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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:24 pm 
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raptor wrote:
jor-el wrote:

Finally, imagine taking the same shots with any service pistol with iron sights at 20-25 yards. Can anyone here make the same shot under stress and bad footing (Willford was barefoot on gravelly ground I think)? Rather, try hitting this silhouette target while its moving and only hitting the X ring.

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That post is a good dose of reality. There is a lot of ugly truth there.

That said any resistance whether lethal or not will delay an attacker and draw attention away from others. It may mean just a noisy death for the person bringing a pistol to a rifle fight but resistance does give the others a chance to escape if the person with the CCW is willing to draw fire under such a situation. Not a great option but IMO it beats the hell out of dying on your knees.

I sincerely hope I (or anyone else for that matter) never have to face such a situation. That said what I do practice (I am not saying that I can do this while being shot at from 25 yards, I only practicing it) are hits to the very upper chest, neck and face/head. In this case MF was wearing a helmet so the neck area would be a possible alternate aiming point.

Yes I know that is not a great answer but again I come back to, you use what you have at hand to do what you can.

Still your post is great does of reality. Thank you!

Even though Willeford is a former NRA instructor, he has repeatedly said he had help from above. I'm inclined to believe him. After reading more about the incident and the perpetrator I've decided that mf is too good a name for him. And a blank space is a more apt . I just found out the entire attack was recorded on the churches service recording camera.

"At approximately 11:20 a.m. CST, exited from a vehicle at a gas station across the street from the First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs wearing black tactical gear, a ballistic vest and a black facemask featuring a white skull.[6] Wielding a Ruger AR-556 semi-automatic rifle,[7][8][9] he immediately fired in the direction of the church.[10] After crossing the street, he approached the building from the right while firing, and continued to fire while entering the church building with worshipers attending regular Sunday service.[11] Inside, he yelled, "Everybody dies motherfuckers," as he proceeded up and down the aisle and shot at people in the pews.[6][12] Police would later find 15 empty AR-15 magazines of 30 rounds each.[13][14][15] According to police, the shooting was captured on a camera set up at the back of the church to record regular services for uploading online.[16]
As left the church, he was confronted by local resident and former NRA firearms instructor Stephen Willeford,[17] armed with an AR-15 pattern semi-automatic rifle. While taking cover behind a truck, Willeford shot twice.[18][19][20] After being shot, dropped his rifle and fled in his Ford Explorer as Willeford fired several rounds through the vehicle's window.[21][22] Willeford flagged down a passing pickup truck driven by Johnnie Langendorff, and they pursued at high speed for about five to seven minutes. According to Langendorff, they drove at speeds up to 95 miles per hour.[23] During the chase, called his father to tell him that he was injured and thought that he would not survive.[20] After losing control of his vehicle, crashed in neighboring Guadalupe County,[24] near the city of New Berlin.[25] He was observed to be motionless by the two men in pursuit, and police took over the scene when they arrived.[26] Police found dead in his car,[24] with three gunshot wounds, including a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the head.[27] Two handguns were found in the vehicle: a Glock 9 mm and a Ruger .22-caliber, both of which had purchased "


Reading about the murderer , he was a problem his entire life. One evil , sick twisted little prick.

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:35 pm 
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flybynight wrote:
Reading about the murderer , he was a problem his entire life. One evil , sick twisted little prick.


I have nothing to add to that description.

FWIW I too believe Willeford's thoughts on the matter of assistance.

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:22 pm 
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I wonder if he shot himself with the glock. If so this will be the first and only time you hear me say GLOCK PERFECTION

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:33 pm 
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I haven't been around people wearing body armor very much. Is it easy to spot if people are wearing LBE over top of it?

I imagine it would be easy for someone to not notice the presence of body armor if it was under a chest rig full of magazines, especially in a surprising and terrifying situation. I've been told in handgun classes (marksmanship classes, not real fighting classes) to fire three rounds center of mass and then switch to head/groin shots. That sounds reasonable, but I can also see it being easy to rapidly empty a single-stack or small revolver into CoM when you're frightened and surprised.


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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:33 pm 
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quazi wrote:
I haven't been around people wearing body armor very much. Is it easy to spot if people are wearing LBE over top of it?

I imagine it would be easy for someone to not notice the presence of body armor if it was under a chest rig full of magazines, especially in a surprising and terrifying situation. I've been told in handgun classes (marksmanship classes, not real fighting classes) to fire three rounds center of mass and then switch to head/groin shots. That sounds reasonable, but I can also see it being easy to rapidly empty a single-stack or small revolver into CoM when you're frightened and surprised.


Hence training and practice. Back during the Vietnam War, there was some speculation as to the protective properties of the type 59 chest rigs when fully loaded with magazines. Against M193 from a 20 inch barrel, not much. Against current modern 9MM hollow points? Maybe. The safe bet would be if a hostile appears with both a rifle and a chest rig with mags, he probably did his homework and bought body armor.
Ebay is awash in used off warranty vests as both LE and private security consume them. No maker warrants the vests past 5 years so agencies retire the vests or cycle them back to the manufacturer for rebates on new vests. If you can afford a rifle, mags and ammo you can afford a used vest.

My old department has cargo containers of mildewy, B.O. smelling vest panels we used for various projects. Even the seventies vintage level I panels would hold up against current rounds though the backface deformation would be substantial.

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:23 pm 
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jor-el wrote:
quazi wrote:
I haven't been around people wearing body armor very much. Is it easy to spot if people are wearing LBE over top of it?

I imagine it would be easy for someone to not notice the presence of body armor if it was under a chest rig full of magazines, especially in a surprising and terrifying situation. I've been told in handgun classes (marksmanship classes, not real fighting classes) to fire three rounds center of mass and then switch to head/groin shots. That sounds reasonable, but I can also see it being easy to rapidly empty a single-stack or small revolver into CoM when you're frightened and surprised.


Hence training and practice. Back during the Vietnam War, there was some speculation as to the protective properties of the type 59 chest rigs when fully loaded with magazines. Against M193 from a 20 inch barrel, not much. Against current modern 9MM hollow points? Maybe. The safe bet would be if a hostile appears with both a rifle and a chest rig with mags, he probably did his homework and bought body armor.
Ebay is awash in used off warranty vests as both LE and private security consume them. No maker warrants the vests past 5 years so agencies retire the vests or cycle them back to the manufacturer for rebates on new vests. If you can afford a rifle, mags and ammo you can afford a used vest.

My old department has cargo containers of mildewy, B.O. smelling vest panels we used for various projects. Even the seventies vintage level I panels would hold up against current rounds though the backface deformation would be substantial.

So the warranty expired, but the vest still works?

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:51 am 
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You buy level III armor on Jet for under $200 with carrier and mag pouches. The carrier is junk but if you are only going to use it once....

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:52 am 
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Warranties usually cover manufacturers defects for a set period of time. Plenty of stuff lasts well beyond the warranty, just means the manufacturer doesn't assume liability on defective goods past the expiration date.

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:44 am 
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Watch the body armor, too. Hubby bought a high level body armor for police work many years ago. After a couple years of wear, a seam came open and he discovered the armor inside was several levels under what he had paid for.

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:47 am 
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Quote:
The father of the man who officials say gunned down worshipers Sunday at a rural Texas church has broken his silence.

"We we are grieving, our family is grieving," Michael Kelley told ABC News Wednesday at his home in New Braunfels, Texas, located about 35 miles north of Sutherland Springs, where the worst mass shooting in Texas history occurred.

"I don't want our lives, our grandchildren's lives, destroyed by this media circus," Michael Kelly said, adding that the family has nothing else to say at the moment.


It's kind of hard not to be judgy right now.

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:26 pm 
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flybynight wrote:
[snip] Willeford flagged down a passing pickup truck driven by Johnnie Langendorff, and they pursued at high speed for about five to seven minutes. According to Langendorff, they drove at speeds up to 95 miles per hour.[snip]

Reading about the murderer , he was a problem his entire life. One evil , sick twisted little prick.


I'm amazed, I didn't know it was a flagdown, I assumed they new each other.
In my AO a guy flagging cars and carrying an AR pattern rifle or any rifle for that matter would not get a ride from anyone.

ImageImage

But if securely encased, then maybe... depending on the attire.

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:38 pm 
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MacWa77ace wrote:
flybynight wrote:
[snip] Willeford flagged down a passing pickup truck driven by Johnnie Langendorff, and they pursued at high speed for about five to seven minutes. According to Langendorff, they drove at speeds up to 95 miles per hour.[snip]

Reading about the murderer , he was a problem his entire life. One evil , sick twisted little prick.


I'm amazed, I didn't know it was a flagdown, I assumed they new each other.
In my AO a guy flagging cars and carrying an AR pattern rifle or any rifle for that matter would not get a ride from anyone.



The driver recognized Willeford as a being a local but did not know his name. Willeford said the same thing. Willeford said the driver saw the initial encounter while stopped at a stop sign. He then ran up to the truck and explained what happened.

In Willeford's interview he said he was barefoot at the time.

Ask yourself this question. It is Sunday morning you went out to get something and when you pull up to a stop sign you see MF in "tactical clothing" you do not know get shot by someone you recognize but do no know. The guy is barefoot and carrying an AR runs up to your car. What do you do?

That incident is one reason that Willeford says he had divine help because the driver instantly trusted him.

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:19 pm 
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I saw a interview he gave.
He heard what sounded like someone tapping on window glass. His daughter came and told him she heard what sounded like gunfire. They both stepped outside and heard and saw the attack taking place. They ran back into the house and he grabbed his rifle and a handful of shells. His daughter also grabbed her rifle. He had the presence of mind to tell her to load up as many magazines as she could ( to keep her busy from coming out with him). She shoots expert, but without question began loading mags. He said he didn't think she would fall for such an obvious ploy . But she did. He runs outside , The ... shoots at him with a handgun one bullet strikes the windshield of the truck whose hood he is taken cover behind. The second shot passes over his head , through the window of his neighbors house and misses his neighbors two yr old child by a couple feet. Willeford returns fire striking ... twice , who then jumps into his suv and roars off. Willeford fires at the back of departing vehicle about where he judged his head would be. He described it as surreal and he felt even at the time how amazing that he was so calm . Like he was being helped or watched over.

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:09 pm 
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jor-el wrote:

I still have Arsenal 141/72 steel core and fill one mag with it. I'd lead off with that if there was a hint of opposing armor.



I don't follow; if it is soft armor *ANY* rifle round will do, if it will stop normal rifle rounds it will stop steel core, why not just use the bullet that will perform the best in tissue?

Was the perp wearing hard plates or soft armor only? I assumed it was soft in which case it really wouldn't matter much if he was hit in the gaps or not.

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:43 pm 
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MacWa77ace wrote:
flybynight wrote:
[snip] Willeford flagged down a passing pickup truck driven by Johnnie Langendorff, and they pursued at high speed for about five to seven minutes. According to Langendorff, they drove at speeds up to 95 miles per hour.[snip]

Reading about the murderer , he was a problem his entire life. One evil , sick twisted little prick.


I'm amazed, I didn't know it was a flagdown, I assumed they new each other.
In my AO a guy flagging cars and carrying an AR pattern rifle or any rifle for that matter would not get a ride from anyone.

ImageImage

But if securely encased, then maybe... depending on the attire.

Image

Hmmm . The third picture shows the most dangerous of the three :crazy:

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:42 am 
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RonnyRonin wrote:
jor-el wrote:

I still have Arsenal 141/72 steel core and fill one mag with it. I'd lead off with that if there was a hint of opposing armor.



I don't follow; if it is soft armor *ANY* rifle round will do, if it will stop normal rifle rounds it will stop steel core, why not just use the bullet that will perform the best in tissue?

Was the perp wearing hard plates or soft armor only? I assumed it was soft in which case it really wouldn't matter much if he was hit in the gaps or not.

The current description says trauma plate but I don't trust MSM accounts of anything. For the record,
Sportsmans Guide level IV plates for less than $200 apiece:
https://www.sportsmansguide.com/product ... =112&c=444

Given an updated account of the shootout, perp seems to have returned fire against the rescue shooter, and those rounds were creating a hazard even within bystanders homes. If he does have plates, why do I want to find that out AFTER expending a magazine? Under the same scenario I do own a FEW loaded mags and I wanted to take the first (and hopefully only) shots with something a bit more capable of piercing the perp's defenses and taking him down BEFORE he can retaliate.

If he's wearing plates hitting him COM may still give him blunt trauma through the vest and make him zeroing on me a little harder. Possibly a better choice would be to go for the head. I think I've found one true level III helmet and it was far from cheap. Vast majority are IIIA and will not stop a good rifle bullet at short range, let alone a handful of hits.

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:07 am 
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My current thoughts are we need to train for pelvis shots. It is bigger and slower than the head. And we don't know who has armor and who does not.

Just a thought.

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:09 am 
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Quote:
Ask yourself this question. It is Sunday morning you went out to get something and when you pull up to a stop sign you see MF in "tactical clothing" you do not know get shot by someone you recognize but do no know. The guy is barefoot and carrying an AR runs up to your car. What do you do?


One guy in tactical I don't know is more likely to be the bad guy.

Small towns are small towns.

Of course if I recognize the bad guy as a regular bad guy he is going to have problems even if he was not the bad guy this time.

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:31 am 
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While I haven't seen any evidence of increased gun buying, Dragon Man - "The most heavily armed man in America" - claims assault rifle sales are surging.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... onths.html


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absinthe beginner wrote:
While I haven't seen any evidence of increased gun buying, Dragon Man - "The most heavily armed man in America" - claims assault rifle sales are surging.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... onths.html


.... everybody repeat after me....

"No matter how much .22lr I buy they still won't ban it. So I don't need to keep it buying it. Because that would be stupid. And I am not stupid. And there is no invasion of rabbits or squirrels coming either... sure zombies maybe... but a sword works just as good on zombies.... maybe better. So I don't need to keep buying .22lr because I'm Good Enough, I'm Smart Enough, & Doggone It, People Like me... unless I keep going to Walmart and buying all the .22lr then people will hate me"

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:37 pm 
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Stercutus wrote:
absinthe beginner wrote:
While I haven't seen any evidence of increased gun buying, Dragon Man - "The most heavily armed man in America" - claims assault rifle sales are surging.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... onths.html


.... everybody repeat after me....

"No matter how much .22lr I buy they still won't ban it. So I don't need to keep it buying it. Because that would be stupid. And I am not stupid. And there is no invasion of rabbits or squirrels coming either... sure zombies maybe... but a sword works just as good on zombies.... maybe better. So I don't need to keep buying .22lr because I'm Good Enough, I'm Smart Enough, & Doggone It, People Like me... unless I keep going to Walmart and buying all the .22lr then people will hate me"


'YEAH THAT'S THE TICKET', Stuart Smalley is 'THE MOST HEAVILY ARMED MAN IN 'MERIKA'....

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:17 pm 
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Stercutus wrote:

.... everybody repeat after me....

"No matter how much .22lr I buy they still won't ban it. So I don't need to keep it buying it. Because that would be stupid. And I am not stupid. And there is no invasion of rabbits or squirrels coming either... sure zombies maybe... but a sword works just as good on zombies.... maybe better. So I don't need to keep buying .22lr because I'm Good Enough, I'm Smart Enough, & Doggone It, People Like me... unless I keep going to Walmart and buying all the .22lr then people will hate me"


But...but...but... there are Pre-Black Friday sales of .22lr everywhere.


https://www.outdoorlimited.com/ProductD ... 222332case
https://ammoking.com/aguila-22-lr-stand ... nds-brick/
These are .22lr @ $.038/round (excluding shipping of course)


https://www.outdoorlimited.com/ProductD ... tCode=pp52
This is Privi PPU 5.56mm @ $5.69 for a box of 20. $.284 per round.

https://www.gunbuyer.com/catalog/produc ... an-556mil/
This is 1,000 rounds with an ammo can @ $.28 per round

Seriously, there are a lot of sales and decent prices. It never hurts to pick up ammo when it is cheap. It has been cheaper in the past but I have seen some decent prices for retail ammo both bulk and non-bulk.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:37 pm 
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raptor wrote:

Ask yourself this question. It is Sunday morning you went out to get something and when you pull up to a stop sign you see MF in "tactical clothing" you do not know get shot by someone you recognize but do no know. The guy is barefoot and carrying an AR runs up to your car. What do you do?

That incident is one reason that Willeford says he had divine help because the driver instantly trusted him.



Good muzzle discipline goes a long way in building trust.

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:19 pm 
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jor-el wrote:
If he does have plates, why do I want to find that out AFTER expending a magazine? Under the same scenario I do own a FEW loaded mags and I wanted to take the first (and hopefully only) shots with something a bit more capable of piercing the perp's defenses and taking him down BEFORE he can retaliate.




But thats the part I don't understand, steel core doesn't really give you a better chance to defeat armor, anything that steel core will defeat normal lead core will as well, anything that normal rifle ammo can't defeat, steel core can't either. If the Venn diagram overlaps, it is a tiny sliver. Normal ball ammo will punch through several stacked soft vests, while all but the very worst plates will stop steel core, and most steel core seems to underperform in soft tissue so why not pick the best bullet and resort to software solutions (hips and head) if his armor can stop your rounds, because you would likely have to do the exact same thing anyway with steel core?

Is there a commonly available armor that can be defeated with steel but not ball? The only example I can think of is some exotic UHWPE plates but they will still stop 7.62x39 steel core, just not 5.56 green tip.

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