. And they will use whatever they can get their hands on, be it a truck, knife or a plane. But if it can be made more difficult for them to get weapons that can cause rapid, high volume deaths then that will reduce any impact they may cause.
The opposite position from ours is the one that the US is taking, that of limited additional controls after a mass shooting. To the rest of the world the fact that events like Sandy-Hook can continue to happen is appalling.

On another note, over the years that I have been reading the forums here I've noticed a massive shift from a general preparedness forum, to one that has a much larger focus on gun related topics and some of the posts that are allowed now would have been banned a few years back. So I'm sure that this post will generate a few tense thoughts, but ultimately we will never have the same view on this topic, and so be it.

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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by NT2C » Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:11 pm

Mojo Jojo wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:30 pm
To the rest of the world the fact that events like Sandy-Hook can continue to happen is appalling.
I would respectfully suggest that A) you do not speak for "the rest of the world", B) the rest of the world needs to take a closer look at the atrocities happening within their own borders before pointing any fingers.

List of School Massacres by Death Toll
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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by Stercutus » Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:33 pm

When I first started posting here I noticed that while most of my posts were in Survival Discussion that 75% of all posts were in firearms related topics. That hasn't changed much over the years. A lot of members here are either current/ former military, LE or some kind of security field (or as in my case both). Most are not of course. But still firearms are a frequent topic of discussion because firearms are used for self defense and hunting, two elements of prepping that many people are interested in.

This site differs in a lot of ways from other prep sites in that "crazy" is often shown the door rather quickly. Those who have genius ideas of buying a small arsenal and then "scavenging" supplies in the event of: "whatever" get shouted down. This leads to a lot of posts in firearms related topics that tend to be repetitive.
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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by Stercutus » Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:40 pm

NT2C wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:11 pm
Mojo Jojo wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:30 pm
To the rest of the world the fact that events like Sandy-Hook can continue to happen is appalling.
I would respectfully suggest that A) you do not speak for "the rest of the world", B) the rest of the world needs to take a closer look at the atrocities happening within their own borders before pointing any fingers.

List of School Massacres by Death Toll
Hardly even a complete list either:

https://www.cnn.com/2014/12/16/world/as ... index.html

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ation.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/15/worl ... hools.html
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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by woodsghost » Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:24 pm

Mojo Jojo,

I think you are right, that firearms make up a lot of the posts here. But then, I think early on a lot had not been said about many topics. Now, in 2019, much has been said about most topics already. But firearms are something which continues to evolve at a rapid pace. Fire starters don't seem to evolve at the same pace.

Even backpacks have slowed in their pace of evolution.

And I'd love to see more posts about off grid living. I enjoy reading about the homesteads our friends in the American NW have been posting.
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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by flybynight » Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:23 pm

Mojo Jojo wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:30 pm
Not quite sure where to begin with this.
I should have clarified in my response that that I was referring to wild animals for hunting. Calling the shooter from our recent event an animal is being too generous to him.
The more recent posts simply demonstrate my other comment that the differences in opinion about gun control are so massive on a cultural basis that we will never be in agreement. The view that guns are for self defense is not one that is held here. Guns are a tool for hunting, animal culls and sport. So for hunting, there is no need for a semi-automatic with a 30 round mag. If you need to shoot like that to hit a deer you need to get back to the range and take a few lessons. Likewise handguns are also extremely restricted, and there is no such thing as a concealed carry permit for standard citizens. If anyone starts walking around the streets carrying a gun the response is pretty rapid and intense. So the differences are massive on a cultural basis.
From my perspective, it would be great to stop non-NZers getting a gun license, and I suspect that will be one of the next steps.
But ultimately if a nut job wants to kill people, they will. And they will use whatever they can get their hands on, be it a truck, knife or a plane. But if it can be made more difficult for them to get weapons that can cause rapid, high volume deaths then that will reduce any impact they may cause.
The opposite position from ours is the one that the US is taking, that of limited additional controls after a mass shooting. To the rest of the world the fact that events like Sandy-Hook can continue to happen is appalling.

On another note, over the years that I have been reading the forums here I've noticed a massive shift from a general preparedness forum, to one that has a much larger focus on gun related topics and some of the posts that are allowed now would have been banned a few years back. So I'm sure that this post will generate a few tense thoughts, but ultimately we will never have the same view on this topic, and so be it.
You don't have to clarify your response. It was perfectly clear your intent. Largest huntable animal is deer. Dismisive snarky comment about no armoured bears. Superior attitude New Zealand view guns as hunting tools rather than weapons. We can discuss it further the next time, and there will be a next time . Your leaders response to naked aggression was to tell everyone to roll onto their backs and beg for mercy. Bless your heart :wink:
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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by absinthe beginner » Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:33 pm

Our media flagships are lamenting the fact America doesn't have a leader "as good as New Zealand's Prime Minister" who will ban all those evil semi-automatic firearms.

https://thehill.com/homenews/media/4353 ... e-minister

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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by NT2C » Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:37 pm

**ahem** No Politics? Remember that rule?

I do not want to lock this thread but will if I have to clean up a political mess.
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Sic quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit; occidentis telum est - Seneca the Younger, Epistles

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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by boskone » Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:17 pm

NT2C wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:37 pm
political mess.
The combination of these two words seems redundant.

</rimshot>

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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by NT2C » Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:46 pm

boskone wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:17 pm
NT2C wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:37 pm
political mess.
The combination of these two words seems redundant.

</rimshot>
I would view it as a double dog dare.
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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by absinthe beginner » Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:15 am

NZ mosque attack shows that its time to shut off FB live and deny other would-be whack jobs the opportunity to livestream their atrocities.

https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/03/artic ... book-live/

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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by Stercutus » Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:29 am

absinthe beginner wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:15 am
NZ mosque attack shows that its time to shut off FB live and deny other would-be whack jobs the opportunity to livestream their atrocities.

https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/03/artic ... book-live/
That is another political mess that goes to 1A Rights in the US. Other countries are less burdened. From a legal perspective one court argument might be that it places the public in immediate danger and therefore is not protected speech. It is a tough standard to meet.
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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by drop bear » Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:50 am

Stercutus wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:29 am
absinthe beginner wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:15 am
NZ mosque attack shows that its time to shut off FB live and deny other would-be whack jobs the opportunity to livestream their atrocities.

https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/03/artic ... book-live/
That is another political mess that goes to 1A Rights in the US. Other countries are less burdened. From a legal perspective one court argument might be that it places the public in immediate danger and therefore is not protected speech. It is a tough standard to meet.
Snowden and spies selling secrets would be a precedent. Where the information damages the country.

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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by Stercutus » Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:21 pm

drop bear wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:50 am
Stercutus wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:29 am
absinthe beginner wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:15 am
NZ mosque attack shows that its time to shut off FB live and deny other would-be whack jobs the opportunity to livestream their atrocities.

https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/03/artic ... book-live/
That is another political mess that goes to 1A Rights in the US. Other countries are less burdened. From a legal perspective one court argument might be that it places the public in immediate danger and therefore is not protected speech. It is a tough standard to meet.
Snowden and spies selling secrets would be a precedent. Where the information damages the country.
The government can't designate something a secret that would cause damage to it before it exists.
These days of dust
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Will blow away with this new Son

But I'll kneel down wait for now
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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by drop bear » Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:06 pm

Stercutus wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:21 pm
drop bear wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:50 am
Stercutus wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:29 am
absinthe beginner wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:15 am
NZ mosque attack shows that its time to shut off FB live and deny other would-be whack jobs the opportunity to livestream their atrocities.

https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/03/artic ... book-live/
That is another political mess that goes to 1A Rights in the US. Other countries are less burdened. From a legal perspective one court argument might be that it places the public in immediate danger and therefore is not protected speech. It is a tough standard to meet.
Snowden and spies selling secrets would be a precedent. Where the information damages the country.
The government can't designate something a secret that would cause damage to it before it exists.
Well it probably can. Depends on the damage that information would cause. I don't know. Say I found out how to make sarin gas from flour.

Pretty sure most governments would stop me from posting the recipe on YouTube.

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