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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:04 pm 
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raptor wrote:
MPMalloy wrote:
12_Gauge_Chimp wrote:
Matter of fact, I'd much prefer to know the names of the two men who challenged this MF and drove him off. Those two men are heroes and deserve the medias attention more than the bastard who killed those people.
+1 most strongly!



Pictures and names of the heroes.

Stephen Willeford

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Johnnie Langendorff
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RickOShea wrote:
12_Gauge_Chimp wrote:
Matter of fact, I'd much prefer to know the names of the two men who challenged this MF and drove him off. Those two men are heroes and deserve the medias attention more than the bastard who killed those people.

https://heavy.com/news/2017/11/stephen-willeford-sutherland-springs-church-neighbor-good-guy-gun/


Thanks for the info, Raptor and RickOShea.

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:28 pm 
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The USAF owns up the recordation error.
Not that it means anything at this point in time.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/06/us/t ... hurch.html

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:11 pm 
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raptor wrote:
The USAF owns up the recordation error.
Not that it means anything at this point in time.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/06/us/t ... hurch.html


Figured it had to be something like that. :(

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:11 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:16 am 
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Stercutus wrote:
raptor wrote:
The USAF owns up the recordation error.
Not that it means anything at this point in time.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/06/us/t ... hurch.html


Figured it had to be something like that. :(


At least they had the b***s to take responsibility for it. In this day and age, that says something.


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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:14 am 
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I bet Willeford is still in shock.

Once it all settles in it will hit him like a ton of bricks.

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:44 pm 
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For the fools who claim Willeford arrived too late to save anyone, here's one account that contradicts that.

http://nypost.com/2017/11/07/churchgoer ... -was-shot/

There were at least 20 people still alive inside the church that the killer was anchor shooting until Willeford shot him while he was still inside the church. Likely the killer's body armor blocked the shot from wounding him seriously but enough to force the killer to engage an actual threat.

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:01 pm 
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jor-el wrote:
For the fools who claim Willeford arrived too late to save anyone, here's one account that contradicts that.

http://nypost.com/2017/11/07/churchgoer ... -was-shot/

There were at least 20 people still alive inside the church that the killer was anchor shooting until Willeford shot him while he was still inside the church. Likely the killer's body armor blocked the shot from wounding him seriously but enough to force the killer to engage an actual threat.


That argument in the first line of your post is one of the BEST reasons to support concealed carry.

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:57 pm 
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jor-el wrote:
Likely the killer's body armor blocked the shot from wounding him seriously but enough to force the killer to engage an actual threat.


In the interview Willeford said he shot MF where the ballistic panels had a gap with his AR-15. Amazing interview BTW. I believe Willeford but it sure seems that MF was pretty mobile after being shot with a 5.56mm at 30 +/- yards.

Willeford also started the engagement with a "hand full of ammo" so much less than a full standard capacity magazine. He finished the fight with one round in the mag and 1 in the chamber. Excellent fire discipline on his part.

For what it is worth IMO that makes keeping at least a two pack of standard capacity magazines loaded for HD purposes a very sensible thing. It likely would have ended things right there if he had fired more than one round at that point ballistic vest & helmet notwithstanding.

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:31 pm 
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I did a little reading on Facebook and according to several survivors, MF went aisle to aisle in the church looking for crying babies and shot them at point blank range. He specifically sought them out during his rampage.

Words cannot begin to describe my anger after hearing this. :vmad:

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:56 pm 
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12_Gauge_Chimp wrote:
Words cannot begin to describe my anger after hearing this. :vmad:


I started to read the article on that and stopped because of the similar reaction it caused.

I sincerely hope MF is cremated and flushed down a sewer.

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:42 pm 
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I kind of regret starting this thread, after hearing about the above posts.

raptor, I agree with your ideas regarding disposal.

I cannot describe how I feel right now. Vengeful rage.

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:32 pm 
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MPMalloy wrote:
I kind of regret starting this thread, after hearing about the above posts.

raptor, I agree with your ideas regarding disposal.

I cannot describe how I feel right now. Vengeful rage.



When I read the article, I felt rage and anger toward the bastard, followed by utter sadness and heartfelt sorrow for the people who were harmed by this putrid sack of elephant dung.

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:10 pm 
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Given his history of violence towards his own kids and the cruelty to animals thing it was only a matter of time. Anyone who tortures animals is only warming up to go to work on people. It is a classic indicator.

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:18 pm 
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raptor wrote:
For what it is worth IMO that makes keeping at least a two pack of standard capacity magazines loaded for HD purposes a very sensible thing.


Yup. No matter what vest/rig/belt you think you might have time to put on, two mags taped together or at least a spare strapped to the butt makes the most sense for the right-the-hell-now kind of event we pray we will never see.

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:01 am 
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RonnyRonin wrote:

Yup. No matter what vest/rig/belt you think you might have time to put on, two mags taped together or at least a spare strapped to the butt makes the most sense for the right-the-hell-now kind of event we pray we will never see.



https://www.magpul.com/products/firearm ... 0-40-ar-m4

I have one of these. Might be time to get one or two more to stash in various locations

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:29 pm 
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CG wrote:
jor-el wrote:
For the fools who claim Willeford arrived too late to save anyone, here's one account that contradicts that.

http://nypost.com/2017/11/07/churchgoer ... -was-shot/

There were at least 20 people still alive inside the church that the killer was anchor shooting until Willeford shot him while he was still inside the church. Likely the killer's body armor blocked the shot from wounding him seriously but enough to force the killer to engage an actual threat.


That argument in the first line of your post is one of the BEST reasons to support concealed carry.

Unless you mean concealed carry of an AR, Mini-Anything, or a Garand? Perp body armor is a thing these days. Short of a FiveNSeven or a Czech loaded Tokarev, IIIA body armor will blunt most pistol rounds. Likely example shown below. Note the front pocket where a trauma plate was present.
Image
Willeford is generally agreed to be 20-25 yards from the perp at the start of his engagement. He has stated he aimed at the armor gaps. That's really either a gap along the sides of the torso or the hole the neck passes through as shown above.
Willeford's AR is reported to have an Eotech RDS. Based on the above image presentation the least protected spot is the deltoid/shoulder shot.
Michael Platt, the principal perp in the 1986 Miami shootout was struck with that shot on his left by a 115 grain Winchester Silvertip HP that also passed through the left bicep. The round just nicked the pericardial sac and would eventually have killed him. In Platt's case he lived long enough to nearly kill the entire FBI team sent to apprehend him. Hence the current desire for 12+ inch penetration.

Image

Another possibility is even if he aimed for a gap, the difference between sight axis and bore axis is about 2+ inches, enough to cause a round to hit the edge of the armor panel.

Finally, imagine taking the same shots with any service pistol with iron sights at 20-25 yards. Can anyone here make the same shot under stress and bad footing (Willford was barefoot on gravelly ground I think)? Rather, try hitting this silhouette target while its moving and only hitting the X ring.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:33 pm 
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jor-el wrote:
CG wrote:
jor-el wrote:
For the fools who claim Willeford arrived too late to save anyone, here's one account that contradicts that.

http://nypost.com/2017/11/07/churchgoer ... -was-shot/

There were at least 20 people still alive inside the church that the killer was anchor shooting until Willeford shot him while he was still inside the church. Likely the killer's body armor blocked the shot from wounding him seriously but enough to force the killer to engage an actual threat.


That argument in the first line of your post is one of the BEST reasons to support concealed carry.

Unless you mean concealed carry of an AR, Mini-Anything, or a Garand? Perp body armor is a thing these days. Short of a FiveNSeven or a Czech loaded Tokarev, IIIA body armor will blunt most pistol rounds. Likely example shown below. Note the front pocket where a trauma plate was present.
Image
Willeford is generally agreed to be 20-25 yards from the perp at the start of his engagement. He has stated he aimed at the armor gaps. That's really either a gap along the sides of the torso or the hole the neck passes through as shown above.
Willeford's AR is reported to have an Eotech RDS. Based on the above image presentation the least protected spot is the deltoid/shoulder shot.
Michael Platt, the principal perp in the 1986 Miami shootout was struck with that shot on his left by a 115 grain Winchester Silvertip HP that also passed through the left bicep. The round just nicked the pericardial sac and would eventually have killed him. In Platt's case he lived long enough to nearly kill the entire FBI team sent to apprehend him. Hence the current desire for 12+ inch penetration.

Image

Another possibility is even if he aimed for a gap, the difference between sight axis and bore axis is about 2+ inches, enough to cause a round to hit the edge of the armor panel.

Finally, imagine taking the same shots with any service pistol with iron sights at 20-25 yards. Can anyone here make the same shot under stress and bad footing (Willford was barefoot on gravelly ground I think)? Rather, try hitting this silhouette target while its moving and only hitting the X ring.

Image
Thank you jor-el. We all pray we never need your info.

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:43 pm 
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http://nypost.com/2017/11/08/video-show ... as-killer/

I'm curious how long that drone was up, and I'd want to see the video.

Regards my previous post, typical CCW weapons vs opponents with body armor should not be trying to overwhelm the armor. Concealed pistols should be deployed against unarmored parts of the body ala the Mozambique or Failure Drill. PD wisdom is to assess after three rounds then go for head or groin shots. With a rifle armed opponent wearing apparent body armor, you may not want to start with a torso shot.

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:52 pm 
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jor-el wrote:

Finally, imagine taking the same shots with any service pistol with iron sights at 20-25 yards. Can anyone here make the same shot under stress and bad footing (Willford was barefoot on gravelly ground I think)? Rather, try hitting this silhouette target while its moving and only hitting the X ring.

Image


That post is a good dose of reality. There is a lot of ugly truth there.

That said any resistance whether lethal or not will delay an attacker and draw attention away from others. It may mean just a noisy death for the person bringing a pistol to a rifle fight but resistance does give the others a chance to escape if the person with the CCW is willing to draw fire under such a situation. Not a great option but IMO it beats the hell out of dying on your knees.

I sincerely hope I (or anyone else for that matter) never have to face such a situation. That said what I do practice (I am not saying that I can do this while being shot at from 25 yards, I only practicing it) are hits to the very upper chest, neck and face/head. In this case MF was wearing a helmet so the neck area would be a possible alternate aiming point.

Yes I know that is not a great answer but again I come back to, you use what you have at hand to do what you can.

Still your post is great does of reality. Thank you!

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:34 pm 
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Living in NY just about makes owning an AR in its non-neutered form impossible.

Plan B:
Image

This, minus flash hider, minus 20 round mag. Plus Primary Arms 1-6x24 ACSS, plus Alaska Arms 30mm High lever rings. Plus 12 Pro-Mag 10 rounders.

And a 1/2K of this:
Image
I think they call this Hornady Black now.

I still have Arsenal 141/72 steel core and fill one mag with it. I'd lead off with that if there was a hint of opposing armor.

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:28 pm 
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So SC is NOT considered AP?

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:26 pm 
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MPMalloy wrote:
So SC is NOT considered AP?



If I'm reading you right, then yes, mild steel core is not actually armor piercing. Hardened steel core is. This has been proven over and over by much of the internet concerned with such subjects.

On the other hand, the ATF follows it's own rules, and they have decided anything steel cored and possible to shoot out of some form of pistol is outlawed. Well, there is a law too, but there is discussion on how the ATF enforces that law.

The story I've read is steel core 7.62x39 was legal until somebody made a 7.62x39 pistol.

The story goes steel core 5.45x39 was legal because no pistols existed in that caliber. Then supposedly Somebody submitted plans for one and the ATF promptly banned it. I don't know that any pistols in 5.45 have yet been produced.

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 Post subject: Re: Church shooting
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:35 pm 
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woodsghost wrote:
MPMalloy wrote:
So SC is NOT considered AP?



If I'm reading you right, then yes, mild steel core is not actually armor piercing. Hardened steel core is. This has been proven over and over by much of the internet concerned with such subjects.

On the other hand, the ATF follows it's own rules, and they have decided anything steel cored and possible to shoot out of some form of pistol is outlawed. Well, there is a law too, but there is discussion on how the ATF enforces that law.

The story I've read is steel core 7.62x39 was legal until somebody made a 7.62x39 pistol.

The story goes steel core 5.45x39 was legal because no pistols existed in that caliber. Then supposedly Somebody submitted plans for one and the ATF promptly banned it. I don't know that any pistols in 5.45 have yet been produced.

Thank you.

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