Paris, France - Islamist Terror Attack on satirical magazine

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Re: Paris, France - Islamist Terror Attack on satirical maga

Post by sheddi » Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:53 pm

duodecima wrote:
sheddi wrote:Early reports of a third hostage situation in Montpellier.

RT.com:
http://rt.com/news/221255-montpellier-j ... ge-france/

No clue whether it's political or just an armed robbery gone wrong.
It's terrible when you end up hoping it's "just" armed robbery gone wrong...
Reports on the Montpellier incident seem to agree that it's a criminal event, not a terrorist one. Since most criminals don't fancy themselves as martyrs I'm guessing the police will be able to negotiate this one out.
I don't know if anyone else knows more about this, but the 18 year old identified as a suspect in the Charlie Hebdo attack, Mourad Hamyd, who turned himself in? His friends have apparently said he was actually in school with them at the time of the Charlie Hebdo attack. Should be easy enough to verify. http://www.newyorker.com/news/amy-david ... urad-hamyd[/quoite]
I'd heard something similar. Mourad Hamyd was reported to be co-operating with the police, rather than having been charged with anything. He's since dropped off the news wires.
IF that's true - the 3rd terrorist from Charlie Hebdo (who apparently drove the getaway car) is still out there, and this isn't over yet.
Unless, of course, the third gunman was Amedy Coulibaly (which is speculation on my part and I've nothing to recommend the idea other than its tidiness).
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Re: Paris, France - Islamist Terror Attack on satirical maga

Post by sheddi » Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:58 pm

My source for this is "journalists on Twitter" so it might not be entirely accurate.

Regarding the Hyper Cacher incident:
Journos on Twitter wrote:President Hollande confirmed to Israeli PM Netanyahu that 4 hostages are dead and says 15 were freed, some in critical condition.
Edit to add:
France24 expands on this, to say there are 7 injured, 3 critically. Unclear whether all of these are hostages.
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Re: Paris, France - Islamist Terror Attack on satirical maga

Post by Stercutus » Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:37 pm

The BBC is doing a good job keeping track of all the different attacks throughout the country and the status of the various attackers that are known on this page:


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30708237

The situation has been pretty fast moving but hopefully is under control now.
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Re: Paris, France - mass shooting

Post by sheddi » Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:18 pm

the_alias wrote:
phalanx wrote:
hondo wrote:
Most of illegal guns in Europe coming from Bosnia and Kosovo some from Macedonia less directly from Serbia and Croatia.
You have thousand of eighteen wheelers and passenger buses going from former Yugoslavia into western Europe every day. It is common for customs to find a bag full of guns on the bus and none of passenger claims it.
France being specific because high number of French citizens fought in Balkan wars.
That's pretty interesting; sounds like French customs officers have their work cut out for them. I also have to admit my geography of southeastern Europe kinda sucks, so I guess I'll spend more time looking at maps!
What customs officers?

Open borders under Schengen.
Apologies, only just remembered to come back to this.

Of the former Yugoslav republics, only Slovenia is currently in the Schengen Area. It thus falls to the customs officers of Slovenia, Hungary, Greece (Schengen nations who border the remaining former Yugoslav republics) and Italy (across the Adriatic) to keep illicit arms out of the Schengen Area.
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Re: Paris, France - Islamist Terror Attack on satirical maga

Post by sheddi » Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:26 pm

Here's a video from French TV of the French police going into the supermarket. It's not exactly gruesome but there are dead bodies to be seen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0X-a5mAe-o
(Edit: replaced with higher-quality version of same clip)

10 out of 10 for balls for the one French cop who goes through the door into the supermarket at 0:15. Either no-one else got the memo, or he should change his name to Leeroy Jenkins.

The gunman makes it to the door (but no further) at 0:30.

Wider shot here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zxLFl-5UgA

In the second video you can see that two police officers are injured; one near the phone booth (seen in the first video) and a second who remains in the street outside the store.

Edit to add:
There are other angles available on YouTube, but these two seem the most informative. (And I wish more "citizen journalists" would invest in a tripod, shaky handheld cellphone video is making my head hurt.)
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Re: Paris, France - Islamist Terror Attack on satirical maga

Post by Boondock » Fri Jan 09, 2015 5:38 pm

Holy crap! That was a bullet festival.

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Re: Paris, France - Islamist Terror Attack on satirical maga

Post by Kommander » Fri Jan 09, 2015 6:48 pm

I am not a "trained operator" by any means but that entry did not look nearly as clean as others I have seen, especially with all the one handed firing from behind those shields. Do we have a clue as to who the guys doing the assault were?
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Re: Paris, France - Islamist Terror Attack on satirical maga

Post by the_alias » Fri Jan 09, 2015 7:21 pm

Kommander wrote:I am not a "trained operator" by any means but that entry did not look nearly as clean as others I have seen, especially with all the one handed firing from behind those shields. Do we have a clue as to who the guys doing the assault were?
Think Police not military. Could be wrong ...

I'm not an operator at all either but in the UK this would have been SAS or SBS remit, there may have been other factors here that meant French used their Police - pure speculation on my part but more of their spec forces could have been tied up at the other siege..
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Re: Paris, France - Islamist Terror Attack on satirical maga

Post by Stercutus » Fri Jan 09, 2015 7:48 pm

One of the police extracting one of the wounded officers was a walking argument for having a sling on your weapon.... near the end of the clip.

Looked like way to many people for an entry team. They are very lucky there was no SVEST or it all could have gone very badly very quick. They got it done. Likely not the best way possible. But they still got it done. It is easy for me to criticize, I am not the one there doing it.
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Re: Paris, France - Islamist Terror Attack on satirical maga

Post by the_alias » Fri Jan 09, 2015 7:51 pm

Most reports I'm seeing are the raids were managed by GIGN http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_G ... tion_Group
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Re: Paris, France - Islamist Terror Attack on satirical maga

Post by phalanx » Fri Jan 09, 2015 7:54 pm

Kommander wrote:I am not a "trained operator" by any means but that entry did not look nearly as clean as others I have seen, especially with all the one handed firing from behind those shields. Do we have a clue as to who the guys doing the assault were?
I don't think they had a lot of time to get organized. The raids on both hostage situations occurred simultaneously (or close to it), and I would guess that the French had to use what was available at the moment. Their forces were pretty spread out over the greater Paris area, and I would also guess the majority of the tactical teams were hunting the brothers on the outskirts.
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Re: Paris, France - Islamist Terror Attack on satirical maga

Post by satow » Sat Jan 10, 2015 12:23 am

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Re: Paris, France - mass shooting

Post by hondo » Sat Jan 10, 2015 1:52 am

the_alias wrote:
phalanx wrote:
hondo wrote:
Most of illegal guns in Europe coming from Bosnia and Kosovo some from Macedonia less directly from Serbia and Croatia.
You have thousand of eighteen wheelers and passenger buses going from former Yugoslavia into western Europe every day. It is common for customs to find a bag full of guns on the bus and none of passenger claims it.
France being specific because high number of French citizens fought in Balkan wars.
That's pretty interesting; sounds like French customs officers have their work cut out for them. I also have to admit my geography of southeastern Europe kinda sucks, so I guess I'll spend more time looking at maps!
What customs officers?

Open borders under Schengen.
Customs of Bosnia, Croatia, Crna Gora, Slovenia, Italy,

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Re: Paris, France - Islamist Terror Attack on satirical maga

Post by sheddi » Sat Jan 10, 2015 6:51 am

phalanx wrote:
Kommander wrote:I am not a "trained operator" by any means but that entry did not look nearly as clean as others I have seen, especially with all the one handed firing from behind those shields. Do we have a clue as to who the guys doing the assault were?
... I would guess that the French had to use what was available at the moment. Their forces were pretty spread out over the greater Paris area, and I would also guess the majority of the tactical teams were hunting the brothers on the outskirts.
If anyone reading this is an authority on French policing, please correct me.
France has two national police forces, the Police Nationale (PN) and the Gendarmerie Nationale (GN). Between them they have authority over the whole of France except for Paris, which has its own Préfecture de Police de Paris (PP). (There may also be local Police Municipale, under the control of the local mayor, who are generally unarmed and don't seem to have played a significant part in these events.)

Each of these forces - the PN, the GN and the PPP - have their own tactical units.

PN - RAID
GN - GIGN
PP - BRI

We saw GN GIGN and PN RAID deployed for the house-to-house searches around Villers-Cotterets and GIGN can be seen in photos of the end of the Dammartin siege (there are some good ones on the GN's twitter account).

The Hyper Cacher incident appears to have been led by the PP BRI unit (you can see their liveried armoured truck clearly in the second video above). I'm in no position to criticise the BRI; it's possible they were forced into action earlier than planned by the Dammartin siege's abrupt ending. It's been widely reported that the two groups of gunmen were in contact and the news of the Dammartin events was all over the media; the BRI may have gone in when they did to pre-empt their gunman from killing his hostages (since safe passage for the Kouachi brothers was one of his demands).
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Re: Paris, France - Islamist Terror Attack on satirical maga

Post by RickOShea » Sat Jan 10, 2015 12:48 pm

Female accomplice of islamists in Paris attacks left France:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/01/ ... JR20150110

"(Reuters) - The suspected female accomplice of Islamists behind attacks in Paris left France last week and traveled to Syria via Turkey, a source familiar with the situation said on Saturday."



http://www.reuters.fr/article/topNews/i ... J720150110

"PARIS (Reuters) - Boumeddiene Hayat , the companion of the hostage-taker at a kosher supermarket in Paris, left France January 2nd and would have arrived in Syria via Turkey on January 8th, said a source Saturday who is close to the matter."
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Re: Paris, France - Islamist Terror Attack on satirical maga

Post by Zipper » Tue Jan 13, 2015 12:18 pm

It is difficult for me to comment on this subject without violating the standards of this Forum but I am going to make an attempt. It seems that this country is going to have to adjust the current idea of an armed public. We are going to have to have a more tight public security program.

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Re: Paris, France - Islamist Terror Attack on satirical maga

Post by LowKey » Tue Jan 13, 2015 2:19 pm

Zipper wrote:It is difficult for me to comment on this subject without violating the standards of this Forum but I am going to make an attempt. It seems that this country is going to have to adjust the current idea of an armed public. We are going to have to have a more tight public security program.
If by,"It seems that this country is going to have to adjust the current idea of an armed public",
you mean that the country will need to get used to many more folks choosing to go about their lawful daily affairs while carrying a firearm (concealed or openly) you're probably right.

Now this next bit you wrote-
Zipper wrote:<snip>We are going to have to have a more tight public security program.
If you mean routine/randomcheckpoints, ID papers, frisk and search, et al....you're completely wrong. There's a whole slew of legal barriers to such shenanigans and rightly so.


You may be missing a key point in all of this; if you permit those who have used terrorist attacks against you with the goal of destroying your society's structure to cause you to transform your society from one based on individual liberty and freedom to a society structured like a prison....they've won.

This may be a hard truth for you to swallow but our culture and society can more easily afford to loose way more lives to terrorist attacks than we have so far in total than we could afford the consequnces of turning in to a police state. We can recover from the loss of many lives and have done so before (Civil War, WWI, WWII), there is very little likelihood of a country "recovering" from being a police state.
Not to mention that a, "more tight public security program", wouldn't and couldn't stop such attacks. You'd be trading away your liberty and legal rights for an illusion of saftey. Bad trade.
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Re: Paris, France - Islamist Terror Attack on satirical maga

Post by the_alias » Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:12 pm

I know you love that Freedom LowKey but this risks running into politics. Further discussion should be taken to PM :)
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Re: Paris, France - Islamist Terror Attack on satirical maga

Post by Zipper » Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:23 pm

Now this next bit you

This may be a hard truth for you to swallow but our culture and society can more easily afford to loose way more lives to terrorist attacks than we have so far in total than we could afford the consequnces of turning in to a police state. We can recover from the loss of many lives and have done so before (Civil War, WWI, WWII), there is very little likelihood of a country "recovering" from being a police state.
Not to mention that a, "more tight public security program", wouldn't and couldn't stop such attacks. You'd be trading away your liberty and legal rights for an illusion of saftey. Bad trade.[/quote]I was suggesting that public places will maybe have doormen and limit access to places where no one has any business. FYI I am very jealous of my freedom and the freedoms we have and would never suggest a police state. Now I am going to shut up before I get into trouble.

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Re: Paris, France - Islamist Terror Attack on satirical maga

Post by Boondock » Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:08 pm

Zipper wrote:We are going to have to have a more tight public security program.
Hopefully, we've got a ways to go before the country needs anything like this:

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Re: Paris, France - Islamist Terror Attack on satirical maga

Post by Stercutus » Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:51 pm

I guess it was inevitable. The political fallout remains to be seen and should probably be left to the French to discuss how they want to handle it. There will be fallout of course. The whole point of the attack was to effect change. Just what that change is remains to be seen.

I will say that many of the dire predictions of the US becoming a police state after 9/11 never came to pass.
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Re: Paris, France - Islamist Terror Attack on satirical maga

Post by williaty » Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:55 pm

Stercutus wrote:I will say that many of the dire predictions of the US becoming a police state after 9/11 never came to pass.
About the most I can say on ZS is that I disagree with you utterly.

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Re: Paris, France - Islamist Terror Attack on satirical maga

Post by LowKey » Wed Jan 14, 2015 11:15 am

the_alias wrote:I know you love that Freedom LowKey but this risks running into politics. Further discussion should be taken to PM :)
Which is why I stuck to the legalities of the issue. :awesome:
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Re: Paris, France - Islamist Terror Attack on satirical maga

Post by duodecima » Wed Jan 14, 2015 11:50 am

Getting back to my "So where's the alleged getaway driver" - I am apparently not the only one with that question. I couldn't see one in any of the youtube available, and now apparently there's a question of whether or not the eyewitnesses were correct, and perhaps there was not a 3rd person directly involved in the Charlie Hebdo attack. Mourad Hamyd was released without charge on Friday night.

http://www.news.com.au/world/europe/mou ... 7182026829

I also wonder what the source was, of statments that Couliday's wife was present for the shooting of the policewoman last thursday, since she was apparently documented to be out of France by then.

(I know it's not a neutral source, but of it's 4 questions, 2 of them exactly the things I was wondering about. http://www.motherjones.com/politics/201 ... rlie-hebdo)

I realize that it was a fluid situation and both miscommunication and incorrect reporting may have occured.
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