Explosions at Manchester Arena

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Re: Explosions at Manchester Arena

Post by Hiroshima_Morphine » Wed May 24, 2017 12:21 pm

Hokicake wrote:Well entry's and exits need to be watched who are these security people and how are they trained. People need to start hiring military vets to keep people safe the right way.
I don't necessarily disagree with that- but here is my counter point.

If you hire more security personnel who are properly trained and working for more than minimum wage, your expenses go up (exponentially I would assume).

When expenses go up, so must revenue.

It is simple economics.

In plain English- the $50 seat becomes a $100 seat and the artist, label and promoter still have to take a smaller cut. Neither the patron or the performers will want that change.

So what next, use the local police? Taxes go up. And using public funds for a private security force at a private venue is wrong anyway.
Hokicake wrote:does security not look for bombs? you would think in this day that's what people would be doing. Especially at any big event it really needs to be treated like the president is going to attend.
That is never going to happen. The cost of that type of security on a large scale? I cannot even fathom. All life is precious- I believe that to my core. But in the real world, some lives are more valuable. Right, wrong or indifferent, that is just the way it is.

Solution? Is there one?
Bad things happen.
Bad people exist.
Always have.
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For me and my family, situational awareness and avoiding crowds seem to work. That has been my philosophy ever since I survived this
Last edited by Hiroshima_Morphine on Wed May 24, 2017 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Explosions at Manchester Arena

Post by Hokicake » Wed May 24, 2017 1:03 pm

well then their security need good military style training then and they need people who will take it seriously and not get complacent but that's a lot harder to get from a civilian that's why there needs to be ex military that have the discipline.

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Re: Explosions at Manchester Arena

Post by Stercutus » Wed May 24, 2017 2:10 pm

teotwaki wrote: Murderer [of Children]
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Re: Explosions at Manchester Arena

Post by teotwaki » Wed May 24, 2017 4:17 pm

From the news:

Soldiers have taken up position at Buckingham Palace, Parliament and Downing Street on Wednesday as part of the deployment named Operation Temperer, which is being enacted after security experts warned the Government that another terrorist attack could be imminent.
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Re: Explosions at Manchester Arena

Post by 12_Gauge_Chimp » Wed May 24, 2017 4:56 pm

Stercutus wrote:
teotwaki wrote: Murderer [of Children]
Image
This smug sack of crap has (well now I suppose I should say 'had' since he's currently a bunch of pink mist) a face that screams "Please punch me in the face as hard as you can."

Seems to be a pattern with these attackers. They all have that look on their faces.

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Re: Explosions at Manchester Arena

Post by flybynight » Wed May 24, 2017 7:48 pm

12_Gauge_Chimp wrote:
Stercutus wrote:
teotwaki wrote: Murderer [of Children]
Image
This smug sack of crap has (well now I suppose I should say 'had' since he's currently a bunch of pink mist) a face that screams "Please punch me in the face as hard as you can."

Seems to be a pattern with these attackers. They all have that look on their faces.
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Re: Explosions at Manchester Arena

Post by 12_Gauge_Chimp » Wed May 24, 2017 8:07 pm

I'd prefer that murderers like this former human never get their faces in the news and that the media focuses more on the names of the victims instead.

Everyone knows the name and face of their killers, but how many of us know the names and faces of the victims ?

That's one thing I really hate about events like this. The killer's name and face gets plastered all over the news and internet, but almost nothing is said of the victims. The victims are seemingly forgotten while the name and face of their killers are forever burned into our minds.

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Re: Explosions at Manchester Arena

Post by teotwaki » Thu May 25, 2017 7:59 am

12_Gauge_Chimp wrote:I'd prefer that murderers like this former human never get their faces in the news and that the media focuses more on the names of the victims instead.

Everyone knows the name and face of their killers, but how many of us know the names and faces of the victims ?

That's one thing I really hate about events like this. The killer's name and face gets plastered all over the news and internet, but almost nothing is said of the victims. The victims are seemingly forgotten while the name and face of their killers are forever burned into our minds.
One issue is that the police needed days to identify victims and next speak directly with each family.

Those sorts of required delays cause the ADD Media to focus on the other shiny objects: the victim (terrorist murderer), who to blame for security lapses, why it was the fault of the concert goers, why society is to blame, global warming and civilian ownership of guns.
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Re: Explosions at Manchester Arena

Post by NamelessStain » Thu May 25, 2017 11:55 am

Hokicake wrote:well then their security need good military style training then and they need people who will take it seriously and not get complacent but that's a lot harder to get from a civilian that's why there needs to be ex military that have the discipline.
Sorry, disagree. Not every security person needs "military style training". I already have to deal with rental cops who have some kind of superiority complex since they have a "badge" and pepper spray. I know some fantastic ex-mil people, I also know quite a few who are a-holes. Being in the military doesn't mean you are a good person, just like wearing a badge doesn't make you a good person.
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Re: Explosions at Manchester Arena

Post by Stercutus » Thu May 25, 2017 11:56 am

NamelessStain wrote:
Hokicake wrote:well then their security need good military style training then and they need people who will take it seriously and not get complacent but that's a lot harder to get from a civilian that's why there needs to be ex military that have the discipline.
Sorry, disagree. Not every security person needs "military style training". I already have to deal with rental cops who have some kind of superiority complex since they have a "badge" and pepper spray. I know some fantastic ex-mil people, I also know quite a few who are a-holes. Being in the military doesn't mean you are a good person, just like wearing a badge doesn't make you a good person.
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From this day to the ending of the world,
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Re: Explosions at Manchester Arena

Post by NamelessStain » Thu May 25, 2017 12:02 pm

True Stericus. I've been trying to find out which ZSer is using that account as a puppet. We've seen this before and caught them.
jnathan wrote:Since we lost some posts due to some database work I'll just put this here for posterity.
Q wrote:Buckle up

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Re: Explosions at Manchester Arena

Post by Stercutus » Thu May 25, 2017 12:09 pm

A lot of righteous indignation at the leak to the NYT over the attack. I'd say almost criminal interference with an ongoing investigation.


http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk ... mbing-case
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Re: Explosions at Manchester Arena

Post by teotwaki » Thu May 25, 2017 1:41 pm

Stercutus wrote:A lot of righteous indignation at the leak to the NYT over the attack. I'd say almost criminal interference with an ongoing investigation.

http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk ... mbing-case
I can easily assume that the leaks are all coordinated for maximum embarrassment to the current President. I feel sorry that the British have been harmed by such idiocy. They don't deserve it, especially in the middle of such a tragedy.
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Re: Explosions at Manchester Arena

Post by Close_enough » Thu May 25, 2017 3:20 pm

NamelessStain wrote:
Hokicake wrote:well then their security need good military style training then and they need people who will take it seriously and not get complacent but that's a lot harder to get from a civilian that's why there needs to be ex military that have the discipline.
Sorry, disagree. Not every security person needs "military style training". I already have to deal with rental cops who have some kind of superiority complex since they have a "badge" and pepper spray. I know some fantastic ex-mil people, I also know quite a few who are a-holes. Being in the military doesn't mean you are a good person, just like wearing a badge doesn't make you a good person.
I used to roommate with a marine reservist and a security guard. He was very close to the world's perfect ***hole, and not somebody who could identify a non-so-smart bomb before he detonated.

You need somebody who can home in on the bomber before they can get into position. Do you remember the three bombers who blew themselves up outside the stadium during the 2015 Paris attacks? They managed to kill a single bystander because they were intercepted before they could get to their targets. Now, imaging the body count if Abedi had been intercepted away from the densely packed arena foyer. Big difference in body counts.

It's like playing Missile Command. You can't stop the missiles from being launched, but you can intercept them before getting to your cities. You may not be able to stop a suicide bomber from making an attempt at a target, but if he blows himself up in a target scarce environment, he's going to do much less damage.

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Re: Explosions at Manchester Arena

Post by Stercutus » Thu May 25, 2017 3:52 pm

Close_enough wrote:
NamelessStain wrote:
Hokicake wrote:well then their security need good military style training then and they need people who will take it seriously and not get complacent but that's a lot harder to get from a civilian that's why there needs to be ex military that have the discipline.
Sorry, disagree. Not every security person needs "military style training". I already have to deal with rental cops who have some kind of superiority complex since they have a "badge" and pepper spray. I know some fantastic ex-mil people, I also know quite a few who are a-holes. Being in the military doesn't mean you are a good person, just like wearing a badge doesn't make you a good person.
I used to roommate with a marine reservist and a security guard. He was very close to the world's perfect ***hole, and not somebody who could identify a non-so-smart bomb before he detonated.

You need somebody who can home in on the bomber before they can get into position. Do you remember the three bombers who blew themselves up outside the stadium during the 2015 Paris attacks? They managed to kill a single bystander because they were intercepted before they could get to their targets. Now, imaging the body count if Abedi had been intercepted away from the densely packed arena foyer. Big difference in body counts.

It's like playing Missile Command. You can't stop the missiles from being launched, but you can intercept them before getting to your cities. You may not be able to stop a suicide bomber from making an attempt at a target, but if he blows himself up in a target scarce environment, he's going to do much less damage.
The irony of Hokitroll claiming prior military would be superior in a security role is not lost on me, if she had in fact served. It would be better if she had served which of course she did not. But that is what trolls do; make controversial assertions without any evidence in order elicit an emotional response to fill some void in their ego and character.

You can stop a suicide bomber prior to an attack if you can find the bomb before it is deployed. This is the best and safest way.
teotwaki wrote:
Stercutus wrote:A lot of righteous indignation at the leak to the NYT over the attack. I'd say almost criminal interference with an ongoing investigation.

http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk ... mbing-case
I can easily assume that the leaks are all coordinated for maximum embarrassment to the current President. I feel sorry that the British have been harmed by such idiocy. They don't deserve it, especially in the middle of such a tragedy.

The attack at the concert of an American singer just days prior to the president's visit to Europe was of course no coincidence. I am not going to get in to the politics but it pretty obviously was aimed at souring relations between the UK and the US. So in that regard the attack was a success.
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Re: Explosions at Manchester Arena

Post by teotwaki » Thu May 25, 2017 7:58 pm

Stercutus wrote:The attack at the concert of an American singer just days prior to the president's visit to Europe was of course no coincidence. I am not going to get in to the politics but it pretty obviously was aimed at souring relations between the UK and the US. So in that regard the attack was a success.
Excellent observation. Makes me wonder if the leaks of the evidence occurred here or in Britain.
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Re: Explosions at Manchester Arena

Post by Stercutus » Thu May 25, 2017 9:38 pm

teotwaki wrote:
Stercutus wrote:The attack at the concert of an American singer just days prior to the president's visit to Europe was of course no coincidence. I am not going to get in to the politics but it pretty obviously was aimed at souring relations between the UK and the US. So in that regard the attack was a success.
Excellent observation. Makes me wonder if the leaks of the evidence occurred here or in Britain.
The NYT say the pics came from British LE.
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Re: Explosions at Manchester Arena

Post by LowKey » Fri May 26, 2017 11:35 am

Stercutus wrote:
teotwaki wrote:
Stercutus wrote:The attack at the concert of an American singer just days prior to the president's visit to Europe was of course no coincidence. I am not going to get in to the politics but it pretty obviously was aimed at souring relations between the UK and the US. So in that regard the attack was a success.
Excellent observation. Makes me wonder if the leaks of the evidence occurred here or in Britain.
The NYT say the pics came from British LE.
From what I understand British LE was sharing information with US DHS and LE in a professional operational sense, then someone in the US leaked to the press. :vmad:
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Re: Explosions at Manchester Arena

Post by Close_enough » Fri May 26, 2017 1:08 pm

LowKey wrote: From what I understand British LE was sharing information with US DHS and LE in a professional operational sense, then someone in the US leaked to the press. :vmad:
That's entirely feasible.

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Re: Explosions at Manchester Arena

Post by teotwaki » Fri May 26, 2017 1:47 pm

teotwaki wrote:Excellent observation. Makes me wonder if the leaks of the evidence occurred here or in Britain.
Stercutus wrote:The NYT say the pics came from British LE.
LowKey wrote:From what I understand British LE was sharing information with US DHS and LE in a professional operational sense, then someone in the US leaked to the press. :vmad:
The photos definitely were originated with British LE. Media people are claiming that the US leaked the photos but in reality they could have been leaked from anywhere and ended up being published by the US media.
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Re: Explosions at Manchester Arena

Post by K9medic » Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:04 pm

If I can add a bit about event security (I have been in the game for 35 year both taking my turn on the doors and these days teaching). Though I should add Manchester is not my area.

Everyone working an event as either safety stewart or security needs to hold a SIA badge. Minimum of two days training + exam, background checks etc to get a safety stewart's badge. Usually as a stewart all you will be doing is directing people around the venue.

The problem at Manchester was he detonated the bomb in the reception area. Remember most of the people attending were young teenagers at their first gig on their own. Due to this the parents waited to meet them in the foyer. As far as I can tell the main security was positioned between the foyer and main arena. At this type of event our main concern is someone snatching a child, not a bomb.

Yes we could push the security points further out, but this would not a crowed forming, either as people wait to be searched as they enter or as they wait to be picked up.
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Re: Explosions at Manchester Arena

Post by Stercutus » Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:18 pm

I recall an attack in Ramadi back in 2007/ 8. They hit a crowd leaving a movie theater. Same type tactics. Not much you can do about it.
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