active shooter Parkland FL. High school

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Re: active shooter Parkland FL. High school

Post by Stercutus » Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:14 am

jor-el wrote:Now, my guess is Coral Springs tried to get BSO to join in a hunting cell entry team that would have been about 6 excluding deputy Peterson.

I'm not going to get into team formations for the simple fact that absent uniform, common training you'll simply never get 4-6 people to coordinate and work together, let alone 4-6 cops from different jurisdictions. As it happened, precious time was lost trying to form a team in the first place.

What might have helped improve response time is the idea of Solo Officer Response.
One of the new theories is SOR is not much different from the vast majority of work conditions most LEOs working outside the big cities already deal with; working by themselves.

https://www.policeone.com/police-produc ... e-trained/

According to the article, quite a number of smaller scale mass shootings have ended with a single officer decisively closing to a foe, then blasting said foe. Practically no active shooting incident in the CONUS in recent history was recorded to have been stopped by a team of any sort.

I'll admit the optics of that idea are Hollywood action film to a T.
The Baton Rouge shooter was stopped by a team, the Dallas shooter was cornered by one until he was taken out by a bot. It happens.

We don't have as close a relationship with our surrounding agencies as we should. However we seem to do an ok job of working together when it matters. Six officers working together is too much to ask as most are completely untrained in group tasks and lack the leadership that understands small unit dynamics and tactics. They could have split in to two three man teams. Three is manageable by most but they have to want to do it. The guy that is retirement eligible today is likely more risk adverse.
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Re: active shooter Parkland FL. High school

Post by NamelessStain » Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:55 am

jnathan wrote:Since we lost some posts due to some database work I'll just put this here for posterity.
Q wrote:Buckle up

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Re: active shooter Parkland FL. High school

Post by woodsghost » Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:41 am

NamelessStain wrote:/drops the link

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa ... t-n2453904

/runs
It is a well know fact pistol bullets are too slow and shooting someone with a rifle is like shooting them with a soda can. Such wisdom.
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Re: active shooter Parkland FL. High school

Post by NamelessStain » Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:52 am

woodsghost wrote:
NamelessStain wrote:/drops the link

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa ... t-n2453904

/runs
It is a well know fact pistol bullets are too slow and shooting someone with a rifle is like shooting them with a soda can. Such wisdom.
She's just trying to give Hank a run for his money. ROFL
jnathan wrote:Since we lost some posts due to some database work I'll just put this here for posterity.
Q wrote:Buckle up

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Re: active shooter Parkland FL. High school

Post by JeeperCreeper » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:52 am

NamelessStain wrote:
woodsghost wrote:
NamelessStain wrote:/drops the link

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa ... t-n2453904

/runs
It is a well know fact pistol bullets are too slow and shooting someone with a rifle is like shooting them with a soda can. Such wisdom.
She's just trying to give Hank a run for his money. ROFL
Can cannon?

I also like the "it's a well known fact" portion. I don't think we've ever talked about it in the firearms chat... Since its a fact and well known.

Side note: the more info that comes out about the "before" and "during" does not paint a good picture on the whole situation. A lot of people screwed up and it cost people/kids their lives. Makes a tragedy even more tragic, if that's possible.
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Re: active shooter Parkland FL. High school

Post by MacWa77ace » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:11 pm

NamelessStain wrote:/drops the link

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa ... t-n2453904

/runs
I call your link an raise you mine.


This is the absolute :shock:
I..
there ... are ... no ... words...

Expert explains to panel how to solve an issue.

drops link /

https://youtu.be/HI9tov6A2DI?t=4m18s

/ shoots self in head with pistol but nothing happens, ouch.

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Re: active shooter Parkland FL. High school

Post by NamelessStain » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:37 pm

MacWa77ace wrote:
NamelessStain wrote:/drops the link

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa ... t-n2453904

/runs
I call your link an raise you mine.


This is the absolute :shock:
I..
there ... are ... no ... words...

Expert explains to panel how to solve an issue.

drops link /

https://youtu.be/HI9tov6A2DI?t=4m18s

/ shoots self in head with pistol but nothing happens, ouch.
Unfortunately there is no patent on stupid, nor a limit on the number of people who apply for it.
jnathan wrote:Since we lost some posts due to some database work I'll just put this here for posterity.
Q wrote:Buckle up

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Re: active shooter Parkland FL. High school

Post by woodsghost » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:50 pm

MacWa77ace wrote:
NamelessStain wrote:/drops the link

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa ... t-n2453904

/runs
I call your link an raise you mine.


This is the absolute :shock:
I..
there ... are ... no ... words...

Expert explains to panel how to solve an issue.

drops link /

https://youtu.be/HI9tov6A2DI?t=4m18s

/ shoots self in head with pistol but nothing happens, ouch.
I"m preaching to the choir, but this is like putting the future of traffic laws in the hands of someone who has never driven a car.
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Re: active shooter Parkland FL. High school

Post by NamelessStain » Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:38 pm

More ROFL!

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/c ... 86304.html
Cruz went in with only 10-round magazines because larger clips would not fit in his duffel bag, Book said.

So, let me get this straight.....

His bag contained: Helmet, body armor, "assault" rifle, mask, and 10 round "clips" because there wasn't enough room for 30 round "clips"?

I smell some f*ckery afoot!
jnathan wrote:Since we lost some posts due to some database work I'll just put this here for posterity.
Q wrote:Buckle up

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Re: active shooter Parkland FL. High school

Post by woodsghost » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:06 pm

NamelessStain wrote:More ROFL!

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/c ... 86304.html
Cruz went in with only 10-round magazines because larger clips would not fit in his duffel bag, Book said.

So, let me get this straight.....

His bag contained: Helmet, body armor, "assault" rifle, mask, and 10 round "clips" because there wasn't enough room for 30 round "clips"?

I smell some f*ckery afoot!
Read the article.

1) only 10 rounders would fit.
2) his gun was cheap and low quality. It seems to have jammed.
3) if he had used high capacity clips his gun would not have jammed.


There for we need to ban 30 round magazines because they increase the reliability of ARs and we need to make them more jam prone to stop mass shooters. I'm glad we have such insightful leadership.

Hopefully someone will introduce him to a clue.
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*Don't go to stupid places with stupid people & do stupid things.
*Be courteous. Look normal. Be in bed by 10'clock.

“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” -Bilbo Baggins.

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Re: active shooter Parkland FL. High school

Post by 12_Gauge_Chimp » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:13 pm

NamelessStain wrote:More ROFL!

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/c ... 86304.html
Cruz went in with only 10-round magazines because larger clips would not fit in his duffel bag, Book said.

So, let me get this straight.....

His bag contained: Helmet, body armor, "assault" rifle, mask, and 10 round "clips" because there wasn't enough room for 30 round "clips"?

I smell some f*ckery afoot!
I'm getting that distinct smell of BS as well, NamelessStain.

Something just doesn't add up here. Case in point, the police responded 39 times to killer's house. You'd think at some point during those 39 call outs, someone would've noticed that the killer wasn't quite right in the head and would pose a danger to himself and others. At some point, someone should've done something and nipped this in the bud before it came to the deaths of 17 people.

I smell bureaucratic cover-up and someone not wanting to do their job because it'd involve actually working instead of just sitting around.

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Re: active shooter Parkland FL. High school

Post by JeeperCreeper » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:35 pm

12_Gauge_Chimp wrote:
NamelessStain wrote:More ROFL!

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/c ... 86304.html
Cruz went in with only 10-round magazines because larger clips would not fit in his duffel bag, Book said.

So, let me get this straight.....

His bag contained: Helmet, body armor, "assault" rifle, mask, and 10 round "clips" because there wasn't enough room for 30 round "clips"?

I smell some f*ckery afoot!
I'm getting that distinct smell of BS as well, NamelessStain.

Something just doesn't add up here. Case in point, the police responded 39 times to killer's house. You'd think at some point during those 39 call outs, someone would've noticed that the killer wasn't quite right in the head and would pose a danger to himself and others. At some point, someone should've done something and nipped this in the bud before it came to the deaths of 17 people.

I smell bureaucratic cover-up and someone not wanting to do their job because it'd involve actually working instead of just sitting around.
"We just want to have an adult conversation"
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Re: active shooter Parkland FL. High school

Post by Stercutus » Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:29 am

12_Gauge_Chimp wrote:
NamelessStain wrote:More ROFL!

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/c ... 86304.html
Cruz went in with only 10-round magazines because larger clips would not fit in his duffel bag, Book said.

So, let me get this straight.....

His bag contained: Helmet, body armor, "assault" rifle, mask, and 10 round "clips" because there wasn't enough room for 30 round "clips"?

I smell some f*ckery afoot!
I'm getting that distinct smell of BS as well, NamelessStain.

Something just doesn't add up here. Case in point, the police responded 39 times to killer's house. You'd think at some point during those 39 call outs, someone would've noticed that the killer wasn't quite right in the head and would pose a danger to himself and others. At some point, someone should've done something and nipped this in the bud before it came to the deaths of 17 people.

I smell bureaucratic cover-up and someone not wanting to do their job because it'd involve actually working instead of just sitting around.
He was referred to a mental health professional social worker who said that he was not a threat to himself or others. Ooops.

You would be astounded by the number of people I deal with on a regular basis who are in the same way. For instance I would think that someone that hallucinates that they are being chased while driving their SUV and then crashes in to a number of fixed and unfixed objects while trying to "get away" would be a threat to public safety, themselves and others, but nah according to the experts, apparently I was wrong about that.

That is just one example I could go on for days.

Like I said before:

MENTAL HEALTH CARE IN THE ENTIRE UNITED STATES IS HORRIBLE
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be rememberèd—
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother

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Re: active shooter Parkland FL. High school

Post by MacWa77ace » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:22 am

NamelessStain wrote:More ROFL!

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/c ... 86304.html
Cruz went in with only 10-round magazines because larger clips would not fit in his duffel bag, Book said.

So, let me get this straight.....

His bag contained: Helmet, body armor, "assault" rifle, mask, and 10 round "clips" because there wasn't enough room for 30 round "clips"?

I smell some f*ckery afoot!


WILL ALL THE CLUELESS EXPERTS PLEASE FORM A LINE TO MAKE A STATEMENT! YOU'LL ALL GET A TURN.
first clueless expert wrote:Michael Limatola, a weapons expert and consultant based in New Jersey, said jamming is a weakness of rifles like the one Cruz used. They “are prone to this type of problem if not cleaned thoroughly,” he said.
Ooohhhh, :idea: he's a card carrying New Jersey weapons expert, must be true. FWIW: To get certified as a NJ weapons expert an individual has to complete 2 tasks. Look at a gun with out fainting, and correctly identify the bangy end in three tries. To maintain the certification an individual must then pay an annual tax of $1500. A union dues of $500 / month. Mandatory quarterly donations to the regional proletariat office TBD by region. Annual donations to the State, County, and Local law enforcement agencies. State subsidies and credits are available for those in the top 1% income bracket. And then recertify every 5 years by getting an eye test better than 20/600, a BMI test not to exceed 100% over normal, and a standard IQ test not to exceed 80. And finally provide an affidavit that you have not touched a firearm in the last 5 years. I'm not going to go into how a corporation or legal entity goes about getting the certification and maintaining it, [ZS only allows 60,000 characters per post.] but there is lubricant involved.

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Re: active shooter Parkland FL. High school

Post by LowKey » Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:50 pm

Stercutus wrote:
Like I said before:

MENTAL HEALTH CARE IN THE ENTIRE UNITED STATES IS HORRIBLE
Agreed.

I can comprehend why the pendulum (regarding involuntary committals) swung so far to the "almost never" side, due to the combination of conditions of the old public psych institutions and the horrifying potential for someone NOT a danger being stripped of their rights*, but it has indeed gone farther than is good.


Earlier you referred to the cost per inmate of correctional facilities as likely being comparable with that of a psych hospital. I suspect that the cost per would be substantially higher due to expense of treating the patients rather than simply incarcerating them, but perhaps even with a higher cost it's something that should be considered seriously.
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Re: active shooter Parkland FL. High school

Post by flybynight » Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:00 pm

Earlier you referred to the cost per inmate of correctional facilities as likely being comparable with that of a psych hospital. I suspect that the cost per would be substantially higher due to expense of treating the patients rather than simply incarcerating them, but perhaps even with a higher cost it's something that should be considered seriously.
Yes , of course. But not until after we have effective peop... umm I mean gun control laws in place.
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Re: active shooter Parkland FL. High school

Post by LowKey » Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:16 pm

My concern regarding going back to the higher level of involuntary committals we had in the first half of the 20th century isn't the expense, it's the potential for abuse. If the same crowd that pushes for gun control gained control or undue influence over the process people who were not truly a danger to themselves and others could quite possibly end up being committed to get them out of the way, in similar fashion to the old USSR's tactic of committing dissidents to psychiatric facilities.
IIRC something similar was done here in the US during WW2, some persons who had committed no crime but who were considered a security risk were involuntarily admitted to psychiatric care simply to keep them isolated and incommunicado.

It's not tin foil hat level of concern, but I do think it's a risk to keep in mind.
“Political tags – such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth – are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.” Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: active shooter Parkland FL. High school

Post by MPMalloy » Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:32 pm

Yup. I still have my copy of ST 31-205. :D

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Re: active shooter Parkland FL. High school

Post by Stercutus » Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:35 pm

flybynight wrote:
Earlier you referred to the cost per inmate of correctional facilities as likely being comparable with that of a psych hospital. I suspect that the cost per would be substantially higher due to expense of treating the patients rather than simply incarcerating them, but perhaps even with a higher cost it's something that should be considered seriously.
Yes , of course. But not until after we have effective peop... umm I mean gun control laws in place.

Ok, agreed costs will be higher. But they don't have to be. There are so many bad reasons why medical treatment in the US is the most costliest in the world. I guess we have painted ourselves in to a corner.
From this day to the ending of the world,
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
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Re: active shooter Parkland FL. High school

Post by LowKey » Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:06 pm

Stercutus wrote:
flybynight wrote:
Earlier you referred to the cost per inmate of correctional facilities as likely being comparable with that of a psych hospital. I suspect that the cost per would be substantially higher due to expense of treating the patients rather than simply incarcerating them, but perhaps even with a higher cost it's something that should be considered seriously.
Yes , of course. But not until after we have effective peop... umm I mean gun control laws in place.

Ok, agreed costs will be higher. But they don't have to be. There are so many bad reasons why medical treatment in the US is the most costliest in the world. I guess we have painted ourselves in to a corner.
That's what often happens when people repeatedly choose cheap short term band-aids over a bigger initial investment into long term solutions.

Forgetting for the moment the possibility of abuse, misuse, and mission creep of a public mental health agency that would oversea this sort of thing, I could see a system set up along the lines of the federal prison system, with different facilities based on the type of mental illness and the associated risks, with the more dangerous kept in facilities far, far away from population centers.

On a side note-
IIRC often one of the problems that occurs with persons who have mental illness is that they often stop taking their meds when they're discharged. On meds they're fine, but off them they become dangerous. Perhaps development of psychiatric medication implants, similar to those used for birth control and other medications, should be developed and made mandatory as a condition of release for such patients. While not impossible fr them to do so, cutting the implant out on their own would be more difficult than simply choosing to not swallow a pill, not to mention doing so <cutting out the implant> would provide clear evidence that the person was indeed still a danger to themselves.
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Re: active shooter Parkland FL. High school

Post by MPMalloy » Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:30 pm

These decisions should be made by people who have a traditional, classical education of mental illness. Very few of the mentally ill are a danger to themselves or others.

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Re: active shooter Parkland FL. High school

Post by LowKey » Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:15 pm

MPMalloy wrote:These decisions should be made by people who have a traditional, classical education of mental illness. Very few of the mentally ill are a danger to themselves or others.
I wasn't meaning to imply that the majority were.
Simply that there are those who are, and that they need to be treated and cared for not ignored until they harm someone.
Last edited by LowKey on Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Political tags – such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth – are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.” Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: active shooter Parkland FL. High school

Post by MPMalloy » Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:22 pm

LowKey wrote:Simply that here are those who are, and that they need to be treated and cared for not ignored until they harm someone.
I fully agree.

However, when things like involuntary commitment & being forcibly medicated need to be done, they need to be done.

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Re: active shooter Parkland FL. High school

Post by LowKey » Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:32 pm

MPMalloy wrote:
LowKey wrote:Simply that here are those who are, and that they need to be treated and cared for not ignored until they harm someone.
I fully agree.

However, when things like involuntary commitment & being forcibly medicated need to be done, they need to be done.
Exactly.
“Political tags – such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth – are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.” Robert A. Heinlein

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