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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:16 am 
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Gonna be hard to keep this one apolitical, but we can try...

http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/14/politics/ ... index.html

Lots of lessons to be learned here, not the least of which is the hard target vs. soft target discussion as well as the actions of the protective detail engagement: Long arm vs. pistol, and trained shooter vs. unknown level of experience discussions.

It'll be interesting to learn how many shots were actually fired...and from what firearms.

Secondary effects based on commentary from the political class should be interesting. Happy to see folks acknowledging that the protective detail and responding police being armed saved lives. I'm innoculated from any knee-jerk reactions from talking head induced panic buying, but now may be a good time to consider your personal firearm related preps.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:28 am 
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91Eunozs wrote:

It'll be interesting to learn how many shots were actually fired...and from what firearms.



Radio reporter this morning who was interviewing one of the Reps. that was there said 50+ shots fired from both sides combined. It also seems clear that at minimum there was a rifle on the scene.

Has anyone been confirmed to have been killed? I hate to speculate, but it seems possible it was just a .22 rifle with all of the non-life threatening wounds. There certainly was the opportunity for much, much more devastation.

ETA: http://www.latimes.com/politics/washington/la-na-essential-washington-updates-shooting-reported-at-gop-baseball-1497442200-htmlstory.html
Quote:
The gunman, a white man with dark hair and wearing a blue shirt, could be seen standing with a rifle as he began shooting, Flake said. "Fifty would be an understatement," Flake said, referring to the number of shots.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:42 am 
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The shooter is dead. I am also purposely omitting the scumbag's name.

This was basically a political based hate crime and the shooter specifically sought to target exclusively members of one political party, which to avoid the no politics rule I will not state.

This is a link to the story with details about the shooter.
He was a rabid hater of the targeted party and anyone who disagreed with his politics.

Be aware, politics at this link and thus I am not quoting it:
http://www.bnd.com/news/local/article156065789.html

This story is inherently political and we need to be careful to discuss only the events, relevant preparations/planning related to the event and not the politics which is the source of this event. If you would avoid using party names/ideologies that would be useful to help keep this topic open.

That said none of us should be surprised that this event happened.

The vitrol, anger and hatred publically expressed on the various social media should provide everyone with insight into the mood of a certain element of society. You can see the rejoicing and dancing with joy in the street over this event by some of the population for yourself and draw your own conclusions.

That anger and intolerance you see exhibited on social media likely played some part in this event. It has not gone away.

I say this for the Capt Obvious reason that we should all be aware of this anger and make take appropriate preparations to deal with what is likely to be a long, hot and violent summer.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:16 pm 
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Lessons-

The security was to relaxed- part of the story is that the 'survivors' were frantically fleeing the scene and invited to take refuge in the home of a 'Good Samaritan'. That could have easily led to a hostage situation- I'm surprised that the baseball field was not more secure and the survivors not better trained on how to respond to an emergency like this.

Another lesson- and this may be going to far. If you are going to shoot someone in a situation that will almost certainly result in you ending your life via SBC almost immediately. At least learn how to shoot.

Shooter is a scumbag for his act, and a failure.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:38 pm 
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Whelp, this isn't going to make anything better.

I was expecting senseless violence to spring up, but couldn't have said what form it was going to take or even from which side it was going to come first.

Just speculating, but since it seems like the actions of a loaner I wouldn't expect direct retaliation, but this could certainly be used as justification or motivation for further senseless violence.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:50 pm 
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MORANS today.

Since I have a family member scheduled to attend the big game it makes me think the security will be a bit better; and, thankfully, to consider that this moron didn't wait for a larger crowd. Hope those hurt heal.
I suppose that for morons the ever-increasing binary reasoning being used today makes their hatred that much stronger. The things that are zero sum, either this or that seem to be increasing at a rate at least equal to the amount of choices available. This does not compute.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 1:23 pm 
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I think I'll add a tourniquet to my EDC and be sure I know how to use it properly.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 1:45 pm 
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dogbane wrote:
I think I'll add a tourniquet to my EDC and be sure I know how to use it properly.


Reportedly my congressman rep used his belt for a tourniquet to treat one of the wounded.

Our agency added TQ's to our daily carry last year at the urging of a number of veterans that work there. Most of the vets were already carrying one, in fact I carry one on me and two in the car.

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thankfully, to consider that this moron didn't wait for a larger crowd. Hope those hurt heal.


One of the players who left early stated that the shooter asked him who was practicing. He told him so we can only assume he was targeting these. The survivors guilt will likely haunt him the rest of his days.


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Just speculating, but since it seems like the actions of a loaner I wouldn't expect direct retaliation, but this could certainly be used as justification or motivation for further senseless violence.


People don't need justification for violence. They can usually come up with whatever strikes their fancy. In a civilized society however these events usually result in less violence not more. This makes me wonder how civilized we really are:

Quote:
The vitrol, anger and hatred publically expressed on the various social media should provide everyone with insight into the mood of a certain element of society. You can see the rejoicing and dancing with joy in the street over this event by some of the population for yourself and draw your own conclusions.

That anger and intolerance you see exhibited on social media likely played some part in this event. It has not gone away.


Political assignations are somewhat of a rarity in the US. But the media, since the beginning of the last election cycle, has really gotten people stoked. By "the media" I mean all of it. There are practically no innocent parties there.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 1:56 pm 
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Stercutus wrote:
Quote:
Just speculating, but since it seems like the actions of a loaner I wouldn't expect direct retaliation, but this could certainly be used as justification or motivation for further senseless violence.


People don't need justification for violence. They can usually come up with whatever strikes their fancy. In a civilized society however these events usually result in less violence not more. This makes me wonder how civilized we really are:



Certainly we aren't talking about rational cause and affect here, I've just noticed a trend that both sides seem to be paying more attention to what the other side is up too then normal, especially the rival protest groups. Reddit is turning out to be a surprisingly open source of info on the mindset of the different groups, Alt Right, Antifa and everyone in between have their own subreddits and watching both can help keep a finger on the pulse. I will certainly be checking in today and see how the different groups are reacting.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:03 pm 
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RonnyRonin wrote:
Stercutus wrote:
Quote:
Just speculating, but since it seems like the actions of a loaner I wouldn't expect direct retaliation, but this could certainly be used as justification or motivation for further senseless violence.


People don't need justification for violence. They can usually come up with whatever strikes their fancy. In a civilized society however these events usually result in less violence not more. This makes me wonder how civilized we really are:



Certainly we aren't talking about rational cause and affect here, I've just noticed a trend that both sides seem to be paying more attention to what the other side is up too then normal, especially the rival protest groups. Reddit is turning out to be a surprisingly open source of info on the mindset of the different groups, Alt Right, Antifa and everyone in between have their own subreddits and watching both can help keep a finger on the pulse. I will certainly be checking in today and see how the different groups are reacting.


Like most forums Reddit is easily compromised and influenced. It is a little tougher to mislead the group directly but subtle misleading are not a real challenge.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:23 pm 
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On a "lessons learned" note when the police showed up they tried to get him to drop the weapon. Someone hiding in the dugout shouted "just shoot him". In this case the police were wrong and dude in the dugout was right. Standard protocol for nearly all LEAs is in mass shooting event to kill the attacker(s) as quickly as possible.

In the time it takes you to attempt to get a mass shooter to drop a weapon he could easily kill several more people. He has already shown a deranged regard towards the lives of those around him/ her and won't stop until he is killed, kills himself or runs dry. If he still has a weapon when you make contact than you are normally 100% justified in killing the shooter (note that this not legal advice, merely standard policy at most LEA's).

The media posted a cell phone video from the shooting. It is hard to tell from the poor quality audio but it does not sound like a .22lr. More like a low power .30 caliber. Tough to tell the audio quality is not good.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:53 pm 
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Stercutus wrote:

The media posted a cell phone video from the shooting. It is hard to tell from the poor quality audio but it does not sound like a .22lr. More like a low power .30 caliber. Tough to tell the audio quality is not good.


I listened to it briefly now as well - definitely not a .22. All the more shocking the devastation was limited to what it was - thankfully.

No one has died to this point aside from the moron shooter, have they?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:02 pm 
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00dlez wrote:
Stercutus wrote:

The media posted a cell phone video from the shooting. It is hard to tell from the poor quality audio but it does not sound like a .22lr. More like a low power .30 caliber. Tough to tell the audio quality is not good.


I listened to it briefly now as well - definitely not a .22. All the more shocking the devastation was limited to what it was - thankfully.

No one has died to this point aside from the moron shooter, have they?



It is looking like everyone worth saving is going to make it.

Some of the players had their kids out there as well.

It really could have been much worse.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:20 pm 
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Link to a cell phone video rather embed in case some would rather not see it - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qrFO9oXsqM

I only post it because I think there is something VERY important to discuss around the 40 second mark...

Quote:
"Are you calling 911?"
"I assume people have been calling 911 already"


BAD ASSUMPTION. You can't have too many people calling 911! The unfortunately famous case of Kitty Genovese and the "bystander effect" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kitty_Genovese have shown that everyone can just assume someone else is calling... and then no one at all calls. This is why in first aid and CPR courses they tell you to first single someone out, point/get their attention, and say "YOU CALL 911".

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:30 pm 
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Good advice.

Call 911, then video the crime. In this case the response was rapid and effective.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:47 pm 
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00dlez wrote:
Link to a cell phone video rather embed in case some would rather not see it - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qrFO9oXsqM


about 1:51 I heard a round go by the cellphone guy

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 6:15 pm 
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One of the the witnesses stated that the police engaged the shooter with pistols from 90-120 feet away. They were both wounded but took out the shooter. I think we have an answer there so far as being a shoot/ dont shoot scenario.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 6:37 pm 
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Several news reports said the LEOs responding first were Steve Scalise's security detail. Scalise is the House Whip and also my representative.

They were on the scene apparently when the incident occurred.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 6:40 pm 
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Watched the cell phone vid - thanks for posting. Nasty sh*t that.

Lessons for me re-enforced.

1. On hearing gunshots - get the f*ck flat! This is why I now wear shirts with no buttons...
2.. Seek good cover!
3. If you can determine the location of the shooter, unass the AO as fast as you can - if that means you low crawl in your Brooks Brothers suit - fine. You can always get another suit, your ass is hard to replace.
4. Let some other dumb SOB take a video, you need MUST cover, move, exit.
5. After you are covered or are known to be safe, call 911, pass on what you can.

A late #6 - IF you can do so safely, provide aid to the wounded.

The anti-gunner crowd will be in full howl tonight.....

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 6:53 pm 
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Good points TacAir.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 8:01 pm 
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There seems to be a disconnect in one regard; the perp has a DV incident from 2006 that had it occurred in NYS would have invited a mandatory police raid on his house to remove any and all firearms.
A further issue stems from charges from that incident being dropped due to the victim's missed court date but that's up to Illinois DAO and Criminal Court system.

Another issue I have is a long running one I have with fully deputized and sworn LEOs not being equipped and trained with rifles for just this kind of event. Years back I used to be a Designated Hitter for my department but only trotted out for Presidential level occasions. Only very recently has NYPD put out about a thousand officers with Colt 6944s, plate carriers and MICHs.

Would have been nice to have another LEO over the announcers box with a PA 1-6x24 ACSS on a suitable patrol rifle and a department radio from Alexandria PD. Sounds crazy, but maybe not so much now.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:18 pm 
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Two young guys I work with, one an ultra-conservative and the other a Bernie Sanders supporter, started getting into it this morning with a cause-and-effect argument that quickly turned rancorous.

I told them both to STFU, rather heatedly. Which startled them, because I'm senior to them and usually stay aloof from their constant political bickering, carried out face to face as well as on social media. What an idiotic waste of time.

Then I told them my personal credo, refined by some hard life lessons that I'd rather not see them have to learn the way I did. Namely, strive not to damage anyone and make a sincere effort not to needlessly alienate or antagonize people, bear each others' burdens when you can, and try to treat everyone you meet with basic dignity and respect, even when it's not always easy. Try to show grace toward people who sometimes let you down or make mistakes. Try to understand their point of view and develop common ground and empathy.

We have next to no ability to affect the larger picture, but within our own sphere we should be doing what we can to not to aggravate or feed the negative trends going on in our society, and to bring up kids to understand the importance of reason, restraint, and The Golden Rule.

Later the conservative guy told me privately that he fears a civil war is coming. I told him that if both sides go on treating each other with hatred and contempt, things could go down that path. Which makes it paramount for each individual to do some soul-searching and figure out if they're going to be part of the problem or part of the solution.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:52 pm 
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Boo Randy wrote:
strive not to damage anyone and make a sincere effort not to needlessly alienate or antagonize people, bear each others' burdens when you can, and try to treat everyone you meet with basic dignity and respect, even when it's not always easy. Try to show grace toward people who sometimes let you down or make mistakes. Try to understand their point of view and develop common ground and empathy.

Damn; that's it, isn't it? Lately people seem to self identify to a fault in terms of world view and political leanings. Further discussion of which edges close to some of the ZS forum prohibitions. Suffice it to say that I have friends on both sides of political spectrum and those on either extreme are equally bad in that they allow tribalism to outweigh basic human decency and good sense. I'm not so naive as to believe that pointing this out will alleviate the problem. Only that we as preppers can try not to be part of the problem. I do fear we are entering a time of real civil strife. My plan is to lay low and if worse comes to worst, I'm willing to help anyone I can, regardless of political allegiance. Just as long as they can remember we're all human beings, all countrymen.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:22 pm 
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Basic courtesy does go a long way in keeping the peace. Calling somebody a nazi, thug, libtard, traitor, pathetic, or calling for their expulsion, persecution, lynching, incarceration, etc. is not conducive to keeping a nation together.

Unless our nation in general, and our elected leaders, public figures, and pundits(!!!!!!) in particular, can get their collective heads screwed firmly back on and back the eff off the polemics, we're done. It's over. Our time as a superpower is past.

As far as assuming someone called 911. Don't. I was involved in a motorcycle crash a couple of years back. A H/D clipped the car behind me and tumbled. I was the one told to call 911. While I was on hold waiting of the operator, I took a gander at the others there. There were one or two people caring for the rider. One of who had told me to call 911. Nurses, I'd have to guess, by their demeanor. One guy directing traffic around us. An uninvolved doofus videoing the whole thing with his cell phone. And, three or four people standing around slack jawed. If one of the nurses hadn't told me to call 911, I don't think anybody would have.


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