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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:41 pm 
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M193 defeats body armor better then M855.... M855 isn't traveling as fast and doesn't have the velocity to punch through plate armor. From what I understand it was designed to take out Russian steel helmets. The only thing I think M855 beats over M193 is going through wood and such. I agree with Ronny on this one.

As for loaded mags, I have 2 mag cans filled with loaded mags just for such an instance as this. The city I live is having a massive influx of people being pushed out of Seattle, it's one of the last cheap rent/housing in the King County area. As such the crime rate has slowly been going up, and there have been a few shootings in the area. So I keep a about 12 mags loaded ready for use. It seems silly to have a short stacked mag that you grab in a situation like this.

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:22 pm 
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I suppose the best way to be sure would be to test this out.
Sadly, I no longer have access to a test bed area that would allow testing of plates and armor
with ammo and firearms not department authorized.

Box Of Truth did something similar using IIIA armor though the test 7.62x39 ammo was unidentified. Looks to be a brownish-greenish clear lacquer and FMJ.
https://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o- ... iia-armor/

I recently got a deal locally on Hornady steel case SST which is widely rumored to be identical in performance to Zombie-Max with the additional benefit of being in current production, which 7.62x39 Z Max is not.
SST Gel


Z Max Gel

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:55 pm 
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7.62x39 will punch through IIIA armor all day long. Does not matter if HP, AP, SP, FMJ, or what. It does not need to be steel core.

The area where steel core starts to possibly be useful is in punching through Lvl III plates. As RonnyRonnin said above, they might get through the UHWPE stuff better. Maybe? I don't know of any tests so it is pure speculation and only based on the fact that M855 gets through but M193 does not.

But mild steel core does not get through steel or ceramic any better than lead core. Bi-metal rounds don't do any better job either. As excited as the ATF gets about steel core ammo it is only *hardened* steel that matters. Well, velocity matters a lot, and that is why some new copper pistol rounds can punch through IIIA vests because it reaches close to (over?) 2000 fps. And that is why M193 gets through many steel plates that M855 fails to penetrate, despite the hardened steel penetrator in the tip of the M855 round.

And ceramic does a good job stopping all the 7.62x39 and 5.56x45. Except I don't know what AP would do. I've never seen tests of actual AP in those calibers.

SST is terrific by all accounts I've ever read. I should probably switch my hunting ammo. Currently I use SP, and I'm thinking about switching from 123 gr to 154 gr based on what it does to deer. But for your purposes SST would do swimmingly. For my purposes I need to get some and test it. I'm sure others have posted post-mortem tests on game animals. The stuff I've read says hunters like it.

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:36 pm 
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The M193 vs M855 debate doesn't apply here as much as a steel core/FMJ vs controlled expansion bullet.

Realize that the Texas church shooting's response by Willeford is something of a fluke; a mass shooting scenario occurring within walking distance from your home and allowing you to cherry pick your response from your Burt Gummer Memorial Rec Room.


In 1985 I was offered an HK91 for 6 large before taxes from a LGS in Manhattan. How times have changed.

I suppose I'll be switching ammo out tonite.

I'd be interested in 154 grain SP results.

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:49 pm 
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jor-el wrote:
The M193 vs M855 debate doesn't apply here as much as a steel core/FMJ vs controlled expansion bullet.

Realize that the Texas church shooting's response by Willeford is something of a fluke; a mass shooting scenario occurring within walking distance from your home and allowing you to cherry pick your response from your Burt Gummer Memorial Rec Room.


In 1985 I was offered an HK91 for 6 large before taxes from a LGS in Manhattan. How times have changed.

I suppose I'll be switching ammo out tonite.

I'd be interested in 154 grain SP results.


AHHH Bert Gummers rec room. Ever since I saw that scene, had to have a elephant gun in the rec room. Just in case I'm attacked by elephants ( or giant pre Cambrian era underground monsters )

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:17 pm 
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I just bought a Browning BPS 10 gauge last week off Arfcom. Does anyone have experience in firing Federal 1 3/4 ounce slugs? Don't know if Old Painless or anyone tried this, but would III or IV plates backed with IIIA soft armor still protect you from a 4 or 2 gauge slug hit given the slug is still running at 1150 fps or so? Instead of trying to drill through the armor with speed or hard materials, overwhelm it with a lot of brute force momentum?

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:06 pm 
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jor-el wrote:
I just bought a Browning BPS 10 gauge last week off Arfcom. Does anyone have experience in firing Federal 1 3/4 ounce slugs? Don't know if Old Painless or anyone tried this, but would III or IV plates backed with IIIA soft armor still protect you from a 4 or 2 gauge slug hit given the slug is still running at 1150 fps or so? Instead of trying to drill through the armor with speed or hard materials, overwhelm it with a lot of brute force momentum?


I dunno about a 2 or 4 gauge "cannon", but I watched some tests with 12 gauge slugs on ballistic glass and slugs (including brenneke stuff) was garbage against anything hard. Might not translate to body armor, but I think even 45 ACP penetrated more than the slugs in the glass.

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:20 pm 
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Re: Browning BPS: I can't say definitively. But the thought I've heard is physics says for every action there is an opposite/equal reaction. So while you just threw a slug out yonder, you actually absorbed an equal amount of energy into your shoulder. Well, actually into your gun, your shoulder, the rubber of the recoil pad, and depending on stance you may have absorbed some recoil into
the rest of your body too. So with a steel plate you take an impact but the impact is spread over the surface of the plate and the weight of the plate has an effect too. If you put IIIA armor behind the plate the impact becomes even more comfortable. "Comfort" being a relative term. IIIA panels can stop a slug but may rearrange your insides while doing so. Steel or ceramic with IIIA behind it will be the best bet against anything.

To say all this a bit differently: people are not quite sure what will happen if you shoot someone in hard plates with a slug of that size. If shooting soft armor you might kill them. If shooting hard plates you will certainly get their attention. Past that there is a lot of speculation with the basic advice that shooting someone in armor with a slug will probably not be that awesome. Painful, but not awesome.

154 gr SP: I'm excited to try it too, but I have to wait till next year. Having a baby real soon so I skipped deer season. But 123 gr SP does a real nice job on deer. I think though that I want more penetration and a 154gr would do it. I want through and through, and I've got that... but with a few 45 degree turns first which make for wildly unpredictable exit points and a 123gr does not always exit a 100-150lb deer. Especially if you hit the shoulder blade (but that was a MASSIVE and lethal wound). So I'm pretty happy with 123gr SP but I just think a 154gr will be better.

Oh, if considering using a SP in an AK to hunt, folks will want to only take closer shots (IMO 100 y/m). The AK is hard on lead tips so they get gouged and misshapen as they are stripped from the mag and chambered. This has a harsh effect on accuracy. Those SSTs look rather enticing and I think will survive being stripped from the mag much better.

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:28 pm 
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jor-el wrote:
I just bought a Browning BPS 10 gauge last week off Arfcom. Does anyone have experience in firing Federal 1 3/4 ounce slugs? Don't know if Old Painless or anyone tried this, but would III or IV plates backed with IIIA soft armor still protect you from a 4 or 2 gauge slug hit given the slug is still running at 1150 fps or so? Instead of trying to drill through the armor with speed or hard materials, overwhelm it with a lot of brute force momentum?


I am not a expert on ballistics but I suspect that a .300 win magnum, .338 win mag or for that matter a .375 H&H firing a dangerous game solid would work a lot better than a shotgun slug of any bore on body armor.

You can get a Browning BAR in .300 win mag and .300 WSW. Older versions can still be had in .338 magnum.

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:40 pm 
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4 gauge ?
Image

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:45 pm 
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flybynight wrote:
4 gauge ?
Image

Image

That thing would kill me. Whichever end I was on. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:55 pm 
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I don't have any of the data in front of me, but last time I went down the rabbit hole slugs are pretty useless against armor. While total energy might be higher (and might do more do the target behind the armor) penetration is not a brute force game but about speed, surface area and pressure. A small fast bullet is going to do better against armor then a large slow one every day of the week.

While it is of course pure speculation I have a hard time assuming a slug would kill if it didn't penetrate. While soft armor doesn't spread the force out anywhere near as well as hard armor, the surface area of the impact is still going to be considerably larger then that of the bullet. Broken ribs? Probably; out of the fight? I would think so; Dead? they might wish it but I doubt it.

Sabot slugs are the only grey area I know of, I'm am fairly unsure of what they do to soft armor, but I'd still bet good money they don't do much against all but the crappiest of hard armor.


While far from scientific, I formed much of my armor knowledge from youtube tests. While certainly not good enough for NIJ, and there are a lot of variables to consider, at the end of the day "did it go through?" means a lot. For instance I sold off my Gulf War era flak vest as videos showed that 9mm went through at least 50% of the time (why bother?) and that ceramics are far tougher and more multi-hit capable then they are rated for. The M193 vs. M855 testing done by several folks was also super informative, as many know m193 will defeat some cheap steal plates, and M855 will defeat some level III plastic plates. The later seems to be super unlikely to be encountered in the wild, and since the former seems to perform much better in tissue I'd call it the natural choice between the two.
Helmet cam footage and testimony from troops that have caught rounds in the plates are also useful data points, sometimes they are still in the fight, sometimes not; from what I've seen they may not be terribly mobile afterwards but they are nearly always returning fire.

My takeaway from my last info binge was

1) All rifles eat all soft armor for breakfast.
2) Most hard plates will stop Most rifle bullets
3) Getting rifle bullets that will defeat hard armor reliably is expensive, possibly illegal, and they typically underperforms in tissue.

At the advice of several people that know better then me, it is much simpler to know when to adjust your aim (hips and head) then to stock multiple ammo types, keep mags segregated, decide when to use which etc. Find the ammo that will most ruin someones day and figure out the best place to deliver it in the moment.


It is worth noting that steel armor is becoming INCREDIBlY widespread, and we should probably assume it will start showing up in shootings at some point (I'm shocked it hasn't already), and also that most steel now will in fact stop M855 so training to deal with armored foes needs to be on people's radar that are so inclined. Other then very large bolt actions or a few exotic autoloaders I don't think there is a real hardware solution to dealing with armor, and baring new technology I have stopped looking for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:32 pm 
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There is a video floating out there showing 12GA slugs impacting level III armor until the plate falls apart. It takes around 50 rounds, so I am thinking you would be better off with some #1 shot, a modified choke and hope for multiple hits or for the wealthy there are armor piercing slugs that work at about $8/rd.

I have learned that armor tends to be small and that the human body is big. The places that armor protects short of a full armor suit, a military vest or a custom made vest is going to amount to about 20-33% of the torso of the average human male. Armor does protect the most valuable parts, the parts that are most likely to lead to quick incapacitation. My heavy work armor covers a little bit more than that but the plates are massive and not the normal Level III plates you see for sale everywhere. Most of the armor sold these days also does not come with side plates, deltoid protectors, groin protectors, neck protectors and various other plates and pads making for a number of weak points.

I think we can make an assumption these days that anyone sporting a tactical vest may have armor inside. Someone mentioned eariler shooting for the hip. With a CFR round this is probably going to be your best bet for quick incapacitatation, although I would at least try for the head/ neck first.

Most people will have a pistol though. At range, with a pistol, trying to break heavy bone becomes a more dicey proposition. The farther away the target the less likely this becomes. The wife's philosophy on concealed carry has always been to "shoot them in the dick". She believes (and probably rightly so) that anyone shot in the dick will suddenly have much more pressing concerns than whatever they wanted from her. It is quite likely that such a target on a crazed mass shooter or terrorist will be very small, much smaller than average and therefore hard to hit, but any hit in that area will likely be very, very painful.

There have not been enough studies done on this to determine how well it works; but I am going to suggest that pistol shooters aim for the groin.

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:11 am 
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Back in the 80s I remember trying a Polytech side folder with the available Hansen PSP from Yugoslavia.
I also remember the action squashing the tips against the back of the barrel a lot. Believe the action points the bullet tip just barely into the chamber, depending on the FMJ pofile and conical case shape to finish feeding the cartridge into the chamber.

Hence the Mini-30. That action seems better at feeding exposed lead SP by aiming the bullet more to the center of the chamber mouth, so the point gets handled less. Believe the Hornady -Max bullets polymer tip gives the bullet a more FMJ profile for feeding purposes as well as improving ballistics.

Still have some of that Hansen PSP on SKS strips for my father's Arsenal 26, a survivor of NYC's Assault Weapons ban. It's not really pointed, more rounded, kind of like the blunt PPU SP with more of a pointed ogive.

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:16 am 
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I would (all else equal) pick a Mini-30 over a pistol or a shotgun for an active shooting situation. It would be nice to have AP rounds for it, if legally available.

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:28 pm 
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Now, there were a few more points made from Steve Willeford's statement. It was his daughter that first warned him of shots. As he was readying his rifle and apparently only loading one mag, his daughter was doing the same. He specifically told her to stay back and load more mags, come out when she had a few ready. He did this as a ploy to delay her attempt to engage.

Loaded mags. Lots of loaded mags.

On my service pistol, I took advantage of my department firearms instructor privileges and purchased as many as my salary could spare. A lieutenant on my old job was injured in a gunfight when he ran out of ammo; afterwards he carried six mags everywhere, even off duty.

Backup and assistance.

This is a question. Should your family members be backing you? If defending my home its no question to have all hands on deck. For third party defense?

Bystanders.

As I understand the scenario, Willeford was setting up his first shots while the perp was firing on wounded inside the church. Every second he delayed taking a shot was one more person dying but he had to take a shot at a gap in the perp's armor as he was moving.

Once Willeford started firing and apparently hitting the perp, the perp returned fire, striking adjacent homes. Willeford was aware many of the homes were occupied and a pitched gunfight would put everyone in the neighborhood at risk. Fortunately the perp decided to flee. Even so, You don't just let someone like that go. He just attacked 50 or so people. He may go to rearm and attack others. Could be wrong, but I seem to have read he had an additional 5000 rounds and could well have attacked additional churches as he was supposedly hunting down his wife, not present at the first church.

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:42 pm 
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From NPR: At Least 4 Victims Killed After Shooting At School, Other Locations In California
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At Least 4 Victims Killed After Shooting At School, Other Locations In California November 14, 2017 1:57 PM ET By Camila Domonoske Updated at 2:25 p.m. ET

A shooter in Northern California has killed at least four people in a violent rampage that began at a home and ultimately included seven separate scenes, including an elementary school, officials say.

The shooter was killed by police, bringing the total death toll to five.

At least two children are among the wounded — a student at Rancho Tehama Elementary School in Tehama County was shot, and another child was shot in a truck along the road, according to Assistant Sheriff Phil Johnston. A woman driving the truck was also shot, and all three are being treated for their injuries.

The first calls about the shooting came in shortly before 8 a.m. local time on Tuesday, Johnston told reporters. The first calls described a shooting on Bobcat Lane; calls from multiple other sites soon came in, including the elementary school.

The subject appeared to be "randomly picking targets," Johnston said.

The suspected shooter, whose name has not been released, was involved in a "domestic violence incident" reported by neighbors before the shooting, he said.

A "semi-automatic rifle and two handguns" were recovered from the shooting scene, Johnston said.

Stinson, calling Action News Now from the police roadblock, told the news channel there is a shot-up, taped-off truck on the road, and several worried parents unable to get past the roadblock and struggling to find a cell phone signal.

Law enforcement officers from a range of agencies have responded to the incident, including highway patrol and the FBI. Johnston said there were more than 100 officers helping cover the multiple scenes.

"It's a very sad day for us here in Tehama County," he told Action News Now, tearing up.

This is a breaking news story. As often happens in situations like these, some information reported early may turn out to be inaccurate. We'll move quickly to correct the record and we'll only point to the best information we have at the time.

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:00 pm 
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Getting back on topic here. The Church is still deciding what to do as a congregation. It is obviously very difficult for then to use the structure so profaned by the violence. They have set up a memorial for now while they decide the fate of the site and structure.

http://q13fox.com/2017/11/12/texas-chur ... oting/amp/

I would note the following bit of forgiveness:

Quote:
He says the memorial was a way to honor the victims without focusing on the shooting.

He says the church has reached out to the family of shooter "name redacted", and that church members are praying for "name redacted" 's family.




If you want to send money to help with the expenses there are several go fund me sites. I have not done the requisite diligence to recommend any so I will not post a link but rather a news story which discusses the sites.

I would note that one family lost 8 members. I cannot imagine what it must be like to arrange funerals for 8 family members at once.

http://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/donors-rai ... d=51011018

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:19 pm 
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raptor wrote:
Getting back on topic here. The Church is still deciding what to do as a congregation. It is obviously very difficult for then to use the structure so profaned by the violence. They have set up a memorial for now while they decide the fate of the site and structure.

http://q13fox.com/2017/11/12/texas-chur ... oting/amp/

I would note the following bit of forgiveness:

Quote:
He says the memorial was a way to honor the victims without focusing on the shooting.

He says the church has reached out to the family of shooter "name redacted", and that church members are praying for "name redacted" 's family.




If you want to send money to help with the expenses there are several go fund me sites. I have not done the requisite diligence to recommend any so I will not post a link but rather a news story which discusses the sites.

I would note that one family lost 8 members. I cannot imagine what it must be like to arrange funerals for 8 family members at once.

http://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/donors-rai ... d=51011018


I've only had to arrange one funeral (my dad died in a car accident back in 2012) and that was hard enough. I can't even begin to imagine the heartbreak and stress planning 8 funerals at one time induces.

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