New Zealand Mosque Shootings

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New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by NT2C » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:51 am

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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by Stercutus » Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:10 am

Some LiveStream

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zea ... rch-mosque

Lockdown is still in place in several parts of the city. The situation may not be over.
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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by JeeperCreeper » Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:07 am

Just saw that 40 lost their lives and 20 injured.

Sad that evil like this can exist anywhere. I pray for the families.

This is a tough one.
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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by Stercutus » Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:47 am

A 28-year-old white Australian man who claimed responsibility for the shooting reportedly published a 74-page anti-immigrant manifesto prior to the killings. He traveled to the island nation to train and committ the atatck, authorities said.
Some sad irony.

They have upped the murder toll to 49 with a number of kids being victims.

No death penalty in NZ, tis a shame.
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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by Ellywick » Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:40 am

God, not much to say other than this is just so terrible. Even as someone who works in mental health, sometimes with violent people, it's still hard to fathom why someone would plan such a horrific crime against complete strangers for no other purpose than to cause pain. They can try to excuse it for some bullshit cause or another, but people like this just want to watch the world burn.
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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by Stercutus » Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:29 am

Ellywick wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:40 am
They can try to excuse it for some bullshit cause or another, but people like this just want to watch the world burn.
Actually that is pretty much what he said. He wants to kill off half the population of the planet to save the environment. Stated he is an "Ethno-Eco Terrorist" so he just wants to kill of the people he doesn't like.
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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by woodsghost » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:53 am

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/arti ... d=12213039

A good ways down one sees that the mosque with 7 dead had a local congregant leave and return with "a rifle or a shotgun" and fired at the attackers, driving them away.

Places of worship really need to take security seriously. Local response reduces the number of hurt and dead.
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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by Stercutus » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:13 pm

Carrying weapons in defense of self and others is generally not allowed in NZ. However NZ is normally quite safe. More people were murdered in the attack then in the whole country last year. NZ does have one of the highest rates of gun ownership in the world per capita though.
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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by Red Tamarillo » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:51 am

It will still be a few days before the news squares itself i.e. at the start it was reported multiple gunmen attacking the two locations at the same time (after all there were 4 people in custody), but now it's the same guy at both locations (they're only about a 5-10min drive apart- dependent on post Earthquake roads and traffic).
One of the people arrested and now released was a random guy who likes wearing camo, unrelated to anything that had happened.
Who knows who the other two people in custody are, they might be unrelated to, or just housemates (though he was from another city), or maybe were on the same forums as him? The police have had enough time to question them.

It's now looking like the gun mentioned with the bystander/victim didn't happen, that it was one of the potential victims at the 2nd mosque wrestling it off him and making him flee, but not knowing how to use it.
Maybe that's why he didn't post the second attack, because he would have looked 'bad' to his perceived peers. He had a soundtrack playing- didn't that Norwegian killer do the same?

I'm surprised this thread doesn't have more traction, as the gopro video he posted of his attack has multiple lessons- on survival especially. There were opportunities for people to rush him when he had his back turned, and was doing magazine changes- he had problems with one of his gun's at one stage, and had taped magazines together opposite each other. The people/victims in the moment don't/didn't have the benefits of realizing this, may not have been fit enough people, and didn't have time to talk/convince multiple people to act together.

Brief description of video (from memory, note I'm not gun savvy enough to tell exact models, or bumpstock vs auto), he starts off with ?auto shotgun in entrance/hallway fires all the rounds from it as quickly as possible, discards and uses .223 semi auto (?with bumpstock) with strobe attached, gets into hall where two groups of people are huddled in opposite corners, concentrates on first corner, then one behind him, goes into hallway and picks back up some mags taped together he's dropped earlier, more shooting. Then leaves building back to car, where he's got a jam. Picks up another .223 semi auto/auto, goes back to street, a bit of long distance random shooting. Then back into hallway and hall where he goes to both piles of bodies and finishes off people. Then back out where he shoots the woman pleading for her life on the street. Then into his car, and off to the second mosque. Video ends before there.

The people in the piles would have thought he'd left for good each time, but he came back at least twice. I didn't count how many 30rnd mags he had, but if felt like at least 10- one of the survivors was quoted as saying he was just hoping the guy would run out of bullets. Another lesson- a lot of bullets.

I'm not sure how I feel about the general advice to not watch the video. As the journalists writing it have. Does it inform one of evil, or desensitise? I can see some immature kids brought up on first person shooters not understanding. Should all our voting citizens/civilians be more aware of what goes on?

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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by woodsghost » Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:06 am

Red Tamarillo wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:51 am
It's now looking like the gun mentioned with the bystander/victim didn't happen, that it was one of the potential victims at the 2nd mosque wrestling it off him and making him flee, but not knowing how to use it.
Good information. If this proves to be true I"ll edit my post above.
Red Tamarillo wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:51 am
I'm not sure how I feel about the general advice to not watch the video. As the journalists writing it have. Does it inform one of evil, or desensitise? I can see some immature kids brought up on first person shooters not understanding. Should all our voting citizens/civilians be more aware of what goes on?
This is probably worth some discussion. There is a tension between "learning lessons" and "honoring evil." And I think American media is grappling with trying to get lots of attention but realizing they are openly being played and used. They have been used for 2 decades, but I don't think a perpetrator has ever been this open about it.

The rest of what you posted is interesting. From an American perspective, one can say "always be armed" and "get out ASAP." Depending on one's disposition, one might say "get one's family out ASAP and then protect others." That is full of personal decisions. People in other countries will have to make their own choices and deal with their governments, as appropriate.
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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by absinthe beginner » Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:02 am

One of the four people arrested in the aftermath of the incident was a dumb-ass who dressed in cammies and went out carrying a gun to pick up his child from school (he was afraid for her safety). That seems incomprehensibly stupid to me, and he's lucky the police showed great restraint when they encountered him.

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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by absinthe beginner » Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:13 am

One of the most discouraging things about these recent mass shootings is how so many people immediately rush to fit them into their own narrative and agenda-pushing, without regard for the actual facts in the case. Especially the claims that it is a "false flag" attack designed by (insert name of evil mendacious "them") for some sinister purpose. There is truth and there is untruth, and it seems more and more people simply don't care about the truth, they just want more "evidence" to advance their agenda. It denies the victims' humanity by reducing them to "crisis actors" or some such nonsense when it is horribly clear and undeniable that an atrocity was committed against innocent people.

The fact that the shooter spend a considerable amount of time wandering the globe and visiting places like Pakistan, Turkey, and North Korea is going to be grist for the Internet conspiracy theory mills.
Last edited by absinthe beginner on Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by Stercutus » Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:53 am

absinthe beginner wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:13 am
One of the most discouraging things about these recent mass shootings is how so many people immediately rush to fit them into their own narrative and agenda-pushing, without regard for the actual facts in the case. Especially the claims that it is a "false flag" attack designed by (insert name of evil mendacious "them") for some sinister purpose. There is truth and there is untruth, and it seems more and more people simply don't care about the truth, they just want more "evidence" to advance their agenda. It denies the victims' humanity by reducing them to "crisis actors" or some such nonsense when it is horribly clear and undeniable that an atrocity was committed against innocent people.

Part of the problem is that it is tough to pigeon hole the shooter neatly in to a political spectrum. He claims to have carried out the attack to protect the planet and the environment from over population from groups that he believes are stressing the planet with too high of a birth rate. The same groups are intruding on the domination o the former colonial powers in his region of the world.

A self proclaimed white supremacist, eco- fascist whose politics are most closely aligned with the People's Republic of China is kind of a rare bird. The only thing that can be said with any clarity is that he is already well on the way achieving some of his goals such as changing gun laws in NZ.
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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by absinthe beginner » Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:12 am

Stercutus said: The only thing that can be said with any clarity is that he is already well on the way achieving some of his goals such as changing gun laws in NZ.
The gunman seems to have taken a very cynical and calculated approach that official actions taken in response to his rampage would provoke a backlash that would end up further advancing his cause and agenda.

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-03- ... e-shooting

Less than a day after a terrorist attack at two mosques that left 49 people dead and several fighting for their lives, New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said she will change gun laws of the country, with the prime minister noting that the New Zealand government is now looking at banning semi-automatic weapons.

“While the nation grapples with a form of grief and anger that we have not experienced before, we are seeking answers,” Ardern said during a Saturday morning news conference in Wellington, cited by Bloomberg. “I can tell you one thing right now, our guns laws will change."

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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by flybynight » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:03 pm

Maybe I've just looked in the wrong places, but how was he captured? I've seen detailed accounts of the attack but no mention of the end. Was he overpowered? Chased and then surrounded by Police and subdued? Or did he just sit in his car waiting for the police to cuff him ?


I'm having a hard time understanding how one day later the PM will ban semi auto's after the what , first and only mass shooting in NZ?
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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by Stercutus » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:29 pm

He had stated that he was not going to fight NZ LEO's, that he had no beef with them. I imagine he surrendered when confronted but there were reports of a vehicle crashed in to a tree, likely his.

Video ends before there.
Reports have it at the second mosque he was confronted and disarmed by a victim while reloading and he then fled. This may be the reason why he did not post the second video as he would have looked bad to his fellow child murderers.
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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by NT2C » Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:23 pm

absinthe beginner wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:02 am
One of the four people arrested in the aftermath of the incident was a dumb-ass who dressed in cammies and went out carrying a gun to pick up his child from school (he was afraid for her safety). That seems incomprehensibly stupid to me, and he's lucky the police showed great restraint when they encountered him.
But, but it was the 100% tactifool thing to do! :crazy:

Seriously, there's a lot of things we can learn from this but I think one of the most important is that after an "incident" when the authorities show up, do not look like you're part of the problem. This applies regardless of the nature of the incident because there will always be "authorities" (usually legitimate but sometimes not) who show up later. If you make yourself to look like one of the things they're responding to you may not enjoy the result.
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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by NT2C » Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:28 pm

flybynight wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:03 pm
I'm having a hard time understanding how one day later the PM will ban semi auto's after the what , first and only mass shooting in NZ?
First this century but not the first for the country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... ew_Zealand
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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by Red Tamarillo » Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:39 pm

flybynight wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:03 pm
Maybe I've just looked in the wrong places, but how was he captured? I've seen detailed accounts of the attack but no mention of the end. Was he overpowered? Chased and then surrounded by Police and subdued? Or did he just sit in his car waiting for the police to cuff him ?


I'm having a hard time understanding how one day later the PM will ban semi auto's after the what , first and only mass shooting in NZ?
Maybe car rammed/crashed, then not prepared to be shot himself, so gave up to the two cops with handguns. It's different when he was faced with people who could shoot back.

There's been a few mass shootings over the years. First one in the 40's with a guy with a 7mm or .303, though his wife may have been involved in the first shooting. Stanley Graham was his name.
Then the Aramoana massacre in 1990, the guy there had a Norinco semi auto amongst others. I always thought that had led to tight gun controls a bit like in the wake of the Port Arthur massacre in Australia. But obviously not.
And a few slaughters of families by one member with a gun.

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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by Red Tamarillo » Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:41 pm

NT2C wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:23 pm
absinthe beginner wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:02 am
One of the four people arrested in the aftermath of the incident was a dumb-ass who dressed in cammies and went out carrying a gun to pick up his child from school (he was afraid for her safety). That seems incomprehensibly stupid to me, and he's lucky the police showed great restraint when they encountered him.
But, but it was the 100% tactifool thing to do! :crazy:

Seriously, there's a lot of things we can learn from this but I think one of the most important is that after an "incident" when the authorities show up, do not look like you're part of the problem. This applies regardless of the nature of the incident because there will always be "authorities" (usually legitimate but sometimes not) who show up later. If you make yourself to look like one of the things they're responding to you may not enjoy the result.
Christchurch has got it's share of the slightly knocked off, just like every other town/city out there.

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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by Red Tamarillo » Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:46 pm

woodsghost wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:06 am
Red Tamarillo wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:51 am
It's now looking like the gun mentioned with the bystander/victim didn't happen, that it was one of the potential victims at the 2nd mosque wrestling it off him and making him flee, but not knowing how to use it.
Good information. If this proves to be true I"ll edit my post above.
Red Tamarillo wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:51 am
I'm not sure how I feel about the general advice to not watch the video. As the journalists writing it have. Does it inform one of evil, or desensitise? I can see some immature kids brought up on first person shooters not understanding. Should all our voting citizens/civilians be more aware of what goes on?
This is probably worth some discussion. There is a tension between "learning lessons" and "honoring evil." And I think American media is grappling with trying to get lots of attention but realizing they are openly being played and used. They have been used for 2 decades, but I don't think a perpetrator has ever been this open about it.

The rest of what you posted is interesting. From an American perspective, one can say "always be armed" and "get out ASAP." Depending on one's disposition, one might say "get one's family out ASAP and then protect others." That is full of personal decisions. People in other countries will have to make their own choices and deal with their governments, as appropriate.
I was reminded of that youtube channel Active Self Protection when I posted- where he talks through footage, and points out lessons.
Also the footage will be required viewing in the future at various anti terrorist/swat etc... agencies across the world one would think.

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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by Stercutus » Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:25 pm

Some clarification.
During the attack at the Linwood Islamic Centre, Abdul Aziz distracted the shooter before scaring him away. Aziz screamed at the attacker, threw a credit card machine at the gunman when he went to get one gun, engaged in a cat-and-mouse chase with the shooter and threw a shotgun that the attacker had dropped after being hit with the credit card machine at the attacker’s car; the gunman drove away when the shotgun shattered his car’s window
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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by Red Tamarillo » Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:03 pm

It was good to read of the fight back.
He might have run out of his 30rnd magazines by the time of the second shooting, as I don't think they're legal in NZ- which means they'd be scarce?
And he didn't have his primary semi auto/auto by this time.
All of which might have made the fightback more possible i.e. he might have just had a pump shotgun and lever action then.

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Re: New Zealand Mosque Shootings

Post by Stercutus » Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:59 pm

Red Tamarillo wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:03 pm
It was good to read of the fight back.
I think it really shows how clearly what cowards these guys really are. Shooting unarmed children is one thing. When confronted by someone not cowed by his guns? Wilted like a daisy. Most active shooters when confronted either flee, surrender or commit suicide. This is why I say we have been doing it wrong.

Or rather the government advice is all wrong in that regard. Running away will get you shot in the back. Hiding might save you but only till found. Fighting back will result in the shooter at worst reassessing and shooting his attacker, at best running off. When confronted with determined resistance he will nearly always falter.
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