Truck drives into crowd in Berlin

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Re: Truck drives into crowd in Berlin

Post by mzmc » Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:00 pm

That's a real point of contention between Tunesia and various Europeean governments, by the way.

Some EU country wants to extradict someone, and the Tunesians will claim to have no records of this person, or that he never was a citizen, and they won't let him back in. They've been playing this game for years...

As for the screw up regarding the watchlist, I've got nothing. What a clusterfuck.
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Re: Truck drives into crowd in Berlin

Post by flybynight » Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:43 pm

mzmc wrote:That's a real point of contention between Tunesia and various Europeean governments, by the way.

Some EU country wants to extradict someone, and the Tunesians will claim to have no records of this person, or that he never was a citizen, and they won't let him back in. They've been playing this game for years...

As for the screw up regarding the watchlist, I've got nothing. What a clusterfuck.
THIS , no matter what country you reside in , is the reason your personal security is your responsibility. If you happily live in a place that allows firearms for self defense. Carry. Or at least carry whatever the law allows you to. But nothing comes even close to saving your own life as much as always being aware of your surroundings. It's not living in fear, it's doing everything in your power to control your destiny.

edit to add. Something just pinged in my old memory banks. I remember back in the day being taught a safe truck driving system back when I did that for a living. One of the rules was " ALWAYS LEAVE AN OUT". This applies. If you need to vamoose in a hurry, know beforehand which way you want to go.
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Re: Truck drives into crowd in Berlin

Post by the_alias » Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:43 pm

mzmc wrote:That's a real point of contention between Tunesia and various Europeean governments, by the way.

Some EU country wants to extradict someone, and the Tunesians will claim to have no records of this person, or that he never was a citizen, and they won't let him back in. They've been playing this game for years...

As for the screw up regarding the watchlist, I've got nothing. What a clusterfuck.
Oh yeh but there are solutions for this...it'd get a bit political to spell them out so all I'll say is that Europe seems content to be unable to solve problems that are actually simple to solve for 'reasons'.
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Re: Truck drives into crowd in Berlin

Post by mzmc » Thu Dec 22, 2016 2:04 pm

At least they are reasonably sure they are searching for the right guy this time. His fingerprints were all over the truck cabin.
http://www.tagesschau.de/eilmeldung/eil ... -2227.html (i don't have an English source for that)

The reason he was about to be deported, by the way, was that the claimed to be a politically opressed Egyptian citizien. The translator who questioned him for the authorities quickly noticed that while he spoke perfect Arabic, he didn't know anything about everyday life in Egypt.


The good new is, the Christmas Market opened again this morning.
http://www.rbb-online.de/panorama/beitr ... weise.html (again, I don't have an English source)
As much as I dislike Berlin as a place, you have to give it to the Berliners: They are nothing if not defiant. As a genereal rule, you don't tell them what to do. Just ask any Berlin police officer. :clownshoes:

Speaking of Berlin police, they've started issuing SMGs to all officers. I didn't even know they had that many MP5s. :crazy:
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Re: Truck drives into crowd in Berlin

Post by Stercutus » Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:15 pm

THIS , no matter what country you reside in , is the reason your personal security is your responsibility.
Up to a point I suppose. Most of us are not prepared to make evaluations of people entering the country to determine if they are a threat or not.



This was not a lone wolf attack. If it were they would have caught him by now. He is getting help from somewhere.


I do remember the Berlin Christmas market fondly. After decades of fighting a war with terrorists though I do have a different viewpoint on why they would find it such a good target.
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Re: Truck drives into crowd in Berlin

Post by sheddi » Fri Dec 23, 2016 5:41 am

There are reports in reliable places that the suspect has been shot dead in Italy.

Berlin attack suspect Anis Amri killed in Milan
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38415287
The Berlin market attack suspect Anis Amri has been shot dead by police in Milan, Italy's interior minister says.

The man, who opened fire on police who asked him for ID during a routine patrol in the Sesto San Giovanni area in the early hours of Friday morning, was "without a shadow of a doubt" Anis Amri, Marco Minetti said.

One police officer was injured in the shootout.

Germany has been on high alert since the attack, which left 49 injured.

Separately, police arrested two people in the German city of Oberhausen on suspicion of planning an attack on a shopping centre.

The fingerprints of the dead man match Amri's, reports in the Italian media say.

German officials have confirmed Amri's fingerprints were found inside the truck that was used to kill 12 people and wound 49 others in Berlin on Monday evening.

The attack took place at a Christmas market at the Kaiser Wilhelm Memorial Church in the west of the German capital.

According to the Italian news agency Ansa, Anis Amri had travelled by train from France to Turin, and then taken another train to Milan.

Amri, a Tunisian national aged 24, had served a prison sentence in Italy after being convicted of vandalism, threats and theft in 2011.

He was known to Italian authorities for his violent behaviour while imprisoned.

After his release he was asked to leave the country. He arrived in Germany where he applied for asylum in April of this year.

He was named as a suspect in the Berlin attack by German federal prosecutors, and a reward of up to €100,000 (£84,000; $104,000) was offered for information leading to his arrest.
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Re: Truck drives into crowd in Berlin

Post by Ad'lan » Sun Dec 25, 2016 1:17 am

Stercutus wrote:
This was not a lone wolf attack. If it were they would have caught him by now. He is getting help from somewhere.
I believe his nephew and a few other individuals have now been arrested in Tunisia. From what I've read of his flight to Berlin, it sounds like he bought a ticket, solo, and went by train all the way to Milan without being recognised.

The term lone wolf is a tricky one. A one man cell and a lone wolf, attacks organised by and attacks inspired by, the difference between them is fuzzy to me.
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Re: Truck drives into crowd in Berlin

Post by SCBrian » Sun Dec 25, 2016 3:40 am

Ad'lan wrote:
The term lone wolf is a tricky one. A one man cell and a lone wolf, attacks organised by and attacks inspired by, the difference between them is fuzzy to me.
WWII
100 Frenchmen attack a supply convoy = french resistance!
1 man plants a car bomb = french resistance!
officer gets food poisoning from eating bad food = french resistance ;)

To me - lone wolf is a misnomer if they are being fed the doctrine and hate from a single source...
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Re: Truck drives into crowd in Berlin

Post by flybynight » Sun Dec 25, 2016 7:16 am

SCBrian wrote:
Ad'lan wrote:
The term lone wolf is a tricky one. A one man cell and a lone wolf, attacks organised by and attacks inspired by, the difference between them is fuzzy to me.
WWII
100 Frenchmen attack a supply convoy = french resistance!
1 man plants a car bomb = french resistance!
officer gets food poisoning from eating bad food = french resistance ;)

To me - lone wolf is a misnomer if they are being fed the doctrine and hate from a single source...
Let me try to clarify that for you. The French resistance did what they did against a Military occupation force that had forcefully taken over their country during a declared war .
ISIS lone wolf attackers on the other hand are killing civilian non combatant , men ,women and children in countries where the only declared war is in their own twisted minds.
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Re: Truck drives into crowd in Berlin

Post by LowKey » Sun Dec 25, 2016 8:37 am

flybynight wrote:
SCBrian wrote:
Ad'lan wrote:
The term lone wolf is a tricky one. A one man cell and a lone wolf, attacks organised by and attacks inspired by, the difference between them is fuzzy to me.
WWII
100 Frenchmen attack a supply convoy = french resistance!
1 man plants a car bomb = french resistance!
officer gets food poisoning from eating bad food = french resistance ;)

To me - lone wolf is a misnomer if they are being fed the doctrine and hate from a single source...
Let me try to clarify that for you. The French resistance did what they did against a Military occupation force that had forcefully taken over their country during a declared war .
ISIS lone wolf attackers on the other hand are killing civilian non combatant , men ,women and children in countries where the only declared war is in their own twisted minds.
He's not disparaging the French Resistance.
I believe he's just pointing out that just because an attack is carried out solo does not mean it was a "Lone Wolf" attack.
A Lone Wolf would be unaffiliated with any group, organization, or ideological movement.
AN attack by one person can still be part of an overall plan or carried out in accord with a movements stated goals.

Take a hypothetical Frenchman in a small village during the German occupation. He has no contact with members of the organized resistance, but he's heard talk about them and their call to arms of all "faithful and patriotic" Frenchmen from other villagers and Frenchmen passing through. He's also heard about the resistance from German troops when they pass through town and stop to eat at the inn.

So when this Frenchman, angry at the Germans and in full support of the organized resistance's goals, carries out an act of sabotage against a German convoy passing through his village.....is that really a "lone wolf" attack, or is it considered an attack by a member of the resistance?
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Re: Truck drives into crowd in Berlin

Post by flybynight » Sun Dec 25, 2016 11:32 am

LowKey wrote:
flybynight wrote:
SCBrian wrote:
Ad'lan wrote:
The term lone wolf is a tricky one. A one man cell and a lone wolf, attacks organised by and attacks inspired by, the difference between them is fuzzy to me.
WWII
100 Frenchmen attack a supply convoy = french resistance!
1 man plants a car bomb = french resistance!
officer gets food poisoning from eating bad food = french resistance ;)

To me - lone wolf is a misnomer if they are being fed the doctrine and hate from a single source...
Let me try to clarify that for you. The French resistance did what they did against a Military occupation force that had forcefully taken over their country during a declared war .
ISIS lone wolf attackers on the other hand are killing civilian non combatant , men ,women and children in countries where the only declared war is in their own twisted minds.
He's not disparaging the French Resistance.
I believe he's just pointing out that just because an attack is carried out solo does not mean it was a "Lone Wolf" attack.
A Lone Wolf would be unaffiliated with any group, organization, or ideological movement.
AN attack by one person can still be part of an overall plan or carried out in accord with a movements stated goals.

Take a hypothetical Frenchman in a small village during the German occupation. He has no contact with members of the organized resistance, but he's heard talk about them and their call to arms of all "faithful and patriotic" Frenchmen from other villagers and Frenchmen passing through. He's also heard about the resistance from German troops when they pass through town and stop to eat at the inn.

So when this Frenchman, angry at the Germans and in full support of the organized resistance's goals, carries out an act of sabotage against a German convoy passing through his village.....is that really a "lone wolf" attack, or is it considered an attack by a member of the resistance?
I understand, My point is don't compare resistance to a military occupation to a Criminal attack on innocents. :wink: Happy Holiday :D
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Re: Truck drives into crowd in Berlin

Post by LowKey » Sun Dec 25, 2016 2:33 pm

flybynight wrote: I understand, My point is don't compare resistance to a military occupation to a Criminal attack on innocents. :wink: Happy Holiday :D
Gotcha, but I don't think he was trying to give cowards criminals despicable terrorists an air of legitimacy comparable to the members of the French resistance, but that he was simply pointing out that operating solo doesn't mean you aren't part of a larger ideological movement.

Merry Christmas to you, as well. :D
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Re: Truck drives into crowd in Berlin

Post by SCBrian » Sun Dec 25, 2016 3:01 pm

Thanks for the follow up low key. I was only using the French resistance as an example from the expected German perspective.
Nothing to diminish the valiant French and the resistance or give any credibility to the terrorists. Probably sprung to mind because I heard Cohen's cover of the Partisan last week...
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Re: Truck drives into crowd in Berlin

Post by Ad'lan » Mon Dec 26, 2016 5:42 pm

Oddly enough, the Show 'Allo 'Allo was pretty accurate in that it portrayed several different resistance groups operating against each other with little co-ordination or co-operation, and indeed, from what I know of the French Resistance, it's far more accurate to think of them as a collection of disparate groups, individuals and "lone wolves" as per the example we've been discussing, than as an organised or cohesive resistance organisation.

To prevent this thread going too historical; Here is the guy who saved the day. A rookie new to the force training with his more senior partner who was shot infront of him. I've got to stop complaining that action films are unrealistic.
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Re: Truck drives into crowd in Berlin

Post by MPMalloy » Mon Dec 26, 2016 6:12 pm

Ad'lan:

The isn't working for me. What gives?

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Re: Truck drives into crowd in Berlin

Post by Ad'lan » Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:07 am

MPMalloy wrote:Ad'lan:

The isn't working for me. What gives?
I dunno, I don't think the Independent is area locked.

Here is another few links to the same story:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12 ... attackers/
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/police-officer ... es-1598015

The Mail is now reporting that they are going into hiding (the police officers that is) to avoid being targeted by jihadi revenge attacks.
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