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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:03 pm 
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The public isn't willing to go back to the pre- 1950's-1960's pubic mental health hospitals because of the conditions in which the patients lived, and they're not willing to fund pubic mental health care facilities providing care to current standards because of the cost.

TANSTAASFL.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:03 am 
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LowKey wrote:
The public isn't willing to go back to the pre- 1950's-1960's pubic mental health hospitals because of the conditions in which the patients lived, and they're not willing to fund pubic mental health care facilities providing care to current standards because of the cost.

TANSTAASFL.


I noted as much already. However this is long past due as a public safety issue. They are still building prisons and I think the per patient cost is comparable.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:16 am 
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CG wrote:
JayceSlayn wrote:
aikorob wrote:
from Market-ticker.org:
Do any of you medical guys think he has a valid point?

I am only tangentially a medical person, and I know we have more qualified people amongst our ZS brethren, but most SSRIs do have black box warnings indicating the potential increase of depression and suicidal ideation in younger age groups. (E.g. https://reference.medscape.com/drug/zoloft-sertraline-342962#5) Given the significant use of SSRIs within that age group still, I'm sure there is a pretty good meta-analysis somewhere showing that their potential beneficial use is on-whole acceptable (outweighing the risk of a small percentage of serious side-effects), provided that the advised best practices are followed, which includes monitoring and adjustment or termination of treatment. There are some that are not FDA approved for use in pediatric patients as well (E.g. https://reference.medscape.com/drug/celexa-citalopram-342958#5).

I think medical professionals are still the most qualified to make these case-by-case decisions on the usage of these drugs for their patients, but I understand that they are fallible humans as well. Other than letting the appropriate drug regulation agencies continue to monitor their use and provide policy guidelines to physicians, I don't think there is a clear case to call for their outright ban in the younger population.


Again, that's only my not-a-professional opinion though.


I think they need to figure out what is going on with them. The lists that I have seen show that the vast majority of those who have carried out a mass shooting since Columbine have been on or coming off SSRIs or other psych meds. The few who weren't seem to be either religiously motivated or should have been getting psychiatric treatment for paranoia, bipolar, etc.

I don't think the situation is going to improve until the U.S. makes mental health a real priority and starts using non-pharmaceutical interventions first.



You would assume that someone who shoots up a school was not really right in the head though.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:24 pm 
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Just got the new issue of Backwoodsman the other day and it coincidently has a article about active shooters. RUN, HIDE, FIGHT. I'm looking at the article and thinking T he video I saw of the shooting in progress showed the students cowering on the floor and by or behind desks. At that point they were fish in the barrel and they should have fought because any survival was just luck. Teach your family members this. Drill it into their heads. It's not Machoism or being the tough guy/girl ,its just survival. Still may not survive but at least you will go out fighting on two feet like humans rather than slaughtered like animals. Nothings going to change. The mentally ill are not going to get help. The wrong people will still get guns. The schools will still not toughen their security. And in a few weeks this will repeat again. Even now that fickle bitch fate has put up a new target and is ready to throw the dart

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:53 pm 
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drop bear wrote:
CG wrote:
JayceSlayn wrote:
aikorob wrote:
from Market-ticker.org:
Do any of you medical guys think he has a valid point?

I am only tangentially a medical person, and I know we have more qualified people amongst our ZS brethren, but most SSRIs do have black box warnings indicating the potential increase of depression and suicidal ideation in younger age groups. (E.g. https://reference.medscape.com/drug/zoloft-sertraline-342962#5) Given the significant use of SSRIs within that age group still, I'm sure there is a pretty good meta-analysis somewhere showing that their potential beneficial use is on-whole acceptable (outweighing the risk of a small percentage of serious side-effects), provided that the advised best practices are followed, which includes monitoring and adjustment or termination of treatment. There are some that are not FDA approved for use in pediatric patients as well (E.g. https://reference.medscape.com/drug/celexa-citalopram-342958#5).

I think medical professionals are still the most qualified to make these case-by-case decisions on the usage of these drugs for their patients, but I understand that they are fallible humans as well. Other than letting the appropriate drug regulation agencies continue to monitor their use and provide policy guidelines to physicians, I don't think there is a clear case to call for their outright ban in the younger population.


Again, that's only my not-a-professional opinion though.


I think they need to figure out what is going on with them. The lists that I have seen show that the vast majority of those who have carried out a mass shooting since Columbine have been on or coming off SSRIs or other psych meds. The few who weren't seem to be either religiously motivated or should have been getting psychiatric treatment for paranoia, bipolar, etc.

I don't think the situation is going to improve until the U.S. makes mental health a real priority and starts using non-pharmaceutical interventions first.



You would assume that someone who shoots up a school was not really right in the head though.


Ummmm...yes? I think other than those religiously motivated shooters, the rest have been nuts. And one might question the mental stability of religiously motivated shooters too (though one might argue it is politically motivated).

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:28 pm 
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JayceSlayn wrote:
aikorob wrote:
from Market-ticker.org:
Do any of you medical guys think he has a valid point?

I am only tangentially a medical person, and I know we have more qualified people amongst our ZS brethren, but most SSRIs do have black box warnings indicating the potential increase of depression and suicidal ideation in younger age groups. (E.g. https://reference.medscape.com/drug/zoloft-sertraline-342962#5) Given the significant use of SSRIs within that age group still, I'm sure there is a pretty good meta-analysis somewhere showing that their potential beneficial use is on-whole acceptable (outweighing the risk of a small percentage of serious side-effects), provided that the advised best practices are followed, which includes monitoring and adjustment or termination of treatment. There are some that are not FDA approved for use in pediatric patients as well (E.g. https://reference.medscape.com/drug/celexa-citalopram-342958#5).

I think medical professionals are still the most qualified to make these case-by-case decisions on the usage of these drugs for their patients, but I understand that they are fallible humans as well. Other than letting the appropriate drug regulation agencies continue to monitor their use and provide policy guidelines to physicians, I don't think there is a clear case to call for their outright ban in the younger population.

Again, that's only my not-a-professional opinion though.


I can't really say either. I liken it more to aviation safety than drug safety though. If I die from an immediate bad reaction to a drug that is one thing, if my bad reaction to a drug kills 34 people a month after I start a course of treatment that is another thing entirely. Both present a threat to public safety but one is lot more catastrophic than the other.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:04 pm 
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Hey everyone. I'm jumping into the middle of this thread. Thank you for your understanding...

In reading thru the news, the political war-drum is having the snot beat out of it.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:06 pm 
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MPMalloy wrote:
Hey everyone. I'm jumping into the middle of this thread. Thank you for your understanding...

In reading thru the news, the political war-drum is having the snot beat out of it.

After Sandy Hook, the mods here were handing out official warnings and putting people in time-out like it was going out of style, for discussing potential new regulations. Gun chat got locked for a week or two.....so tread lightly.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:13 pm 
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RickOShea wrote:
MPMalloy wrote:
Hey everyone. I'm jumping into the middle of this thread. Thank you for your understanding...

In reading thru the news, the political war-drum is having the snot beat out of it.

After Sandy Hook, the mods here were handing out official warnings and putting people in time-out like it was going out of style, for discussing potential new regulations. Gun chat got locked for a week or two.....so tread lightly.
Understood. No further comment.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:27 pm 
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https://nypost.com/2018/02/24/these-her ... -shooting/

For Gun Control to be effective or even have any meaning, it would have to be enforced by police officers.

What happens if the police officers do NOTHING? Of the supposedly 39 prior police visitations to the shooter at both home and at the school, guess who did at least one of them? THE SRO FIRST ON THE SCENE WHO REFUSED TO ENGAGE HIM. Per his boss Sheriff Scott Israel, both 911 operator tapes and surveillance video indicated the SRO Scot Peterson observed the killer firing on the students well enough to ID the perp as well as the rifle in question. Of course, the conventional wisdom goes that if he had an unobstructed view of the perp, why did he not engage the perp?
I sure wish The response was recorded so I could hear it, but the answer given was sufficient grounds for immediate suspension. Bad enough for Scot Peterson to put in his papers and retire upon suspension.
I cannot wait to hear the excuse the OTHER THREE COWARD COUNTY SHERIFF DEPUTIES had for also REFUSING TO ENGAGE A MASS KILLER, preferring to check the tire pressure of their cars instead of SAVING CHILDREN'S LIVES.

THREE ACTUAL MEN WITH BALLS from Coral Springs and Sunrise ended up having to clear the building by themselves after engaging the assembled four CCSO deputies to hold each other's hands and participate in rescuing children IN THEIR JURISDICTION. And STILL THEY REFUSED TO DO THEIR JOB WITH HELP. BTW they did get suspensions together, but retirements weren't an option.

If I ever give up my guns, will it be to SPINELESS WEAK COWARDS like these?

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:39 pm 
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jor-el wrote:
https://nypost.com/2018/02/24/these-heroic-cops-ran-toward-florida-school-shooting/

For Gun Control to be effective or even have any meaning, it would have to be enforced by police officers.

What happens if the police officers do NOTHING? Of the supposedly 39 prior police visitations to the shooter at both home and at the school, guess who did at least one of them? THE SRO FIRST ON THE SCENE WHO REFUSED TO ENGAGE HIM. Per his boss Sheriff Scott Israel, both 911 operator tapes and surveillance video indicated the SRO Scot Peterson observed the killer firing on the students well enough to ID the perp as well as the rifle in question. Of course, the conventional wisdom goes that if he had an unobstructed view of the perp, why did he not engage the perp?
I sure wish The response was recorded so I could hear it, but the answer given was sufficient grounds for immediate suspension. Bad enough for Scot Peterson to put in his papers and retire upon suspension.
I cannot wait to hear the excuse the OTHER THREE COWARD COUNTY SHERIFF DEPUTIES had for also REFUSING TO ENGAGE A MASS KILLER, preferring to check the tire pressure of their cars instead of SAVING CHILDREN'S LIVES.

THREE ACTUAL MEN WITH BALLS from Coral Springs and Sunrise ended up having to clear the building by themselves after engaging the assembled four CCSO deputies to hold each other's hands and participate in rescuing children IN THEIR JURISDICTION. And STILL THEY REFUSED TO DO THEIR JOB WITH HELP. BTW they did get suspensions together, but retirements weren't an option.

If I ever give up my guns, will it be to SPINELESS WEAK COWARDS like these?
:rofl: :clap: :rofl: :clap: :rofl:

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:34 pm 
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I cannot wait to hear the excuse the OTHER THREE COWARD COUNTY SHERIFF DEPUTIES had for also REFUSING TO ENGAGE A MASS KILLER, preferring to check the tire pressure of their cars instead of SAVING CHILDREN'S LIVES.

THREE ACTUAL MEN WITH BALLS from Coral Springs and Sunrise ended up having to clear the building by themselves after engaging the assembled four CCSO deputies to hold each other's hands and participate in rescuing children IN THEIR JURISDICTION. And STILL THEY REFUSED TO DO THEIR JOB WITH HELP. BTW they did get suspensions together, but retirements weren't an option.

If I ever give up my guns, will it be to SPINELESS WEAK COWARDS like these?



Peterson could almost make the excuse that training said to wait for one other person (if he had such training). I would disagree with him given the urgency of the situation but he could at least make that argument. With four people on the scene we have now entered the realm of systemic failure. The first rule of law enforcement is put at odds with mass shooting events. Still in the overwhelming majority of events in the last ten years the police responded properly. Here this was not the case.

If one or even two deputies had responded improperly that would be one thing; but four? That is a systemic leadership failure. Doesn't matter whether the issue is training, education, organizational climate or poor leadership it is a system wide failure. I am not normally one to call for heads in the case of a single event failure. In this case I would think it vital. The sheriff needs to resign and the county board of supervisors needs to appoint an interim sheriff from outside the agency. Their department needs a new leader who can come in and fix things. Politicians are not always the best people to do this.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:45 pm 
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What does it take to revoke an officers certification? What about an Agency's certification?

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:20 pm 
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MPMalloy wrote:
What does it take to revoke an officers certification? What about an Agency's certification?


That varies highly depending upon the state and often the agency. In my state they do not "revoke certification". However a person can be fired and no longer eligible to serve as a law enforcement officer for not meeting the standards. Being fired does not mean they are ineligible to work as a LEO. Cowardice is a firing offense in every agency I have ever heard of however it does not make a person ineligible to serve as a LEO. You might wonder if an agency would hire someone that has been fired for cowardice. The answer is that some would. Some agencies only pay $10 an hour and they take whoever they can get.



In Florida there is a state discipline board:

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/ind ... /0112.html

Agency certification is a whole other animal.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:56 pm 
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We may have redefined a certain noun that rhymes with the well-known peewee hockey term and not-at-all-a-made-up word: 'flusterpuck'.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:01 pm 
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One of the other things that sticks out at me is that the agency had 18 calls to "assist with parenting" in addition to a slew of other calls on the shooter. The sheriff seemed to think that was no big deal. I am thinking it was a pretty big deal and that someone should have contacted DHR or whoever fulfills that function in Florida. Clearly the woman was in over her head and needed help.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:50 pm 
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Google the Coward County Sheriff's full name. Born in NYC from a prominent NYPD detective but started his LEO career in FL?
A... colorful career in several LEO agencies.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:03 pm 
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As a contrast Senior Airman Andy Brown (an MP at the time) shows us what one person who trains and plans to respond can do. One can argue that Brown made a luck shot but since it was his fourth round, I think the law of probabilities played a much great role than good luck.

https://www.inlander.com/spokane/not-on ... id=2317051

There was not just one "failure" but four "failures".

Call it what you want but Senior Airman Brown as well Stephen Willeford and Johnnie Langendorff (in Suntherland Springs,TX) show what is possible if there is a will to do so.

Having not worn the same shoes as others posting here, I am not comfortable calling someone a coward. That said I have no problem calling the response an abject failure which requires at a minimum the review all in the chain of command and the swift application of "remedial" action. I would be accepting any offered resignations and seriously consider asking for more than the one offered by the deputy.


BTW the ex-deputy saw "douche bag" get out of a "goldish" car with a black duffle bag, recognized him instantly and radioed a co-worker to the effect of "BOLO "douche bag" with a black duffle bag and back pack was on the campus". He did not go over to "douche bag" and ask why he was present...nothing until the shooting started when he radioed a "code red" and sought cover.

I will let you draw your own conclusion

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:56 pm 
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Having not worn the same shoes as others posting here, I am not comfortable calling someone a coward.



I haven't crouched it in those explicit terms but it is definitely where I am heading. It is like I used to tell my soldiers: It isn't everyone that runs towards the sound of the guns. If you can't do it you need to find something else to do. The number of times I have seen people properly comport themselves properly under fire is dramatically higher than not (not counting stupid shit like exposing themselves unnecessarily or shooting at empty space for no reason).



Peterson is trying to say now that he thought the shooting was taking place outside. Aside from being bullshit it still doesn't explain his actions/ inaction. If he told arriving deputies that though it could have confused everyone. Not making excuses here for inaction, more like for confusion.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:13 pm 
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Stercutus wrote:
I haven't crouched it in those explicit terms but it is definitely where I am heading. It is like I used to tell my soldiers: It isn't everyone that runs towards the sound of the guns. If you can't do it you need to find something else to do.


I am sure you and Jor-el have "been there, done that and have the t-shirts to prove it".
I have not, hence my comment. IMO you two (& anyone else with said T-shirt) have the right to call it like you see it.

In the meantime I am going to call it only an abject and indefensible failure with horrible consequences.

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Last edited by raptor on Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:03 pm 
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https://nypost.com/2018/02/26/disgraced ... -shooting/

His claim is department policy is ... cover? ASSess? Then waht? 4 minutes of assessing?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/26/fl ... ponse.html

I get the feeling BSO's active shooter policy parallels NYPD's pre-Newtown procedure of Isolate and Contain, wait for SWAT/ESU to do the entry. Not such a big surprise given the Sheriff's lineage but behind the times of modern active shooter policy of pick-up entry teams of whatever shows up first, immediate entry, then close to contact.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:16 pm 
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The ex-deputy's claim of doing nothing wrong is at odds with his suspension and resignation.

It is almost as difficult to believe as his boss' many recent claims of his own great leadership ability in this matter.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:58 pm 
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raptor wrote:

It is almost as difficult to believe as his boss' many recent claims of his own great leadership ability in this matter.


That was especially ripe for ridicule.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:00 am 
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Now, my guess is Coral Springs tried to get BSO to join in a hunting cell entry team that would have been about 6 excluding deputy Peterson.

I'm not going to get into team formations for the simple fact that absent uniform, common training you'll simply never get 4-6 people to coordinate and work together, let alone 4-6 cops from different jurisdictions. As it happened, precious time was lost trying to form a team in the first place.

What might have helped improve response time is the idea of Solo Officer Response.
One of the new theories is SOR is not much different from the vast majority of work conditions most LEOs working outside the big cities already deal with; working by themselves.

https://www.policeone.com/police-produc ... e-trained/

According to the article, quite a number of smaller scale mass shootings have ended with a single officer decisively closing to a foe, then blasting said foe. Practically no active shooting incident in the CONUS in recent history was recorded to have been stopped by a team of any sort.

I'll admit the optics of that idea are Hollywood action film to a T.

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