Ukraine unrest

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Re: Ukraine unrest

Post by BullOnParade » Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:21 pm

Das Sheep wrote:
blackhorse wrote:Big question
Will Russia now try to take Eastern and Southern Russian majority regions of Ukraine once they feel the Crimean annex is done? If so watch for Poland and what they do.
This crisis proves that civilized man will always use force to get what he can if he thinks he can get away with it.
Too many people thought codependent economies and international agreements and international deliberating bodies made militaries a thing of the 20th century and before. Now all these ex Soviet era vassal states are finding out you can't rely on others to protect you. You have to have a strong military and a will to fight.
Any nation with Russian citizens should be more than worried. Russia can now use the same false claims to annex anything they can put boots on the ground.
I feel ashamed that my nation promised the Ukrainian people we would defend them from aggression and all my nation is doing is TALKING. Along with the EU, UN, G7, and NATO. Reminds me of a high school debate team taking on a street gang over street crime. Pathetic
Do you want to go die for the Ukrainians?
This is getting a little personal, but yeah, I would consider it. History class taught me that when there was a call to arms in the 40's, men wanted to fight. In my lifetime, I don't know that I've seen a conflict that I have felt strongly enough about to consider signing up, but I would consider it.

Local news just stated that America's DOD is "uneasy" regarding the increase of Russian troops "training" near the Ukrainian border. The average person probably doesn't realize that this is a common military tactic, probably used by every country in the G8, certainly America, Canada, and the UK (and now obviously Russia). It's an effective way to put troops near where they might be needed if conflict erupts.

Top story on the news: a man was stabbed near the Russian Embassy in Ottawa. Unconfirmed that the victim may have been a Russian diplomat.
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Re: Ukraine unrest

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:25 pm

Das Sheep wrote:
blackhorse wrote:Big question
Will Russia now try to take Eastern and Southern Russian majority regions of Ukraine once they feel the Crimean annex is done? If so watch for Poland and what they do.
This crisis proves that civilized man will always use force to get what he can if he thinks he can get away with it.
Too many people thought codependent economies and international agreements and international deliberating bodies made militaries a thing of the 20th century and before. Now all these ex Soviet era vassal states are finding out you can't rely on others to protect you. You have to have a strong military and a will to fight.
Any nation with Russian citizens should be more than worried. Russia can now use the same false claims to annex anything they can put boots on the ground.
I feel ashamed that my nation promised the Ukrainian people we would defend them from aggression and all my nation is doing is TALKING. Along with the EU, UN, G7, and NATO. Reminds me of a high school debate team taking on a street gang over street crime. Pathetic
Do you want to go die for the Ukrainians?
Does it pay well?
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Re: Ukraine unrest

Post by Das Sheep » Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:33 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote: Does it pay well?
Well, I think the military life does.

For America, it would pay big. It would allow us to see that our allies got to sell their nat gas to Europe.

But I think that for most of the soldiers, sailors and marines out there, it does not pay enough. Russia is pretty scary. We were talking about this at work, pretty much all of us agreed that it would be a lot of suck to get involved in.

And its hard to see an outcome in an actual war between Russia (and probably her allies) and America that does not end in Nuclear war.

BoP,
Those men who wanted to go to war probably did not know much about it.

Ukraine is a really nice place. I am sure there are a lot of awesome Ukrainians. Let them fight their own battles.

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Re: Ukraine unrest

Post by Rev » Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:51 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote: Does it pay well?
Are truck drivers still making a lot of money as contractors or is that all over now?
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Re: Ukraine unrest

Post by Kommander » Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:57 pm

The whole of Crimea is not worth the bones of a single Alabamian grenadier.

Sometimes you have to give up on the "good fight" if it means preventing a wider conflict that could easily spiral out of control. I wonder what the English of 1918 felt about their 1839 treaty with Belgium.
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Re: Ukraine unrest

Post by sheddi » Fri Mar 14, 2014 4:59 pm

Clash in Kharkhov tonight. Exactly who was involved isn't clear yet; pro-Russians claim to have been attacked by Pravy Sektor, other sources suggest the pro-Russians got in a fight with random passers-by and only claimed it was Pravy Sektor after the event. Also some suggestion that two police officers may have been shot.

Could this be the Archduke Franz Ferdinand moment?

In other news, Russian media run a report of a US drone being hijacked. Pentagon decline to comment, but unofficial sources deny it.

Pentagon Official Denies U.S. Drone Was Downed Over Crimea
http://www.buzzfeed.com/carlomunoz/pent ... ver-crimea" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

WASHINGTON — A senior Pentagon official has denied Russian media reports that a U.S. intelligence drone has been intercepted while flying surveillance missions over Crimea.

The official declined to be quoted or identified because of the ongoing crisis in the region. A Pentagon spokesman declined to comment at all.

A report by the news agency Interfax was picked up by the Kremlin-owned Voice of Russia radio claiming that an Army MQ-5B “Hunter” drone, attached to the 66th Military Intelligence Brigade, was brought down in Chongar, near Crimea, along the Russian-Ukrainian border.

The report said Russian self-defense forces were able to jam and eventually break the communication link between the aircraft and its Army pilots, forcing the drone to make an emergency landing. It was flying at 4,000 meters, it said.

The report said it was based on a statement released on the website of Russian defense firm Rostec, but the statement could not be found on the website.

Army officials in Washington contacted by BuzzFeed had not heard or been notified of any loss of unmanned aircraft attached to U.S. Army-Europe, the service’s command in the region.

Military experts previously told BuzzFeed that the U.S. could choose to run support missions in Ukraine that would likely focus on intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) operations, which include use of long-range surveillance drones and U.S. spy planes.
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Re: Ukraine unrest

Post by wee drop o' bush » Fri Mar 14, 2014 5:35 pm

sheddi wrote:Clash in Kharkhov tonight. Exactly who was involved isn't clear yet; pro-Russians claim to have been attacked by Pravy Sektor, other sources suggest the pro-Russians got in a fight with random passers-by and only claimed it was Pravy Sektor after the event. Also some suggestion that two police officers may have been shot.

Could this be the Archduke Franz Ferdinand moment?
I sincerely hope not though I am surprised that there hasn't been more violence. I find WW1 fascinating but I've no wish to experience a WW :ohdear:
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Re: Ukraine unrest

Post by blackhorse » Sat Mar 15, 2014 1:04 pm

Das Sheep wrote:
blackhorse wrote:Big question
Will Russia now try to take Eastern and Southern Russian majority regions of Ukraine once they feel the Crimean annex is done? If so watch for Poland and what they do.
This crisis proves that civilized man will always use force to get what he can if he thinks he can get away with it.
Too many people thought codependent economies and international agreements and international deliberating bodies made militaries a thing of the 20th century and before. Now all these ex Soviet era vassal states are finding out you can't rely on others to protect you. You have to have a strong military and a will to fight.
Any nation with Russian citizens should be more than worried. Russia can now use the same false claims to annex anything they can put boots on the ground.
I feel ashamed that my nation promised the Ukrainian people we would defend them from aggression and all my nation is doing is TALKING. Along with the EU, UN, G7, and NATO. Reminds me of a high school debate team taking on a street gang over street crime. Pathetic
Do you want to go die for the Ukrainians?
If I was still in I would be willing.
Options
Since it's too late to retake the Crimea without starting a war we can
1) Deploy US and Allied troops in neighboring nations while telling Russia if they invade the rest of the Ukraine they will come to the Ukrainian people's aid. Yes it will ratchet up the tension but Russia is a bully that again is picking on a weaker nation.
2) Real harsh sanctions....cut all economic links with Russia and only give it back after Russia leaves.
3) Get a new Ukrainian government to sign a defense agreement with NATO then move forces into Ukraine to check further aggression.

Question Days Sheep
Who are you willing to defend if anyone and when does a security agreement require enforcement?
Can't have international peace if you're not willing to enforce its agreed upon rules.
If you can't justify upholding current agreements when its hard and dangerous then you should push to leave the EU, NATO, UN, and any other international organizations or agreements. But I really doubt it will happen. Too many people only want peace when its easy to let someone else do the enforcing or let someone else be sacrificed because its hard or requires sacrifices. International treaties are worthless unless your willing to sacrifice for the weakest and or least liked member of that alliance or agreement. Until the international community puts their actions where their mouth is this will continue in the world

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Re: Ukraine unrest

Post by blackhorse » Sat Mar 15, 2014 1:25 pm

TacAir wrote:
blackhorse wrote:Big question
Will Russia now try to take Eastern and Southern Russian majority regions of Ukraine once they feel the Crimean annex is done? If so watch for Poland and what they do.
This crisis proves that civilized man will always use force to get what he can if he thinks he can get away with it.
Too many people thought codependent economies and international agreements and international deliberating bodies made militaries a thing of the 20th century and before. Now all these ex Soviet era vassal states are finding out you can't rely on others to protect you. You have to have a strong military and a will to fight.
Any nation with Russian citizens should be more than worried. Russia can now use the same false claims to annex anything they can put boots on the ground.
I feel ashamed that my nation promised the Ukrainian people we would defend them from aggression and all my nation is doing is TALKING. Along with the EU, UN, G7, and NATO. Reminds me of a high school debate team taking on a street gang over street crime. Pathetic

That 'street gang" has these
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Makes a big difference in how a country is dealt with. Wanna know why Iran wants The Bomb so badly, just watch Russia...
So because Russia has nukes we should let them take over every non nuclear nation they want?
So how do we contain N Korea from taking S Korea?
Ya by using conventional forces. We can contain and even fight Russia without going nuclear. We don't have to conquer Russia to keep them out of the Ukraine and or force them from the Crimean. Now I'm not for forcefully removing Russia from the Crimea it is way past doing any good there.
But even crazy Putin won't risk nuclear war over the Crimea.
Otherwise this you can't fight or confront a nuclear power like Russia will only start a whole new nuclear arms race.
Since nobody will help defend against this aggression they will conclude they need nuclear weapons to defend themselves.
Hope that idea makes you feel so much safer.

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Re: Ukraine unrest

Post by Das Sheep » Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:03 pm

blackhorse wrote: So because Russia has nukes we should let them take over every non nuclear nation they want?
So how do we contain N Korea from taking S Korea?
Ya by using conventional forces. We can contain and even fight Russia without going nuclear. We don't have to conquer Russia to keep them out of the Ukraine and or force them from the Crimean. Now I'm not for forcefully removing Russia from the Crimea it is way past doing any good there.
But even crazy Putin won't risk nuclear war over the Crimea.
Otherwise this you can't fight or confront a nuclear power like Russia will only start a whole new nuclear arms race.
Since nobody will help defend against this aggression they will conclude they need nuclear weapons to defend themselves.
Hope that idea makes you feel so much safer.
We are not the worlds Police.

If former Soviet states are afraid of Russian aggression, let them come together and repel her. If the Ukraine, Estonia, Latvia, Poland, Lithuania, Belarus, etc united against Russia then they could put up a hell of a fight if Russia ever went hot against one of them.

Would they win?

Maybe.

But more likely they would make it to dangerous for Russia and to costly to fight them.

All without costing us anything, really.

I can't see how what is going on in the Ukraine is worth the blood of anyone that's not Ukrainian.

edit: I am an American. I am willing to defend America, and maybe her very close allies. Ukraine is not our ally. I understand their plight, and thats sad. But I have no desire to kill anyone for them, and even less of a desire to die for them.
Last edited by Das Sheep on Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ukraine unrest

Post by Kommander » Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:32 pm

NATO can not move enough forces into Ukraine to stop the Russians so it's a moot point. The best thing we could do in that regard would be to send trainers, advisors, and SF teams to help with the guerilla phase of the war. We may already be doing some of that but there is no way that we would advertise it.
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Re: Ukraine unrest

Post by spanningtree » Sat Mar 15, 2014 4:19 pm

Honestly Russia could not give two bits about "their" citizens living in the Ukraine. They are after control of the pipelines that transit Ukraine on the way to Europe and the naval facility in Crimea. Deposits have also been found offshore of Crimea, there are tanker terminals in Crimea and underwater pipelines are planned between Crimea and neighbors such as Turkey. The Ukraine's pipelines can supply central Europe and the planned Crimean build would/could supply southern Europe. The issue really lies with Europe taking a firmer stance and diversifying their energy supply. Slso smacking the supplier around when they act like a bad dog, but that's hard when you don't have a diverse supply. You can't really fault Russia for trying to exert control and take the initiative on a potentially very lucrative situation.

I'm a little surprised that the US is not looking at some of the newer fields that we have (and flaring off more than 50% of the NG from them) and ways we could be exporting that to the EU.

http://dailycaller.com/2014/03/12/russi ... pipelines/

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Re: Ukraine unrest

Post by sheddi » Sat Mar 15, 2014 4:29 pm

Russian troops have reportedly landed in Ukraine near (but outside) Crimea by helicopter and set up roadblocks. It's not clear whether they're still there or if they've gone home again.

Ukrainian border guards report:
Russian helicopter-borne assaulton Arabat Spit
On March 15,near 1p.m.border guardsperforming regime control tasks at the administrative border of Kherson and Crimea regionsnearby Strilkovesettlementwatched helicopter-borne assault of 60 Russian Federation militaryout of 4 helicopters. Border guards together with Ukrainian Armed Forces military (about 20 people) were forced to drop back to the crossroads leading towards Henichesktown and to take up the defensive positions. Russian troops beefed up by 3 armored infantry fighting carriers began equipping engineering positions. Around 3.30 p.m.there was another helicopter-borne assault of60 Russian soldiers out of 6 helicopters in that area. In addition, it is known thatthe armored infantry fighting carriers convoyis moving nowtowardsStrilkove settlement along the Arabat Spit fromKamianskesettlement.

At the same time,in the course of negotiations betweenBerdyanskborder guard detachment command and Russian soldiers it was found that the purpose of their landing is supposedly "guarding to prevent possible terrorist attacks" on “Chornomornaftohaz” gas hydraulic station located in the area. There is noforced confrontation there at the moment. Details are beingspecified.
Ukrainian foreign mimistry report:
Statement of the MFA of Ukraine with respect to assault landing of the Russian Armed Forces in the Kherson region on March 15
http://mfa.gov.ua/en/press-center/news/ ... ij-oblasti" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine expresses its strong and categorical protest against the landing on March 15, 2014 near the village Strilkove, Kherson region of troops of the Russian Federation Armed Forces in a number of 80 military personnel, and seizure of the village Strilkove with the support of 4 helicopter gunships and 3 armored combat machines.

Ukraine Foreign Ministry declares the military invasion by Russia and demands the Russian side to immediately withdraw its military forces from the territory of Ukraine.

Ukraine reserves the right to use all necessary measures to stop the military invasion by Russia.
There are reports (which I can't find an authoritative source for) that a Ukrainian rapid-response force has repelled the incursion.

The best news report on the subject that I can find is here:
http://www.channel4.com/news/ukraine-so ... ean-border" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Ukraine unrest

Post by sheddi » Sat Mar 15, 2014 4:38 pm

Buzzfeed were present at a press conference held on behalf of the international observers who will be underwriting tomorrow's Crimean referendum.

With Outcome Already Assured, Western Observers Line Up To Cheers Crimean Referendum
http://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/with- ... e-up-to-ch" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Selected quotes follow; see the link for the whole article.
SIMFEROPOL, Ukraine — As Russian-occupied Crimea prepares for a secession referendum with an outcome its organizers boast is predetermined and with no hope of international recognition, a team of observers declared the vote a free, fair, and crushing blow to Western hegemony.

Speaking near-flawless Russian and repeating Russian talking points on the Ukrainian crisis word for word, a motley team of foreign election observers lined up to praise the referendum at a press conference Saturday evening. The observers, who included fringe European lawmakers and a former ally of an accused Serbian war criminal, insisted that Sunday’s election was being held in accordance with all international standards and slammed Western governments for attempting to stop it.
and
Asked by BuzzFeed if they had been invited by Russia, the observers insisted their trip had been paid for by various European union structures and they had not received any money from Moscow. The spectacle nonetheless felt like a plunge into the collective id of Russia Today (RT), which revels in showcasing fringe Western views to underscore Moscow’s talking points. The observers included a member of the far-right Hungarian party Jobbik, a member of the Greek Communist party, and a Finnish activist from Estonia who has said he wishes Vladimir Putin would rule Russia for 26 years.
and
Crimean prime minister Sergei Aksyonov, whose party got 4% of the vote in the last provincial election and whom lawmakers elected at gunpoint, has said that the referendum will return at least a 75% result in favor of the peninsula joining Russia. The only other option on the ballot calls for Crimea to declare effective independence from Ukraine.
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Re: Ukraine unrest

Post by sheddi » Sat Mar 15, 2014 4:52 pm

Meanwhile, someone thought tonight was a good night to mount a security sweep in the hotel Moscow, Timferopol, used by a good-sized contingent of the journalists in town to cover tomorrow's referendum.

Gunmen Storm Crimea Hotel Full of Reporters on Eve of Referendum
http://time.com/26320/gunmen-storm-crim ... eferendum/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
A day before the breakaway leaders of Crimea stage a referendum on their secession from Ukraine, roughly two dozen commandos took over a major hotel on Saturday night in the Crimean capital of Simferopol, where dozens of journalists — including a TIME correspondent — are staying.

Crimea’s police force said it was a training operation. The office of its separatist leader said it was a hunt for a cache of weapons. The local defense ministry said it was part of an “information war” with the Ukrainian government. But whatever it was, it resulted in roughly two dozen commandos taking over a major hotel on Saturday night in the Crimean capital of Simferopol.
More at the link.

I was mildly amused by this tweet by Shaun Walker, journalist for The Guardian:
https://twitter.com/shaunwalker7/status ... 9584050177" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
How to miss the news... Having nice glass of Pinot Grigio in a cafe while commandos appear to be storming my hotel.
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Re: Ukraine unrest

Post by blackhorse » Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:32 pm

Days Sheep
"We are not the worlds Police.

If former Soviet states are afraid of Russian aggression, let them come together and repel her. If the Ukraine, Estonia, Latvia, Poland, Lithuania, Belarus, etc united against Russia then they could put up a hell of a fight if Russia ever went hot against one of them.

Would they win?

Maybe.

But more likely they would make it to dangerous for Russia and to costly to fight them.

All without costing us anything, really.

I can't see how what is going on in the Ukraine is worth the blood of anyone that's not Ukrainian.

edit: I am an American. I am willing to defend America, and maybe her very close allies. Ukraine is not our ally. I understand their plight, and thats sad. But I have no desire to kill anyone for them, and even less of a desire to die for them."


1) We have an agreement to guarantee Ukraine's integrity and sovereignty. So our nation and the UK needs to do more or not make false agreements.
2) Ex Warsaw or Soviet nations rely on our agreements of protection. Our government has guaranteed these countries safety while pushed them to down size their militaries and reserve stocks in exchange for peace.
3) Poland and the Visegrad will be the only hope Ukraine has against further Russian aggression. If they can get Romania to join then it will definitely be a regional force.
4) I'm not for being the world police but a agreement already agreed to needs to be enforced. Either we keep our international agreements or we quit them. The worst part is our present president is one of the Senators that helped draw up the agreement and helped talk them into reducing their conventional arms stockpiles in exchange for US protection.

Which of "our closed allies" would you fight for?
Israel
Poland
Turkey
Germany
Baltic States (3)
France
Norway
UK
Italy
Japan
Taiwan
S Korea
Philippines

Just a small list of allies or nations with agreements with us.
Yes the list is huge.....and I agree it needs to be shortened considerably.
We can't just leave them to the wolves after promising them protection.
Yes they all need to become more militarily independent of us but it don't happen over night.

PS Before someone even attempts it......I have friends and family serving and lost a few in Iraq and Afghanistan. I would serve if again if allowed. Yes even for Ukraine

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Re: Ukraine unrest

Post by Kommander » Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:52 pm

Blackhorse I suggest that you do some research into the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances. This "treaty" does not contain any guarantees that the signatory countries will intervene militarily to protect Ukraine. Even if it did it was never ratified by congress and is therefore unenforceable. You can find the exact text of the agreement here.
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Re: Ukraine unrest

Post by Rev » Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:58 pm

The treaty was nothing more than false assurances so Ukraine could save face when they were forced to give up their nukes. I'm afraid it seems neither party had any intention of fulfilling them.
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Re: Ukraine unrest

Post by Darkhunter » Sat Mar 15, 2014 9:20 pm

blackhorse wrote:1) We have an agreement to guarantee Ukraine's integrity and sovereignty. So our nation and the UK needs to do more or not make false agreements.
Did Congress have a vote? You know like we are supposed to do when we have a potential war.
blackhorse wrote:2) Ex Warsaw or Soviet nations rely on our agreements of protection. Our government has guaranteed these countries safety while pushed them to down size their militaries and reserve stocks in exchange for peace.
Which ones did Congress vote on?
blackhorse wrote:3) Poland and the Visegrad will be the only hope Ukraine has against further Russian aggression. If they can get Romania to join then it will definitely be a regional force.
Not the concern of the US. I wish them the best of luck but again see number 1.
blackhorse wrote:4) I'm not for being the world police but a agreement already agreed to needs to be enforced. Either we keep our international agreements or we quit them. The worst part is our present president is one of the Senators that helped draw up the agreement and helped talk them into reducing their conventional arms stockpiles in exchange for US protection.
When did Congress ratify the agreement?
blackhorse wrote:Which of "our closed allies" would you fight for?
Israel
Poland
Turkey
Germany
Baltic States (3)
France
Norway
UK
Italy
Japan
Taiwan
S Korea
Philippines
I know we have an agreement ratified by Congress for S. Korea, Japan and possibly Germany. Not sure about the rest of them. Turkey is one of our few Muslim allies after the fall of Ottomans. Taiwan is an economic agreement If I remember correctly.

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Re: Ukraine unrest

Post by Tater Raider » Sat Mar 15, 2014 9:45 pm

I loved this thread before it began getting into a political discussion...

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Re: Ukraine unrest

Post by DarkAxel » Sat Mar 15, 2014 9:51 pm

Darkhunter wrote:
blackhorse wrote:1) We have an agreement to guarantee Ukraine's integrity and sovereignty. So our nation and the UK needs to do more or not make false agreements.
Did Congress have a vote? You know like we are supposed to do when we have a potential war.
blackhorse wrote:2) Ex Warsaw or Soviet nations rely on our agreements of protection. Our government has guaranteed these countries safety while pushed them to down size their militaries and reserve stocks in exchange for peace.
Which ones did Congress vote on?
blackhorse wrote:3) Poland and the Visegrad will be the only hope Ukraine has against further Russian aggression. If they can get Romania to join then it will definitely be a regional force.
Not the concern of the US. I wish them the best of luck but again see number 1.
blackhorse wrote:4) I'm not for being the world police but a agreement already agreed to needs to be enforced. Either we keep our international agreements or we quit them. The worst part is our present president is one of the Senators that helped draw up the agreement and helped talk them into reducing their conventional arms stockpiles in exchange for US protection.
When did Congress ratify the agreement?
blackhorse wrote:Which of "our closed allies" would you fight for?
Israel
Poland
Turkey
Germany
Baltic States (3)
France
Norway
UK
Italy
Japan
Taiwan
S Korea
Philippines
I know we have an agreement ratified by Congress for S. Korea, Japan and possibly Germany. Not sure about the rest of them. Turkey is one of our few Muslim allies after the fall of Ottomans. Taiwan is an economic agreement If I remember correctly.
Most of Europe is covered under NATO. Congress did indeed ratify the North Atlantic Treaty, and most of those nations DID live up to their end for us after 9/11 with the ISAF in Afghanistan. In fact, this was the first and only time Article 5 of the NAT was ever invoked. It would be real shitty of us if we bailed on Poland or the Baltic States if Russia decided to pull some Crimea type shit with them.

As for Ukraine, I don't know. I do have some serious questions about the Ukrainian Interim Government. A large number of the cabinet members are either members of, or linked to, groups like Svoboda and Right Sector. Purging the ultra-nationalist and openly fascist elements of the Maidan movement from the government would seriously undermine the flimsy justification Russia used to seize Crimea.

I really do feel sorry for the average Ukrainian. It's obvious that both the Revolution and the Crimea Crisis were orchestrated by outside influences, and it becoming increasingly clear that no one is really speaking for the people of Ukraine. At least to me.
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Indeed. This thread is bordering on open political BS.
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blackhorse
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Re: Ukraine unrest

Post by blackhorse » Sun Mar 16, 2014 4:47 am

Kommander wrote:The whole of Crimea is not worth the bones of a single Alabamian grenadier.

Sometimes you have to give up on the "good fight" if it means preventing a wider conflict that could easily spiral out of control. I wonder what the English of 1918 felt about their 1839 treaty with Belgium.
Would love to know since when does US forces of any service have a "grenadier"?
Understand what you meant but they don't exist in US services. Just saying

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Re: Ukraine unrest

Post by blackhorse » Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:04 am

Darkhunter wrote:
blackhorse wrote:1) We have an agreement to guarantee Ukraine's integrity and sovereignty. So our nation and the UK needs to do more or not make false agreements.
Did Congress have a vote? You know like we are supposed to do when we have a potential war.
blackhorse wrote:2) Ex Warsaw or Soviet nations rely on our agreements of protection. Our government has guaranteed these countries safety while pushed them to down size their militaries and reserve stocks in exchange for peace.
Which ones did Congress vote on?
blackhorse wrote:3) Poland and the Visegrad will be the only hope Ukraine has against further Russian aggression. If they can get Romania to join then it will definitely be a regional force.
Not the concern of the US. I wish them the best of luck but again see number 1.
blackhorse wrote:4) I'm not for being the world police but a agreement already agreed to needs to be enforced. Either we keep our international agreements or we quit them. The worst part is our present president is one of the Senators that helped draw up the agreement and helped talk them into reducing their conventional arms stockpiles in exchange for US protection.
When did Congress ratify the agreement?
blackhorse wrote:Which of "our closed allies" would you fight for?
Israel
Poland
Turkey
Germany
Baltic States (3)
France
Norway
UK
Italy
Japan
Taiwan
S Korea
Philippines
I know we have an agreement ratified by Congress for S. Korea, Japan and possibly Germany. Not sure about the rest of them. Turkey is one of our few Muslim allies after the fall of Ottomans. Taiwan is an economic agreement If I remember correctly.
1) The President has the power to deploy troops without Congressional approval. He can also start hostilities if defending a treaty.

2) Good point......read it when the crisis started but can't remember all the details.

3) My point on this was to show you others will fill the void since NATO is toothless. I personally hope this is the death knell of NATO. Would be nice Europe picked up their own defense costs and responsibilities again.

4) Refer to 2)

As for the list of countries.....all the European nations including Turkey are NATO members and thus covered under NATO.
The others have different agreements and treaties.

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Re: Ukraine unrest

Post by Kommander » Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:16 am

Blackhorse it's a modification of a Bismarck quote regarding pre the WWI balkins. I can't take credit for it as I saw it on someone's twitter a few days ago.

"Der ganze Balkan ist nicht die gesunden Knochen eines einzigen pommerschen Grenadiers wert."

Turns out that they were worth several million.
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