NEW LONDON ATTACKS

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Re: NEW LONDON ATTACKS

Post by flybynight » Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:33 am

http://www.judicialselection.com/judici ... .cfm?state



http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2543298/posts

And at this point I do need to point out that it's not elected or appointed members of government being targeted by the terrorists.
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Re: NEW LONDON ATTACKS

Post by Stercutus » Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:02 pm

flybynight wrote:http://www.judicialselection.com/judici ... .cfm?state



http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2543298/posts

And at this point I do need to point out that it's not elected or appointed members of government being targeted by the terrorists.
You are missing the point of terrorism. They are trying to make you afraid. Killing members of congress might simply result in cheers given how unpopular they are right now for example.

When I served in Iraq most of the judges were in hiding. If a judge issued a warrant for a bona-fide terrorist he was immediately marked for death. Part of the reason we have secret courts in the US now is for the same reason. I won't get started on secret courts but it does provide some measure of protection.
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Re: NEW LONDON ATTACKS

Post by raptor » Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:14 pm

Beowolf wrote:
raptor wrote:[snip]... a general understanding of evil, in that if it was given a chance it would kill everyone and every thing we cherish.
Against my better judgment, I'm responding.

If the quote above is read in the context of this WWII veteran's insistence upon brutality, then, indeed, what he is calling for is to do to evil what evil would do to you. The dropping of two atomic bombs did exactly this--it was a wilful disregard of a culture's non-combatants and annihilated them as if they were the ones who dropped the bombs years before. I would call that brutality.
A better analogy would have been the unrestricted fire bombing on Japanese cities by the US and the general carpet bombing of European cities by the allies. Both of these were far more indiscriminate and killed more civilians that the two cities nuked. These nuked cities were sites for important military and industrial facilities that directly supported the war effort and hence legitimate military targets albeit there was a clear intent to disregard civilian casualties.
Beowolf wrote: If the solution to brutality is brutality, someone just pull the trigger already. If it's not...well, maybe it's time to think differently. Note the vast majority of terroristic attacks for which ISIS has claimed credit had little instruction or guidance from ISIS as a group. Perhaps the solution should be focused on how to keep these disconnected people from falling into a willingness to perform brutality.
That said I think the analogy between the Imperial Japanese war machine (‘IJA/IJN”) and ISIS actually have some similarities beside the propensity to behead and/or bayonet military captives and civilian men women and children who prove to be both inconvenient and in their care custody and control.

The IJA/IJN really made no distinctions between combatants and non-combatants. They were all treated basically the same. If they were useful they were used until they were not needed or proved to be useless. If they were useless they were simply eliminated. All you have to do is look at China and Korea for proof of this.

This concept of brutally towards non-combatants is not new or even unique to the IJA/IJN or ISIS. The instances of this thought process can be found in the oldest recorded history of human conflict. Killing civilians, burning their structures, stealing their property and even salting their agricultural fields is depressingly common throughout history. I could list them but it would be a very long list.
Here was my point though.

There are people in this world who for their own reasons want to see you, me and millions of others dead. It makes no difference what you tell them, what you give them or agree to give them, unless of course you are willing to give up everything you have including your life, the lives of your spouse, children, parents, friends, et.al.; they will not be satisfied. They desire your extinction.

These people have existed in the past and will exist in the future. This is the same mentality of the people who would have seen to it that my Jewish wife never existed. This is the same mentality of people who wanted (among many others) the Tutsis, Cambodian intelligencia, Armenians, Huguenots and even Tree Sparrows dead.

The simple unfortunate fact is that logic and reason will not work when it comes to people with such a mindset. It is nice to think “Yes, lets all be friends and get along” will work. In fairness in some cases it may work, but unfortunately when it does not, the results are unpleasant.

So that comes around to what do you do when that is clear the “lets get along” approach will not work?

We have two choices (albeit with some variations):
1. Willingly allow yourself to be destroyed or controlled.
This choice is simple do nothing and all your problems are solved for you whether or not you agree with the solution, the solution will be final(double entendres intended).

2. Engage in self defense.
If you chose to stand and defend yourself, you must be prepared to do whatever is necessary to win. History has many examples of what frequently is “necessary”. If you do not have the ability for whatever reason, you should ask yourself this simple question. Do I deserve to perpetuate myself. If you answer yes, then acquire the ability that you lack. If the answer is no, then see option #1.
Beowolf wrote: ISIS isn't a snake. Cutting off its head won't kill it. Other heads pop up. A concerted effort needs to be effected across the globe that reaches out to those who have been tempted to do brutality and convince them they are wrong.
No ISIS is not a snake. Snakes are useful, even venomous ones serve a purpose in nature.

This brings me back to IJA/IJA analogy; by using the analogy of kamikaze attacks and the response to them. The greatest generation dealt with these attacks not with Psy Ops, (i.e. convincing them that suicide attacks were wrong) but rather by adding many more anti-aircraft cannons to war ships and increasing flying CAPs to intercept and shoot them down. They also attacked them on the ground as well as in the air as well as the industry that made the attacks possible including the population that supported the industry In short they destroyed them any way they could.

There does indeed need to be a world wide effort to reach out to dissuade those intent on violence.
I agree the approaches we have used to date have not been very effective. We do need to change the approach.

The question is exactly what form of persuasion is used. The greatest generation gave us one very effective model to follow for those who do not respond to reason.
Stercutus wrote: And at this point I do need to point out that it's not elected or appointed members of government being targeted by the terrorists.
It is a basic and simple example of asymmetric warfare. We are at war. Whether or not we agree with it, want it or even just want to get along and not fight. This group is at war with us and we disregard this fact at our peril.

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Re: NEW LONDON ATTACKS

Post by woodsghost » Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:59 pm

Just my thorny opinion:

These people exist because certain governments and families have poured money into growing and nurturing them into existence. Frankly I think they need to pour their own blood and treasure into defeating these folks.

Those who did not create them need not invite them into their homes. There are good people from the region. I work with a number of them. There are ways to better control who comes across the borders. For some reason not everyone in America or the various European countries are interested in those methods.

I think some folks have reaped a benefit from fomenting hate against certain ethnic groups and certain counties. That hate now threatens the continued existence of those folks. I think we need to let them fix it themselves and learn the lesson of irresponsibly fomenting hatred, or let them succumb to their own creation. If the hateful manage to wipe out a few governments, they will have to form a government structure to manage the territory and people they have acquired. At that point there is a snake with a head and that can be dealt with. If the government's prevail, maybe they will learn a lesson.

Honestly, I think we need more stories and more images of what the hateful do. I think the "moderates" need to see for themselves what others are willing to do and decide for themselves if they will allow that to continue or not. In my fantasies I would love to see government support for some equivalent of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade of the Spanish Civil War.
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Re: NEW LONDON ATTACKS

Post by raptor » Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:25 pm

The ID of two of the London attackers:


http://news.met.police.uk/news/statemen ... eec87537c6

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Re: NEW LONDON ATTACKS

Post by Stercutus » Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:32 pm

I didn't look, were they Jehovah Witness from Ohio or Anglicans from Manchester?

:roll:
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Re: NEW LONDON ATTACKS

Post by raptor » Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:50 pm

Stercutus wrote:I didn't look, were they Jehovah Witness from Ohio or Anglicans from Manchester?

:roll:

The link does not say, but it does say they are "good" jihadis now.

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Re: NEW LONDON ATTACKS

Post by teotwaki » Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:52 pm

woodsghost wrote:Honestly, I think we need more stories and more images of what the hateful do. I think the "moderates" need to see for themselves what others are willing to do and decide for themselves if they will allow that to continue or not.
We could start by making the 9-11 videos required viewing in schools instead of pretending it is something to forget



Then follow up with all of the videotaped beheadings.
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Re: NEW LONDON ATTACKS

Post by woodsghost » Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:11 pm

teotwaki wrote:
woodsghost wrote:Honestly, I think we need more stories and more images of what the hateful do. I think the "moderates" need to see for themselves what others are willing to do and decide for themselves if they will allow that to continue or not.
We could start by making the 9-11 videos required viewing in schools instead of pretending it is something to forget


Then follow up with all of the videotaped beheadings.
I think you are right. Further, I think there needs to be a separation of "right" from "wrong." "Relativism" has no place in a world with evil.

I also think we need an ethic of "activism." If there is something wrong, we do something about it, within the boundaries of the law. Though to get slightly political; people simply disagreeing with me is not "grounds for a riot."

I think school aged children need to know what evil is and how much of it is out there in the world.

On British and American politics; I think people need to take personal responsibility for their own security. However, governments don't ask me to weigh in with my opinions.
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Re: NEW LONDON ATTACKS

Post by Stercutus » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:04 pm

raptor wrote:
Stercutus wrote: And at this point I do need to point out that it's not elected or appointed members of government being targeted by the terrorists.
It is a basic and simple example of asymmetric warfare. We are at war. Whether or not we agree with it, want it or even just want to get along and not fight. This group is at war with us and we disregard this fact at our peril.
That wasn't me.
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Re: NEW LONDON ATTACKS

Post by Stercutus » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:16 pm

There does indeed need to be a world wide effort to reach out to dissuade those intent on violence.
I agree the approaches we have used to date have not been very effective. We do need to change the approach.
If you come up with something new let me know. I spent 6 years of my life trying to crack that Easter Egg open and never got there.

I can tell you it is not Islam in general that is the problem. It is the groups that exploit the pointedly splitting psychology of their doctrine to increase personal power that cause the problems. I have worked as closely with hundreds of Muslims as anyone you like have ever known and most are a lot like everyone else. But a more than a few are unlike practically everyone in Western society.
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Re: NEW LONDON ATTACKS

Post by flybynight » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:19 pm

Stercutus wrote:
And at this point I do need to point out that it's not elected or appointed members of government being targeted by the terrorists.


It is a basic and simple example of asymmetric warfare. We are at war. Whether or not we agree with it, want it or even just want to get along and not fight. This group is at war with us and we disregard this fact at our peril.
Actually that was me. My point is it's easier to claim the higher ground morally . To cry with great conviction that this is not acceptable based on the civil rights granted by our countries laws, when it's someone else with the tip of the sword against their throat.
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Re: NEW LONDON ATTACKS

Post by Stercutus » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:32 pm

flybynight wrote:
Stercutus wrote:
And at this point I do need to point out that it's not elected or appointed members of government being targeted by the terrorists.


It is a basic and simple example of asymmetric warfare. We are at war. Whether or not we agree with it, want it or even just want to get along and not fight. This group is at war with us and we disregard this fact at our peril.
Actually that was me. My point is it's easier to claim the higher ground morally . To cry with great conviction that this is not acceptable based on the civil rights granted by our countries laws, when it's someone else with the tip of the sword against their throat.
Those who live on mountain tops generally don't worry about how high the tide rises
The US has engaged openly in thousands of extra-judicial killings since 9/11. At this point anyone bringing up civil rights is either new to the party, a lost voice in the wind or a hypocrite.
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be rememberèd—
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother

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Re: NEW LONDON ATTACKS

Post by raptor » Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:25 pm

flybynight wrote:
Stercutus flybynight wrote:
And at this point I do need to point out that it's not elected or appointed members of government being targeted by the terrorists.


It is a basic and simple example of asymmetric warfare. We are at war. Whether or not we agree with it, want it or even just want to get along and not fight. This group is at war with us and we disregard this fact at our peril.
Actually that was me. My point is it's easier to claim the higher ground morally . To cry with great conviction that this is not acceptable based on the civil rights granted by our countries laws, when it's someone else with the tip of the sword against their throat.
Those who live on mountain tops generally don't worry about how high the tide rises
Sorry my mistake in editing.


The simple point I was making with this is that they are for the most part not hitting "legitimate" military targets. They are fighting a war against the softest target possible. Certain people stand up and say "We are not at war with (fill in the blank)". That person may be right, we may not be at war, but certain groups are waging war against us. Ignoring this fact is foolish.

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Re: NEW LONDON ATTACKS

Post by flybynight » Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:41 pm

raptor wrote:
flybynight wrote:
Stercutus flybynight wrote:
And at this point I do need to point out that it's not elected or appointed members of government being targeted by the terrorists.


It is a basic and simple example of asymmetric warfare. We are at war. Whether or not we agree with it, want it or even just want to get along and not fight. This group is at war with us and we disregard this fact at our peril.
Actually that was me. My point is it's easier to claim the higher ground morally . To cry with great conviction that this is not acceptable based on the civil rights granted by our countries laws, when it's someone else with the tip of the sword against their throat.
Those who live on mountain tops generally don't worry about how high the tide rises
Sorry my mistake in editing.


The simple point I was making with this is that they are for the most part not hitting "legitimate" military targets. They are fighting a war against the softest target possible. Certain people stand up and say "We are not at war with (fill in the blank)". That person may be right, we may not be at war, but certain groups are waging war against us. Ignoring this fact is foolish.
exactly
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Re: NEW LONDON ATTACKS

Post by Stercutus » Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:03 pm

There may be more going on there than you are aware of. There can never be enough of course.
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Re: NEW LONDON ATTACKS

Post by the_alias » Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:30 am

Some video of the moment the Police shot the terrorists.

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Re: NEW LONDON ATTACKS

Post by teotwaki » Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:20 am

the_alias wrote:Some video of the moment the Police shot the terrorists.
THANKS! Damned snowflake media never shares this stuff
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Re: NEW LONDON ATTACKS

Post by flybynight » Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:47 am

Good work Constables . :clap: :clap: :clap:
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Re: NEW LONDON ATTACKS

Post by Stercutus » Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:08 am

I am thinking the British equivalent to "hold my beer". He said he was 4-5 pints in to his cups. Still took some serious balls. I probably would have at least grabbed a chair, free handing in a knife fight is bad ju-ju.

http://www.independent.co.uk/News/uk/ho ... 75246.html
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Re: NEW LONDON ATTACKS

Post by teotwaki » Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:31 am

Stercutus wrote:I am thinking the British equivalent to "hold my beer". He said he was 4-5 pints in to his cups. Still took some serious balls. I probably would have at least grabbed a chair, free handing in a knife fight is bad ju-ju.

http://www.independent.co.uk/News/uk/ho ... 75246.html

In the US the news article would read:

"Drunken UK football hooligan from Millwall attacks peaceful Muslim soccer fans seeking quiet meal in restaurant"

:mrgreen:
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Re: NEW LONDON ATTACKS

Post by TacAir » Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:17 am

Stercutus wrote:I am thinking the British equivalent to "hold my beer". He said he was 4-5 pints in to his cups. Still took some serious balls. I probably would have at least grabbed a chair, free handing in a knife fight is bad ju-ju.

http://www.independent.co.uk/News/uk/ho ... 75246.html
Gotta wonder what the outcome would have been if a dozen Millwall hooligans went after at the *astards with pool ques, broken bottles and made a real fight of it -- swarming the SOBs.

"Drunken mob kills Terrs. Hooligans 3, Terrs - not so much" The sort of headlines that could happen but never do....
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Re: NEW LONDON ATTACKS

Post by Stercutus » Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:29 pm

TacAir wrote:
Stercutus wrote:I am thinking the British equivalent to "hold my beer". He said he was 4-5 pints in to his cups. Still took some serious balls. I probably would have at least grabbed a chair, free handing in a knife fight is bad ju-ju.

http://www.independent.co.uk/News/uk/ho ... 75246.html
Gotta wonder what the outcome would have been if a dozen Millwall hooligans went after at the *astards with pool ques, broken bottles and made a real fight of it -- swarming the SOBs.

"Drunken mob kills Terrs. Hooligans 3, Terrs - not so much" The sort of headlines that could happen but never do....
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
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Re: NEW LONDON ATTACKS

Post by flybynight » Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:37 am

http://www.wral.com/emergency-workers-i ... /17000994/

LONDON — London police say emergency services are outside the Natural History Museum in London after a car struck pedestrians. Police say a number of people have been injured and one person has been detained at the scene.

The crash happened at 2:20 p.m. on a day when the central London museum is usually teeming with pedestrians including international tourists. Photographs showed a dented silver car and a man being pinned to the ground outside the museum.

Police said Saturday they are working to establish the circumstances and the cause.

The London Ambulance Service was responding to the incident.

Police said more details would be released later. There was no immediate statement on the number or severity of the injuries.

ETA.......... DETERMINED TO NOT BE TERRORIST RELATED
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