Military coup d'etat in Turkey

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Re: Military coup d'etat in Turkey

Post by KGBrick » Thu Jul 28, 2016 4:22 pm

Turkish Justice Minister Bekir Bozdag said anyone who suggests the attempted coup was staged was probably involved in it themselves and would face investigation.
This definitely isn't a witch hunt...

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Re: Military coup d'etat in Turkey

Post by The Twizzler » Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:58 pm

It will definitely be interesting. It looks like Ergodan is going to bring back the death penalty. The US won't care but I wonder what the Europeans will do. They either have some tough choices to make or look like hypocrites. If Europe tries to punish Turkey you can bet the current refugee problem will look like a picnic. I wonder how this plays in Greece are they nervous or happy. Those two peoples haven't gotten along since Sargon the Great was on the throne.
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Re: Military coup d'etat in Turkey

Post by Stercutus » Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:26 am

KGBrick wrote:
Turkish Justice Minister Bekir Bozdag said anyone who suggests the attempted coup was staged was probably involved in it themselves and would face investigation.
This definitely isn't a witch hunt...
It is a good thing that you agree, otherwise you might be a witch.
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Re: Military coup d'etat in Turkey

Post by sheddi » Fri Jul 29, 2016 4:22 am

The Twizzler wrote:It will definitely be interesting. It looks like Ergodan is going to bring back the death penalty. The US won't care but I wonder what the Europeans will do. They either have some tough choices to make or look like hypocrites.
I'd like to think that we'd close the border, but it's more likely we'll isue a strongly worded memo and carry on regardless.
If Europe tries to punish Turkey you can bet the current refugee problem will look like a picnic. I wonder how this plays in Greece are they nervous or happy. Those two peoples haven't gotten along since Sargon the Great was on the throne.
One thing that can be pretty much guaranteed to unite the various Greek factions is their dislike/fear of the Turks. But a less-secular Turkey would be a big loss for Europe and the West.
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Re: Military coup d'etat in Turkey

Post by KGBrick » Fri Jul 29, 2016 11:50 am

sheddi wrote:
The Twizzler wrote:It will definitely be interesting. It looks like Ergodan is going to bring back the death penalty. The US won't care but I wonder what the Europeans will do. They either have some tough choices to make or look like hypocrites.
I'd like to think that we'd close the border, but it's more likely we'll isue a strongly worded memo and carry on regardless.
If Europe tries to punish Turkey you can bet the current refugee problem will look like a picnic. I wonder how this plays in Greece are they nervous or happy. Those two peoples haven't gotten along since Sargon the Great was on the throne.
One thing that can be pretty much guaranteed to unite the various Greek factions is their dislike/fear of the Turks. But a less-secular Turkey would be a big loss for Europe and the West.
I was disgusted enough that Erdogan's gaining so much power in his country. It didn't occur to me to connect this with how much leverage he currently has over the EU and western countries in general. The guy seems to have a fair chance of becoming a dictator and making his country non-secular with the approval-by-inaction of the world's free countries. Pardon me while I unburden myself of lunch...

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Re: Military coup d'etat in Turkey

Post by Stercutus » Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:15 pm

Turkey has a larger military than France, Germany, Italy and the UK combined when accounting for reserve forces. They also have the third largest air force in NATO after the US and France. The Navy is huge as well being larger than all but the US Navy in NATO.

Globalfirepower ranks them as the 8th most powerful military in the world. I am not sure if that is accurate. :? They have the UK ranked as sixth and I completely disagree with that assessment. If there were a straight up conventional war involving only the UK and Turkey I think Turkey would hand them their butts.
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Re: Military coup d'etat in Turkey

Post by The Twizzler » Fri Jul 29, 2016 9:56 pm

The Turks can definitely push the Greeks around when they want to ( see Cyprus) but lets state the obvious. There are tiers of allies in Nato as far as the USA is concerned and as they are the Nato power that's what matters. The bottom tier includes Greece, Romania, and others. Basically start in the North West and in order of importance move South East. There are some outliers I mean Poland seems to be on the rise and the Iberian coast on the slide but this is basically the case. If Turkey starts a fight with the UK they will also be against America, Canada, France, Belgium, Netherlands, Italy,Dennmark, maybe Greece . The rest will be fence sitters as usual.


Stercutus wrote:Turkey has a larger military than France, Germany, Italy and the UK combined when accounting for reserve forces. They also have the third largest air force in NATO after the US and France. The Navy is huge as well being larger than all but the US Navy in NATO.

Globalfirepower ranks them as the 8th most powerful military in the world. I am not sure if that is accurate. :? They have the UK ranked as sixth and I completely disagree with that assessment. If there were a straight up conventional war involving only the UK and Turkey I think Turkey would hand them their butts.
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Re: Military coup d'etat in Turkey

Post by Stercutus » Sat Jul 30, 2016 1:08 am

More from Mr. "Ifurnot4meuragainstme"

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-turke ... SKCN10912T

Turkey's Erdogan slams West for failure to show solidarity over coup attempt
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Re: Military coup d'etat in Turkey

Post by raptor » Sat Jul 30, 2016 11:28 am

Yes this will get worse before it improves. When is the next Turkish election?

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Re: Military coup d'etat in Turkey

Post by TacAir » Sat Jul 30, 2016 11:45 am

raptor wrote:Yes this will get worse before it improves. When is the next Turkish election?
Only after Mr Erdogan lifts the 'state of emergency" which should be some time after his untimely demise. Which is to say when you set your self up to be the reincarnation of Suleiman the Magnificent - a change in power will, at best, be messy.

One need only look at Syria.
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Re: Military coup d'etat in Turkey

Post by raptor » Sat Jul 30, 2016 12:38 pm

Officially the next election date appears to occur in 2019.

But yes I suspect changes may occur before then.

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Re: Military coup d'etat in Turkey

Post by Stercutus » Sat Jul 30, 2016 2:28 pm

raptor wrote:Yes this will get worse before it improves. When is the next Turkish election?
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Re: Military coup d'etat in Turkey

Post by The Twizzler » Mon Aug 08, 2016 8:41 pm

My opinion; As far as foreign relations go nothing changes. Turkey is either disliked or not trusted by all it's surrounding countries and those with influence in the middle east. The only leverage they have is with the refugees flooding into Europe. That fact I personally lay at the feet of Germany. If Merkel either changes her thinking either openly or secretly or she is ousted politically. Europe can then play hardball. They just state all refugees will not be allowed into Europe. If a country disagrees then you simply say we direct all refugees toward these countries. Problem solved. If Greece says no or Sweden says no then here you deal with them. As we say here that dog won't hunt (it's not gonna happen). They will fold to internal and external pressure and go along. At this point what does Turkey do? Where does it go? It is alone and not strong enough to be alone. Turkey is a regional power but not a superpower without allies they become Iran both poor and isolated. I can't see the Turks especially the western part(geographically) abiding this. After a few years maybe a decade they start to appear weak. One thing you don't want in the Middle East is to appear weak.
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Re: Military coup d'etat in Turkey

Post by Close_enough » Tue Aug 09, 2016 3:16 pm

The Twizzler wrote: Turkey is a regional power but not a superpower without allies they become Iran both poor and isolated. I can't see the Turks especially the western part(geographically) abiding this. After a few years maybe a decade they start to appear weak. One thing you don't want in the Middle East is to appear weak.
Turkey is courting Russia. If I had to guess, they'd want to turn any invasion/resistance into another Vietnam where the super powers were providing backing for a local forces. http://www.theatlantic.com/news/archive ... es/495020/

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Re: Military coup d'etat in Turkey

Post by selen » Tue Aug 09, 2016 3:52 pm

Close_enough wrote:
The Twizzler wrote: Turkey is a regional power but not a superpower without allies they become Iran both poor and isolated. I can't see the Turks especially the western part(geographically) abiding this. After a few years maybe a decade they start to appear weak. One thing you don't want in the Middle East is to appear weak.
Turkey is courting Russia. If I had to guess, they'd want to turn any invasion/resistance into another Vietnam where the super powers were providing backing for a local forces. http://www.theatlantic.com/news/archive ... es/495020/

I'm sorry invasion by whom?

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Re: Military coup d'etat in Turkey

Post by Close_enough » Tue Aug 09, 2016 5:28 pm

selen wrote:
Close_enough wrote:
The Twizzler wrote: Turkey is a regional power but not a superpower without allies they become Iran both poor and isolated. I can't see the Turks especially the western part(geographically) abiding this. After a few years maybe a decade they start to appear weak. One thing you don't want in the Middle East is to appear weak.
Turkey is courting Russia. If I had to guess, they'd want to turn any invasion/resistance into another Vietnam where the super powers were providing backing for a local forces. http://www.theatlantic.com/news/archive ... es/495020/

I'm sorry invasion by whom?
Let me explain my reasoning. Erdogan is, by all appearances, he** bent on turning Turkey into a dictatorship / theocracy, and his current actions indicate almost certain future purges and other human rights abuses. Consider Kosova, ISIS, Rwanda, etc. as examples where the abuses were severe enough to result in military intervention. Left by himself it's only a matter of time before a humanitarian force is sent in to stop the abuses. With Russia's backing, military intervention will be an expensive proposition. UN/NATO will be unwilling to go toe to toe with them and may have to rely on economic, and other diplomatic sanctions.

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Re: Military coup d'etat in Turkey

Post by Stercutus » Tue Aug 09, 2016 5:35 pm

Close_enough wrote:
selen wrote:
Close_enough wrote:
The Twizzler wrote: Turkey is a regional power but not a superpower without allies they become Iran both poor and isolated. I can't see the Turks especially the western part(geographically) abiding this. After a few years maybe a decade they start to appear weak. One thing you don't want in the Middle East is to appear weak.
Turkey is courting Russia. If I had to guess, they'd want to turn any invasion/resistance into another Vietnam where the super powers were providing backing for a local forces. http://www.theatlantic.com/news/archive ... es/495020/

I'm sorry invasion by whom?
Let me explain my reasoning. Erdogan is, by all appearances, he** bent on turning Turkey into a dictatorship / theocracy, and his current actions indicate almost certain future purges and other human rights abuses. Consider Kosova, ISIS, Rwanda, etc. as examples where the abuses were severe enough to result in military intervention. Left by himself it's only a matter of time before a humanitarian force is sent in to stop the abuses. With Russia's backing, military intervention will be an expensive proposition. UN/NATO will be unwilling to go toe to toe with them and may have to rely on economic, and other diplomatic sanctions.
OKAY....

You understand Turkey is actually a MEMBER of NATO?

http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/nato_countries.htm

Explain your reasoning again? Feel free to use any historical example of a NATO country invading another NATO country.
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Re: Military coup d'etat in Turkey

Post by The Twizzler » Tue Aug 09, 2016 6:05 pm

Turkey and Russia are traditional enemies, like, several centuries traditional. They don't like each other and neither do their populations. They don't have any real friends that are not dependent on them and less powerfull to boot. Why do you think they were so eager to join NATO?


Close_enough wrote:
The Twizzler wrote: Turkey is a regional power but not a superpower without allies they become Iran both poor and isolated. I can't see the Turks especially the western part(geographically) abiding this. After a few years maybe a decade they start to appear weak. One thing you don't want in the Middle East is to appear weak.
Turkey is courting Russia. If I had to guess, they'd want to turn any invasion/resistance into another Vietnam where the super powers were providing backing for a local forces. http://www.theatlantic.com/news/archive ... es/495020/
"Oh Bother!" said Pooh, as he drew his dagger...

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Re: Military coup d'etat in Turkey

Post by The Twizzler » Tue Aug 09, 2016 6:15 pm

OKAY....1974 Turkish Invasion of Greek Cyprus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_i ... _of_Cyprus .Turkey and Greece had both been NATO members since 1952. The US ended up putting a trade embargo on Turkey and the now Turkish side of Cyprus. We lifted the Turkish one 3 years later but the the Turkish Cypriots are still barred from trade with us.


[/quote]

OKAY....

You understand Turkey is actually a MEMBER of NATO?

http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/nato_countries.htm

Explain your reasoning again? Feel free to use any historical example of a NATO country invading another NATO country.[/quote]
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Re: Military coup d'etat in Turkey

Post by Stercutus » Tue Aug 09, 2016 6:22 pm

Ah so the Greeks will be looking for some payback then?

Of course Cyprus was no longer a part of Greece. It was independent in 1960 and not a member of NATO. The ploy by Greece to overthrow the government and install their own strongman and become a part of Greece was seen and caught. This was never recognized by the UN or NATO.

So technically there was no NATO-NATO invasion. A skirmish between countries and plenty of rape but no invasion.
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Re: Military coup d'etat in Turkey

Post by The Twizzler » Tue Aug 09, 2016 7:05 pm

I bet you would say that very quietly on the Greek side of Cyprus :lol: . Of Course :P ! The Greeks are always looking for payback on Turkey ask any Greek. The UN was irrelevant then and now IMHO. Europe was totally against it as you said but America was for it and viewed it as a Nato on Nato invasion hence the continued sanctions on Turkish Cypress.
Greece hasn't bested Turkey or at least the area Turkey resides since the Ptolemy era, they should really just give up that ghost.
Stercutus wrote:Ah so the Greeks will be looking for some payback then?

Of course Cyprus was no longer a part of Greece. It was independent in 1960 and not a member of NATO. The ploy by Greece to overthrow the government and install their own strongman and become a part of Greece was seen and caught. This was never recognized by the UN or NATO.

So technically there was no NATO-NATO invasion. A skirmish between countries and plenty of rape but no invasion.
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Re: Military coup d'etat in Turkey

Post by raptor » Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:22 pm

Turkey has suspended 12,800 police officers as being suspects in the coup!?
2,523 are police chiefs so it appears to be a lot of the force and command.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/tur ... smsnnews11


It sounds like the remaining LEOs who are still available for duty are going to have their hands full until they get back up to full strength. :?

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Re: Military coup d'etat in Turkey

Post by dogbane » Tue Oct 04, 2016 1:16 pm

They have also purged 20k teachers. It seems strange that a failed coup that nobody saw coming had so many conspirators. :?
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Re: Military coup d'etat in Turkey

Post by raptor » Tue Oct 04, 2016 3:58 pm

dogbane wrote:They have also purged 20k teachers. It seems strange that a failed coup that nobody saw coming had so many conspirators. :?
I agree.
It sounds like there were more people purged than were on the streets at the height of the coup.

The headline is the usual hyperbole of today (al la "literally Hitler" :wink:) but still does show the scale of the actions to date.
Only rarely in modern history has a leader detained and fired as many perceived adversaries as President Recep Tayyip Erdogan of Turkey has since a failed coup attempt last month. Here is how Mr. Erdogan’s vast purge would look if Americans were targeted at a similar scale.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016 ... scale.html

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