It is currently Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:28 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 103 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:50 am 
Offline
* * * * *

Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:50 am
Posts: 1629
Location: Midwest
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 39 times
Stercutus wrote:
I'd agree except there is a problem with the theory. Prior to the introduction of these scripts in to our society mass public shooting that were not politically related were a bit of a rarity. Still, even then the shooter was most often seriously mentally ill, such as with the Texas Bell Tower shooter. I'd also be more inclined to agree if there were significant numbers of shooters who:

- Were not on/ off meds
- Not other wise motivated (terror or whatever)

But they are ALL on/off meds.

Check the timing. I'm fairly certain the rise of mass killings happened roughly on the same timeline as the public demanding mental institutions be permanently closed. Closing of mental hospitals/institutions made the mental health crisis in this country far, far more severe. The affect has been that systems that were never designed to support the seriously mentally ill have had to take over that job (like the police and homeless services), pushing everyone who needs care down the ladder a rung, leading to a lot of people not getting the level of care they need because the system is overwhelmed.

As WG noted, social media and cable TV have been HUUUUGE factors for helping to feed people's psychoses. Access to those things also has risen at about the same rate as mass killers.

As far as your insistence that it's the drugs, if they're on drugs, a professional has realized their brain is broken. You should expect mass killers to have an active Rx for psychoactive drugs (regardless of whether or not the killer is actually taking them). If you had a killer who didn't have an Rx, that would be surprising because it means that the person never seemed crazy enough before they snapped to get any attention.


Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:26 am 
Offline
* * * * *
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:16 pm
Posts: 11348
Has thanked: 71 times
Been thanked: 574 times
williaty wrote:
Stercutus wrote:
I'd agree except there is a problem with the theory. Prior to the introduction of these scripts in to our society mass public shooting that were not politically related were a bit of a rarity. Still, even then the shooter was most often seriously mentally ill, such as with the Texas Bell Tower shooter. I'd also be more inclined to agree if there were significant numbers of shooters who:

- Were not on/ off meds
- Not other wise motivated (terror or whatever)

But they are ALL on/off meds.

Check the timing. I'm fairly certain the rise of mass killings happened roughly on the same timeline as the public demanding mental institutions be permanently closed. Closing of mental hospitals/institutions made the mental health crisis in this country far, far more severe. The affect has been that systems that were never designed to support the seriously mentally ill have had to take over that job (like the police and homeless services), pushing everyone who needs care down the ladder a rung, leading to a lot of people not getting the level of care they need because the system is overwhelmed.

As WG noted, social media and cable TV have been HUUUUGE factors for helping to feed people's psychoses. Access to those things also has risen at about the same rate as mass killers.

As far as your insistence that it's the drugs, if they're on drugs, a professional has realized their brain is broken. You should expect mass killers to have an active Rx for psychoactive drugs (regardless of whether or not the killer is actually taking them).


I am going to go ahead and agree on your other points as contributing factors. Certainly the mental health system in the US is as broken as Humpty Dumpty.

Asylums began closing down for a lot of reasons, some political, some not, so I don't really want to go in to the reasoning behind it. It certainly helped feed the process. Several of the mass shooters would very likely have been committed under the old system and have been put away (say VATech and Loughner). Most others would not have been. If they were not put away under the old system then we should have had more shootings back then. And certainly before we had asylums we should have had more back then as well.

It is difficult to gauge the effect of different types of media on people and bringing out violent behavior in them. While I'd say it is possible, even likely and logical I think more research is merited to show a link.


Quote:
If you had a killer who didn't have an Rx, that would be surprising because it means that the person never seemed crazy enough before they snapped to get any attention.


Well no, not everyone gets a pill. Not everyone seeks help or gets it provided for them. Many of the shooters start with minor mental illness that seems to balloon after the application of drugs. But all the shooters outside of the religious and political crazies are on some kind of mind altering drug. People slip through the cracks. If the drugs play no role then there is something else seriously statistically skewed here.

But I believe it is the drugs.

_________________
"Big Thanks - I promise to advance your agenda within the secret and omnipotent councils of the Trilateral Commission"

“No-one likes us, we don’t care.”


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:00 pm 
Offline
ZS Moderator
ZS Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 10:18 pm
Posts: 15644
Location: Greater New Orleans Area
Has thanked: 845 times
Been thanked: 473 times
Stercutus wrote:
But I believe it is the drugs.


I have heard several experts say they do not know why (exactly) the drugs work. They simply administer the drugs and adjust dosage to achieve the desired effect and them adjust for side effects.

How could drugs that are given on "try it and see what it does" basis possible cause unintended and unknown problems?

I am not sure whether or not it is the drugs but IMO I am sure the combination of problem people, unknown effect drugs and lack of proper supervision is asking for unanticipated problems from unintended consequences.

_________________
Duco Ergo Sum

Link to ZS Hall of Fame Forum
ImageImageImage


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:27 pm 
Offline
ZS Member
ZS Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 11:58 pm
Posts: 3756
Has thanked: 1548 times
Been thanked: 470 times
I have a friend who's daughter is an ER nurse in Vegas. She says the current death count is correct, no coverups or other conspiracy stuff going on.

_________________
Most of my adventures are on my blog http://suntothenorth.blogspot.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
My Introduction With Pictures: http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... 10&t=79019" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Graduated with honors from kit porn university


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:06 pm 
Offline
* * * * *
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:31 pm
Posts: 1460
Location: NW Indiana
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 110 times
Quote:
I have heard several experts say they do not know why (exactly) the drugs work. They simply administer the drugs and adjust dosage to achieve the desired effect and them adjust for side effects.

we have a locked unit that most of the beds are filled with people who are getting their meds adjusted.

_________________
ZS Wiki


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:41 pm 
Offline
* * *
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:28 pm
Posts: 422
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 32 times
John Ringo has a Facebook post about meds:
https://www.facebook.com/notes/john-ringo/a-theory-on-las-vegas/10155111388257055/

_________________
I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they’ve always worked for me.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:52 pm 
Offline
* * * * *
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:16 pm
Posts: 11348
Has thanked: 71 times
Been thanked: 574 times
aikorob wrote:


I pretty much agree with the whole thing except about anti-malarial drugs. I am not saying it is impossible I just haven't seen evidence that is true.

_________________
"Big Thanks - I promise to advance your agenda within the secret and omnipotent councils of the Trilateral Commission"

“No-one likes us, we don’t care.”


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:11 pm 
Offline
* * * * *
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2012 5:41 pm
Posts: 3239
Location: Central Cascadia
Has thanked: 134 times
Been thanked: 268 times
Was just reading an article, on my phone but now I cant seem to find it on my work computer (will update with the article if I find it). It had peer reviewed studies that show that the mentally ill commit crime at a lower rate than people without. So, is blaming mentally ill the right area? Not trying to start debates, just something to think about. It's easy to scapegoat (I've done it), but factually it is incorrect. Drugs are another easy out, sure you can blame meth heads for destruction of property (look at the cashe thread I started), however they know if they get caught they are going to jail and wont be able to get their fix. So most crime done by druggies are nonviolent, property crimes.

I believe we just live in a violent society. A new picture being painted of this shooter is that he was one who was starting to lose control. In a world filled with all sorts of easy outs, you can go online and back up whatever crazy shit you have in your head. Be it flat earth, faked moon landing, lizard people living under us..... People in this country resort to violence. It's just who we are.

I don't really have much else to say about it. Just thought I'd put my thoughts down.

_________________
JeeperCreeper wrote:
I like huge dicks, Halfapint, so you are OK in my book.... hahaha
Spazzy wrote:
Tell ya what... If Zombies attack and the world ends I'll hook tandem toddlers to a plow if it means I'll be able to eat...


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:35 pm 
Offline
* * * * *
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:16 pm
Posts: 11348
Has thanked: 71 times
Been thanked: 574 times
Quote:
Was just reading an article, on my phone but now I cant seem to find it on my work computer (will update with the article if I find it). It had peer reviewed studies that show that the mentally ill commit crime at a lower rate than people without. So, is blaming mentally ill the right area?


Two things.

This isn't about shoplifting or spouse abuse. This is about random acts of mass murder for no apparent reason.

Nobody is "blaming the mentally ill". I am merely pointing to a much more than causal relationship between brain drugs and these acts.
Quote:
Drugs are another easy out, sure you can blame meth heads for destruction of property (look at the cashe thread I started), however they know if they get caught they are going to jail and wont be able to get their fix. So most crime done by druggies are nonviolent, property crimes.



Sure, most crime is non-violent property crime. But nearly all violent crime goes back to drug addicts and drunks assaulting each other and innocent victims.

Quote:
People in this country resort to violence. It's just who we are.


When you say "people" you make it seem common place. The overwhelming majority of people in the US live peaceful lives and seldom if ever see acts of violence. Far less commit them. If we lived in a society where violence was common there would never have been a concert, or a shooting to take place or even have been newsworthy enough to report it.

_________________
"Big Thanks - I promise to advance your agenda within the secret and omnipotent councils of the Trilateral Commission"

“No-one likes us, we don’t care.”


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:00 pm 
Offline
* * * * *
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2012 5:41 pm
Posts: 3239
Location: Central Cascadia
Has thanked: 134 times
Been thanked: 268 times
Stercutus wrote:
Quote:
Was just reading an article, on my phone but now I cant seem to find it on my work computer (will update with the article if I find it). It had peer reviewed studies that show that the mentally ill commit crime at a lower rate than people without. So, is blaming mentally ill the right area?


Two things.

This isn't about shoplifting or spouse abuse. This is about random acts of mass murder for no apparent reason.

Nobody is "blaming the mentally ill". I am merely pointing to a much more than causal relationship between brain drugs and these acts.


Stats or speculation? I've read some "reports" but about how a lot of mass shooters are on some sort of mind altering drugs. However, unless it was brought up in trial, it's hard to back any of that up with facts. Not saying there isn't a link, but other than some publications with less than stellar track records trying to make political points, the link between the two are a bit tenuous.


Stercutus wrote:
Quote:
Drugs are another easy out, sure you can blame meth heads for destruction of property (look at the cashe thread I started), however they know if they get caught they are going to jail and wont be able to get their fix. So most crime done by druggies are nonviolent, property crimes.



Sure, most crime is non-violent property crime. But nearly all violent crime goes back to drug addicts and drunks assaulting each other and innocent victims.


stats or speculation?

Stercutus wrote:
Quote:
People in this country resort to violence. It's just who we are.


When you say "people" you make it seem common place. The overwhelming majority of people in the US live peaceful lives and seldom if ever see acts of violence. Far less commit them. If we lived in a society where violence was common there would never have been a concert, or a shooting to take place or even have been newsworthy enough to report it.


Lastly, just because people aren't shooting up concerts or whatever every couple hours doesn't mean we aren't violent. Look at people screaming at each other in social media feeds, or on street corners, or road rage, or any even at concerts. I cant tell you how many times I've been punch or kicked by standing front row at a concert because people want to try to muscle their way in and cant. Drugs and mental illness are easy scapegoats. However, its just that, scapegoat. Americans are violent, that doesn't have to translate to physical violence in the form of shootings, violence takes lots of different forms.

I don't want to derail the thread any more. I just like to bring up other points/thoughts (also still looking for that article with links and sources.... grrr cant find it!).

_________________
JeeperCreeper wrote:
I like huge dicks, Halfapint, so you are OK in my book.... hahaha
Spazzy wrote:
Tell ya what... If Zombies attack and the world ends I'll hook tandem toddlers to a plow if it means I'll be able to eat...


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:53 pm 
Offline
ZS Member
ZS Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 2:49 am
Posts: 1792
Location: Yo Momma's House
Has thanked: 294 times
Been thanked: 246 times
Halfapint wrote:

Lastly, just because people aren't shooting up concerts or whatever every couple hours doesn't mean we aren't violent.


I think humans are by nature violent... not just Americans It is not a geographic or cultural issue, it's a human race issue. The only cultural context that matters is society and the law/order/ethics/morality in such a society, amongst other things.

Children want to hit others until told that is "not right". Elderly people with dementia are constantly violent as their frontal lobes don't tell them that violence is "not right". That really isn't scientific, but I think the example displays a decent point.

I'm sure I could go onto "I'mcorrect.org" and find some study or article or research or stats to prove my worldview, but it's how I see the world. Living in a world with humans is dangerous business...

_________________
They see me trollin', they hatin'.... keyboardin' tryna catch me typin' dirty
Halfapint wrote:
There are some exceptions like myself and jeepercreeper.... but we are the forum asshats. We protect our positions with gusto
zero11010 wrote:
The girlfriend is a good shot with a 10/22.
Her secondary offense will be nagging.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:38 pm 
Offline
* * * * *
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:16 pm
Posts: 11348
Has thanked: 71 times
Been thanked: 574 times
Quote:
Stats or speculation? I've read some "reports" but about how a lot of mass shooters are on some sort of mind altering drugs. However, unless it was brought up in trial, it's hard to back any of that up with facts. Not saying there isn't a link, but other than some publications with less than stellar track records trying to make political points, the link between the two are a bit tenuous.


Statistics. It does not have to be brought up at a trial to be proved either. Police agencies release toxicology reports all the time, especially if the shooter is dead, which is most often the case. Feel free to provide ANY examples of random mass murder shootings that are not terror related in the last 30 years where the shooter was NOT on/ off some type of mind altering drug. These would be a real rarity.
Quote:
Americans are violent, that doesn't have to translate to physical violence in the form of shootings, violence takes lots of different forms.


Maybe, but that isn't what we are discussing.

_________________
"Big Thanks - I promise to advance your agenda within the secret and omnipotent councils of the Trilateral Commission"

“No-one likes us, we don’t care.”


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:46 pm 
Offline
* * * * *
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2013 12:30 am
Posts: 1673
Has thanked: 241 times
Been thanked: 373 times
aikorob wrote:

YIKES :ohdear: :oh:

_________________
As of now I bet you got me wrong


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:46 pm 
Offline
* * * * *
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 16, 2013 3:45 pm
Posts: 2147
Has thanked: 1087 times
Been thanked: 302 times
Stercutus wrote:

Statistics. It does not have to be brought up at a trial to be proved either. Police agencies release toxicology reports all the time, especially if the shooter is dead, which is most often the case. Feel free to provide ANY examples of random mass murder shootings that are not terror related in the last 30 years where the shooter was NOT on/ off some type of mind altering drug. These would be a real rarity.


Aside from raw statistics, reading a few hundred Pre-sentence Investigation Reports will pretty well corroborate what Stercutus said. At least that is my experience. Both the quantitative and qualitative evidence is there.

I don't work with the real baddies. They go to prison. Drugs are a much worse problem with them. But drugs just make people do the most astounding things even when they are not a "bad" population. The amount of child abuse, domestic violence, and general assaults that are linked to drug and alcohol abuse is huge.

Not everyone who use drugs and alcohol are violent. But pretty much all the violent people abuse drugs and alcohol.

_________________
*Remember: I'm just a guy on the internet :)
*Don't go to stupid places with stupid people & do stupid things.
*Be courteous. Look normal. Be in bed by 10'clock.

“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” -Bilbo Baggins.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:35 am 
Offline
* * * * *
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:09 am
Posts: 1978
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 64 times
Not sure where to start so I'll just dive right into the middle. It's usually deepest there and maybe I can avoid a head injury.


I have a fair amount of experience with both "mental health" and firearms. I use quotes with "mental health because I believe that it has become such a broad brush that it is largely useless as anything other than a straw man, much like "gun control". There is a very large book, now in it's 5th edition, that I use occasionally in my profession. Nearly everyone (if not everyone) that I know personally and professionally could be given a diagnosis with that book that falls under the purview or "mental illness" or "mental health".

I can't begin to count the number of people that I know and have met that own one or more firearms. I can count on one hand the number of those people that have shot at another human being outside the commission of their sworn duty to protect others. Out of those, I can count with one finger the number that have shot at another unjustifiably and with malicious intent.

I can't begin to count the number of people that I know that are on one or more psychoactive medication. Lots of those folks on meds could probably do alright with some coping skills and good counseling.The meds are a worksaver, a shortcut. I don't need a wheelbarrow to move a pile of bricks but it's a lot easier that way. A lot of other folks that I know on meds function in society because modern chemistry makes that possible. From both those groups I know a number of people that have had "adverse reactions" to their meds. Most of those were caught quickly and dealt with by changing meds or dosage. I personally don't know anyone who has tried to kill or hurt someone because they were on meds or recently coming off of them, but I do know folks who became delusional and violent because they were off of their meds long enough to decompensate that far.

I will absolutely acknowledge (and personally believe) that psychopharmacology is more akin to alchemy than science, but at this point it seems to work for more people than it harms. I think the link above to John Ringo's facebook post is important. He is absolutely right in pointing out the potential for harm. Pharmaceutical companies and the docs that prescribe these meds need to be better educated about these risks and more open with patients and their families about monitoring changes to emotion and personality. Lots of these meds do things that nobody really understands and they affect some people in pretty bizarre ways sometimes. But, millions of people on psychoactive medications went about their daily lives today, many of them much better off, without killing anyone. Likewise, millions of gun owners, many of whom own bump fire stocks, went about their daily lives today without killing anyone. I know far more people that kept their jobs, didn't get suspended from school or arrested today in part because they are one the right combination of meds, than I know that needed a gun. I don't think it's okay to eliminate access to either because some people are assholes.

A few other thoughts. I think it is a mistake to completely separate religious, political and crazy. It would be more helpful to look at those as sort of a Venn diagram. One can be a religious zealot and cuckoo for cocoa puffs at the same time. Likewise, given the right circumstances, one wouldn't have to be Travis Bickle to get too wound up in support of a political ideology.


As far as the links between drug and alcohol abuse and domestic assault, child abuse etc. Man that's another whole thread in and of itself. I'll just sum up my thoughts by saying that sometimes the symptoms become the cause and it gets really difficult to sort things out after that.


ETA: This article showed up in my facebook feed after I posted my above rant. Much like Ringo's post, I have a few nits to pick, but it's good meat nonetheless. When something goes wrong I think that there are generally several contributing factors rather than a single cause. https://byrslf.co/thoughts-on-the-vegas-shooting-14af397cee2c

_________________
" So, brave knights,
if you do doubt your courage or your strength, come no further,
for death awaits you all with nasty, big, pointy teeth."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:42 am 
Offline
* * * * *
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 16, 2013 3:45 pm
Posts: 2147
Has thanked: 1087 times
Been thanked: 302 times
yossarian wrote:
As far as the links between drug and alcohol abuse and domestic assault, child abuse etc. Man that's another whole thread in and of itself. I'll just sum up my thoughts by saying that sometimes the symptoms become the cause and it gets really difficult to sort things out after that.


That is fair. The causal arrow is often more circular than linear. As friends have said, they start pharmaceuticals to deal with problems, and the drugs and alcohol cause more problems. Which causes more drugs and drinking.

_________________
*Remember: I'm just a guy on the internet :)
*Don't go to stupid places with stupid people & do stupid things.
*Be courteous. Look normal. Be in bed by 10'clock.

“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” -Bilbo Baggins.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:46 am 
Offline
* *
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:14 am
Posts: 108
Location: Central MO
Has thanked: 21 times
Been thanked: 28 times
yossarian wrote:
Not sure where to start so I'll just dive right into the middle. It's usually deepest there and maybe I can avoid a head injury.


I have a fair amount of experience with both "mental health" and firearms. I use quotes with "mental health because I believe that it has become such a broad brush that it is largely useless as anything other than a straw man, much like "gun control". There is a very large book, now in it's 5th edition, that I use occasionally in my profession. Nearly everyone (if not everyone) that I know personally and professionally could be given a diagnosis with that book that falls under the purview or "mental illness" or "mental health".

I can't begin to count the number of people that I know and have met that own one or more firearms. I can count on one hand the number of those people that have shot at another human being outside the commission of their sworn duty to protect others. Out of those, I can count with one finger the number that have shot at another unjustifiably and with malicious intent.

I can't begin to count the number of people that I know that are on one or more psychoactive medication. Lots of those folks on meds could probably do alright with some coping skills and good counseling.The meds are a worksaver, a shortcut. I don't need a wheelbarrow to move a pile of bricks but it's a lot easier that way. A lot of other folks that I know on meds function in society because modern chemistry makes that possible. From both those groups I know a number of people that have had "adverse reactions" to their meds. Most of those were caught quickly and dealt with by changing meds or dosage. I personally don't know anyone who has tried to kill or hurt someone because they were on meds or recently coming off of them, but I do know folks who became delusional and violent because they were off of their meds long enough to decompensate that far.

I will absolutely acknowledge (and personally believe) that psychopharmacology is more akin to alchemy than science, but at this point it seems to work for more people than it harms. I think the link above to John Ringo's facebook post is important. He is absolutely right in pointing out the potential for harm. Pharmaceutical companies and the docs that prescribe these meds need to be better educated about these risks and more open with patients and their families about monitoring changes to emotion and personality. Lots of these meds do things that nobody really understands and they affect some people in pretty bizarre ways sometimes. But, millions of people on psychoactive medications went about their daily lives today, many of them much better off, without killing anyone. Likewise, millions of gun owners, many of whom own bump fire stocks, went about their daily lives today without killing anyone. I know far more people that kept their jobs, didn't get suspended from school or arrested today in part because they are one the right combination of meds, than I know that needed a gun. I don't think it's okay to eliminate access to either because some people are assholes.

A few other thoughts. I think it is a mistake to completely separate religious, political and crazy. It would be more helpful to look at those as sort of a Venn diagram. One can be a religious zealot and cuckoo for cocoa puffs at the same time. Likewise, given the right circumstances, one wouldn't have to be Travis Bickle to get too wound up in support of a political ideology.


As far as the links between drug and alcohol abuse and domestic assault, child abuse etc. Man that's another whole thread in and of itself. I'll just sum up my thoughts by saying that sometimes the symptoms become the cause and it gets really difficult to sort things out after that.


ETA: This article showed up in my facebook feed after I posted my above rant. Much like Ringo's post, I have a few nits to pick, but it's good meat nonetheless. When something goes wrong I think that there are generally several contributing factors rather than a single cause. https://byrslf.co/thoughts-on-the-vegas-shooting-14af397cee2c


As another mental health professional, agreed. And as someone who has seen people get violent off meds and heard stories from other mental health professionals (or people that work in the state asylum near where I live), most of those individuals are likely to become violent suddenly with those in their immediate vicinity and/or loved ones. Not completely ruling out med issues, but unlikely someone reacting to those would be able to put the planning into play this man did. Plus, even whacked out on benzos, you're still sleepy/doped up...they're tranquilizers.

On the same note about the planning involved, there have been a couple of claims on this thread regarding dementia. Yes, dementia can cause magical thinking and delusions, but part of what makes a diagnosis of dementia is that someone is also losing cognitive capabilities like executive functioning, bodily control (starting with things like balance), and impulse control. I am highly doubtful that someone in the process of losing the above functions would be able to plan out an attack in such detail and completely hide it from those around them, including the hotel staff for multiple days.

My best guess if it is related to mental health issues (and, honestly, anyone willing to kill/wound that many civilians for any reason probably has some kind of mental health issue) is a psychotic break or schizophrenia. It would have to be the paranoid type, rather than the disorganized for him to carry out the planning, but someone can still utilize all of their cognitive functioning during a paranoid psychotic break. I would completely lean towards schizophrenia if he was younger, especially with the reports stating his father had severe mental health issues (schizophrenia is more biologically/genetically based than a lot of other mental health issues). However, he is really old for onset, although, to be honest, someone with paranoid schizophrenia can potentially hide their condition for years, especially if they keep to themselves. In fact, I know a couple people who hide it very well from those who aren't close to them.

Not trying to be difficult or beat a dead horse, I just feel really strongly that when people start making mental health claims they should be using correct terms and looking at information on those issues before making them. Case in point, several of the shootings in the past (particularly the Aurora theater shooting) people have stated Autism or Asperger's Syndrome as something that would cause that behavior in and of itself, which is just patently false. Mental illness is still seen frequently as a shameful, pejorative, dangerous thing in this country...when most people with mental illness are much more likely to hurt themselves than others and you probably wouldn't know someone had something like extreme anxiety or depression by seeing them on the street. Okay, I'm getting off my soapbox now...

All this being said, this is just educated conjecture. The sad, hollow truth is that since it does not seem like he was working in conjunction with anyone and this was unlikely to be a political/religious attack, the reason he did it doesn't matter in an investigative sense because it won't change anything. It only matters because it might bring some closure to the incident, although having it be that he was crazy usually is cold comfort to people.

_________________
"When you can't run, you crawl, and when you can't crawl..." "You find someone to carry you."

"She's tore up plenty, but she'll fly true."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:09 am 
Offline
* * * * *
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:31 pm
Posts: 1460
Location: NW Indiana
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 110 times
Quote:
Not trying to be difficult or beat a dead horse, I just feel really strongly that when people start making mental health claims they should be using correct terms and looking at information on those issues before making them. Case in point, several of the shootings in the past (particularly the Aurora theater shooting) people have stated Autism or Asperger's Syndrome as something that would cause that behavior in and of itself, which is just patently false. Mental illness is still seen frequently as a shameful, pejorative, dangerous thing in this country...when most people with mental illness are much more likely to hurt themselves than others and you probably wouldn't know someone had something like extreme anxiety or depression by seeing them on the street. Okay, I'm getting off my soapbox now...

just thought this was worth repeating.

_________________
ZS Wiki


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:26 am 
Offline
* * * * *
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:16 pm
Posts: 11348
Has thanked: 71 times
Been thanked: 574 times
Quote:
I can't begin to count the number of people that I know and have met that own one or more firearms. I can count on one hand the number of those people that have shot at another human being outside the commission of their sworn duty to protect others. Out of those, I can count with one finger the number that have shot at another unjustifiably and with malicious intent.


I am running out of fingers and toes. I am not just talking about people I have come across professionally either, although the numbers really climb when you throw them in there.

Quote:
A few other thoughts. I think it is a mistake to completely separate religious, political and crazy. It would be more helpful to look at those as sort of a Venn diagram. One can be a religious zealot and cuckoo for cocoa puffs at the same time.


Well yes and no. If your religion advocates slaying those who disagree with you or act in a profane manner then to your peers you are as sane as Sunday dinner if you go and slay the apostates. To a non-believer you look nuts. But sure, being religious is no safeguard against mental illness.

woodsghost wrote:
yossarian wrote:
As far as the links between drug and alcohol abuse and domestic assault, child abuse etc. Man that's another whole thread in and of itself. I'll just sum up my thoughts by saying that sometimes the symptoms become the cause and it gets really difficult to sort things out after that.


That is fair. The causal arrow is often more circular than linear. As friends have said, they start pharmaceuticals to deal with problems, and the drugs and alcohol cause more problems. Which causes more drugs and drinking.


Sometimes. Sometimes they just do it because they like it and have opportunity.

Quote:
ETA: This article showed up in my facebook feed after I posted my above rant. Much like Ringo's post, I have a few nits to pick, but it's good meat nonetheless. When something goes wrong I think that there are generally several contributing factors rather than a single cause. https://byrslf.co/thoughts-on-the-vegas ... af397cee2c


I hate to be dismissive up front but when someone starts an article talking about "men" and then uses confused teenagers as the starting example I get confused right away. Then writer then adopted a pet theory about loneliness that does not really seem applicable to the current situation or even to the example cited.

Also the idea that men in the US don't have the opportunity to "play" is ludicrous. With the exception of a few of the wealthier ME countries men in the US are absolutely king of the mountain on the planet for play opportunities.

Quote:
But, millions of people on psychoactive medications went about their daily lives today, many of them much better off, without killing anyone. Likewise, millions of gun owners, many of whom own bump fire stocks, went about their daily lives today without killing anyone. I know far more people that kept their jobs, didn't get suspended from school or arrested today in part because they are one the right combination of meds, than I know that needed a gun. I don't think it's okay to eliminate access to either because some people are assholes.


Don't get me wrong, I don't think banning these meds is the right answer. Hell, banning at this point would likely result in a melt down in our society that would make 28 Days Later look tame by comparison. I do know a number of people that think they should be banned and that number is growing steadily with every shot fired. People love to ban things thinking it will make them disappear and the problem will be solved.

Given the proclivity for things to go wrong and the catastrophic outcomes that occur when things do go wrong I think that there are not enough risk remediation measures in place to help prevent such things from happening. We also do not have strong enough support network and safeguards in our society when things start to leave the rails.


Quote:
All this being said, this is just educated conjecture. The sad, hollow truth is that since it does not seem like he was working in conjunction with anyone and this was unlikely to be a political/religious attack, the reason he did it doesn't matter in an investigative sense because it won't change anything.


With that kind of attitude it likely won't.

_________________
"Big Thanks - I promise to advance your agenda within the secret and omnipotent councils of the Trilateral Commission"

“No-one likes us, we don’t care.”


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:42 am 
Offline
* *
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:14 am
Posts: 108
Location: Central MO
Has thanked: 21 times
Been thanked: 28 times
Quote:
All this being said, this is just educated conjecture. The sad, hollow truth is that since it does not seem like he was working in conjunction with anyone and this was unlikely to be a political/religious attack, the reason he did it doesn't matter in an investigative sense because it won't change anything.


With that kind of attitude it likely won't.[/quote]

What I meant was that debating about what particular kind of mental illness he had really doesn't matter. It doesn't make anything better or bring any more comfort if it is a psychotic break, schizophrenia, etc. Especially if outlier examples like this are used to make claims about people with mental illness as a whole, such as being dangerous, being likely to snap, or unable to function in society. Most people with mental illness do well enough and are no danger to others, just like most people that own guns do well enough and are no danger to others (at least those who are not threatening them). What matters more is looking at mental health in this country as a whole, the lack of support for it, how people with mental illnesses are treated, etc.

Unfortunately, what seems to happen in a lot of these situations when people and the media start talking about the mental health angle is that they are more focused on finding a boogeyman to blame for what happened than coming up with solutions.

I could really go on about this pretty much forever, but had cut my original post off before it went too far into soapbox territory. :D

_________________
"When you can't run, you crawl, and when you can't crawl..." "You find someone to carry you."

"She's tore up plenty, but she'll fly true."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:16 am 
Offline
* * * * *
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2013 12:30 am
Posts: 1673
Has thanked: 241 times
Been thanked: 373 times
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/vegas-shooters-girlfriend-says-he-would-lie-in-bed-moaning-screaming/ar-AAsXsfB?li=BBnb7Kz

In other news the note found next to his body is not a suicide note and does not offer any clues to why he did this. It is largely, numerical

_________________
As of now I bet you got me wrong


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:10 am 
Offline
* * * * *
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:09 am
Posts: 1978
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 64 times
Stercutus wrote:
Quote:

Quote:
ETA: This article showed up in my facebook feed after I posted my above rant. Much like Ringo's post, I have a few nits to pick, but it's good meat nonetheless. When something goes wrong I think that there are generally several contributing factors rather than a single cause. https://byrslf.co/thoughts-on-the-vegas ... af397cee2c


I hate to be dismissive up front but when someone starts an article talking about "men" and then uses confused teenagers as the starting example I get confused right away. Then writer then adopted a pet theory about loneliness that does not really seem applicable to the current situation or even to the example cited.

Also the idea that men in the US don't have the opportunity to "play" is ludicrous. With the exception of a few of the wealthier ME countries men in the US are absolutely king of the mountain on the planet for play opportunities.



The language of the article can certainly be off putting. I'm used to sifting through that sort of chaff though. The meat of it is that constant attempts to protect children, especially boys, from this terrible malady called childhood is producing teenagers and men that have no idea how to face adversity or interact with other humans in meatspace. Bloody noses and a lack of adult supervision turns children into adults that are better able to cope for themselves, learn who and how to trust and face adversity. Pee wee soccer and X-box live are not adequate substitutions.

You can have hundreds of Facebook friends and still not have anyone you really trust. You can have a "man cave" ( I hate that term) filled with big boy toys and enough vacation time to play with them all, and still feel empty. Maybe this applies to the a-hole in Vegas, maybe not. I have seen some reports that say he stuck to slot machines and avoided people but at this point there is a lot of BS out there too.

In a broader context, if you couple it with the salient points from the John Ringo post linked above you have a growing number of people that don't have anyone to trust when they don't trust themselves. They don't have the coping skills or the relationships to say "Hey, I'm not okay over here. Something is wrong". Fear and loneliness can lead to some pretty dark and scary places. Most people only hurt themselves and/or the ones closest too them when they go to those places. Others try to hurt as many as they can.


The irony of the article that I posted is that it was written to appeal to a profession that is in large part responsible for pushing the changes that have lead to the problems addressed by the article and written in such a way that they (we) can pretend that it was their (our) idea in the first place.

_________________
" So, brave knights,
if you do doubt your courage or your strength, come no further,
for death awaits you all with nasty, big, pointy teeth."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 11:39 am 
Offline
* * * * *
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:16 pm
Posts: 11348
Has thanked: 71 times
Been thanked: 574 times
Quote:
The language of the article can certainly be off putting. I'm used to sifting through that sort of chaff though. The meat of it is that constant attempts to protect children, especially boys, from this terrible malady called childhood is producing teenagers and men that have no idea how to face adversity or interact with other humans in meatspace.


The last shooter was 63. I imagine he had a different childhood then kids growing up today.

I do disagree with a lot of modern parenting techniques. We didn't do the "every kid is a special snowflake" at my house. We did real work for real rewards, goal setting and parental advice not helicoptering. This may have been a contributing cause as to why my kids have been really successful so far. Don't know. But i don't think coddling produces mass shooters, immature adults sure, but not necessarily violent ones.

Another thing often over looked by the media is that nearly all of the shooters have been middle to upper middle class at some point in their life.

_________________
"Big Thanks - I promise to advance your agenda within the secret and omnipotent councils of the Trilateral Commission"

“No-one likes us, we don’t care.”


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:05 pm 
Offline
* * * * *
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2013 12:30 am
Posts: 1673
Has thanked: 241 times
Been thanked: 373 times
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/new-details-about-note-found-in-vegas-shooters-hotel-room/ar-AAt25ud?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartanntp

A note found in the hotel room of the man who shot into a crowd from his perch in a Las Vegas high-rise included hand-written calculations about where he needed to aim to maximize his accuracy and kill as many people as possible

_________________
As of now I bet you got me wrong


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 103 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group