MIT Active Shooter

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Re: MIT Active Shooter

Post by Hoppy » Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:14 pm

angelofwar wrote:Legality of a scanner is 100% any where in the US. Think of it as a "freedom of information" thing. They are public servants, and we have the right to know.
Scanners are 100% legal, any (unencrypted) radio signal put out there can be received by anyone with the ability to do so. However you need proper FCC license to broadcast or interfere with signals.

The supposed super secrete squirrel radio channel shut down was most likely a regional channel meaning for multiple agencies to communicate for daily issues which would by default not be encoded. Tac and Detective channels are generally encoded

EDIT TO ADD UNENCRYPTED
Last edited by Hoppy on Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MIT Active Shooter

Post by phalanx » Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:22 pm

lowjohn19 wrote:Reddit, Twitter, and zs were at times hours ahead of network news, however, there was some less than accurate information due to difficulties understanding scanner info. Still overall good reporting.
The main battle was non-vetted information. I have no capacity to check sources, and only heard what the police/ems folks were broadcasting on non-encrypted nets. Overall I think reddit did the best job of cataloging the events and editing incorrect info. I got about 4 hours sleep, but it was worth it to know what was going on.
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Re: MIT Active Shooter

Post by angelofwar » Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:23 pm

Hoppy wrote:
angelofwar wrote:Legality of a scanner is 100% any where in the US. Think of it as a "freedom of information" thing. They are public servants, and we have the right to know.
Scanners are 100% legal, any radio signal put out there can be received by anyone with the ability to do so. However you need proper FCC license to broadcast or interfere with signals.

The supposed super secrete squirrel radio channel shut down was most likely a regional channel meaning for multiple agencies to communicate for daily issues which would by default not be encoded. Tac and Detective channels are generally encoded
Yes...encoded channels are legal to listen in on as well, if you have the "FCC approved" (read: non-modified)equipment...that's why the radio mfg's stay one step ahead of the radio community to give the "elite LE" encoded transmissions. But these systems are fragile and costly, which is why the bulk of them still use regular systems. Plus, the tactical channels are usually weaker than the regular channels (2-watt compared to 4-5 watt's), and the wattage is the primary factor in range, next to LOS. Most CB's are 4-5 watts, FRS 2.5 watts, and GMRS 4-watts, IIRC?
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Re: MIT Active Shooter

Post by Hoppy » Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:28 pm

angelofwar wrote:
Hoppy wrote:
angelofwar wrote:Legality of a scanner is 100% any where in the US. Think of it as a "freedom of information" thing. They are public servants, and we have the right to know.
Scanners are 100% legal, any radio signal put out there can be received by anyone with the ability to do so. However you need proper FCC license to broadcast or interfere with signals.

The supposed super secrete squirrel radio channel shut down was most likely a regional channel meaning for multiple agencies to communicate for daily issues which would by default not be encoded. Tac and Detective channels are generally encoded
Yes...encoded channels are legal to listen in on as well, if you have the "FCC approved" (read: non-modified)equipment...that's why the radio mfg's stay one step ahead of the radio community to give the "elite LE" encoded transmissions. But these systems are fragile and costly, which is why the bulk of them still use regular systems. Plus, the tactical channels are usually weaker than the regular channels (2-watt compared to 4-5 watt's), and the wattage is the primary factor in range, next to LOS. Most CB's are 4-5 watts, FRS 2.5 watts, and GMRS 4-watts, IIRC?
well i edited a bit. you would need the open broadcast to listen legaly, i believe code breaking is still illegal.

I dont know enough about radios to really talk in depth but my understanding is if its broadcasted unencoded its open info. if its broadcasted encoded you can not use any kind of code breaker software.
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Re: MIT Active Shooter

Post by MaconCJ7 » Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:29 pm

Hoppy wrote: The supposed super secrete squirrel radio channel shut down was most likely a regional channel meaning for multiple agencies to communicate for daily issues which would by default not be encoded. Tac and Detective channels are generally encoded

EDIT TO ADD UNENCRYPTED
I'll play devil's advocate and say that's not 100% true. Part of P25 implementation is common encryption. Throwing on a new encryption doesn't take much effort, and for an event like this, a couple of guys running around with keying devices would have had everyone on the same encryption in just a couple of hours. If they have OTA rekey, it would have been even quicker. The only thing stopping them from keeping normal comms on the open net is the law, not abilities. Once they go encrypted, you wouldn't be able to figure out the encryption until long after the event is over.

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Re: MIT Active Shooter

Post by MaconCJ7 » Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:31 pm

You can use whatever code breaking software you want. If you can break the code, you'll likely have yourself a new six figure job. The encryption is not NSA supported. It's generated by some dude that smashes buttons until an acceptable code is created. Crack it if you can.
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Re: MIT Active Shooter

Post by DarkAxel » Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:43 pm

Hoppy wrote:
well i edited a bit. you would need the open broadcast to listen legaly, i believe code breaking is still illegal.

I dont know enough about radios to really talk in depth but my understanding is if its broadcasted unencoded its open info. if its broadcasted encoded you can not use any kind of code breaker software.
I was under the impression that if the encryption software was commercially available (i.e. not classified) than anyone who could crack the encryption was free to do so without fear of legal repercussions (provided that the signal was legally available, i.e. police transmissions intercepted with scanners), but attempting to crack classified cyphers is uniformly illegal in the US and a direct violation of numerous national security laws.

But since the cyphers used in encryption software may be considered copyrighted or trademarked intellectual property, then the same laws that apply to reverse-engineering software and Terms of service agreements might come into play here. I understand the laws on that have changed in the last 13 years.

Thoughts?

EDIT: Kinda On-topic:

thanks to good timing and AKFTW posting the scanner feed in this thread, I got to listen in to the in-the-clear transmissions during the initial chase and the first gun battle, and I didn't have to live in Boston nor did I have to spend the money for a scanner setup or invest the time needed to learn how to use one. I also suffered minimal network interruptions and only had to reload the feed when network traffic got high. I'm thinking it would be prudent for preppers to find out what sites offer local scanner feeds and bookmark them.
Last edited by DarkAxel on Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MIT Active Shooter

Post by angelofwar » Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:45 pm

MaconCJ7 wrote:You can use whatever code breaking software you want. If you can break the code, you'll likely have yourself a new six figure job. The encryption is not NSA supported. It's generated by some dude that smashes buttons until an acceptable code is created. Crack it if you can.
True. Some them have pre-set encryption, while others can be encrypted on the spot, and the other radios can be quickly and easily encrypted to match that. So, yeah, nearly impossible to break. But, it's not illegal to listen to "public" tx's. It may be illegal in some areas to re-broadcast that info, or use it to A) Perform a crime, or B) Evade capture from a committed crime. Had "white hat dude" used a scanner to evade the police, that could have very easily been another charge against him.
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Re: MIT Active Shooter

Post by TacAir » Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:19 pm

DarkAxel wrote:
Hoppy wrote:
well i edited a bit. you would need the open broadcast to listen legaly, i believe code breaking is still illegal.

I dont know enough about radios to really talk in depth but my understanding is if its broadcasted unencoded its open info. if its broadcasted encoded you can not use any kind of code breaker software.
I was under the impression that if the encryption software was commercially available (i.e. not classified) than anyone who could crack the encryption was free to do so without fear of legal repercussions (provided that the signal was legally available, i.e. police transmissions intercepted with scanners), but attempting to crack classified cyphers is uniformly illegal in the US and a direct violation of numerous national security laws.

But since the cyphers used in encryption software may be considered copyrighted or trademarked intellectual property, then the same laws that apply to reverse-engineering software and Terms of service agreements might come into play here. I understand the laws on that have changed in the last 13 years.

Thoughts?

EDIT: Kinda On-topic:

thanks to good timing and AKFTW posting the scanner feed in this thread, I got to listen in to the in-the-clear transmissions during the initial chase and the first gun battle, and I didn't have to live in Boston nor did I have to spend the money for a scanner setup or invest the time needed to learn how to use one. I also suffered minimal network interruptions and only had to reload the feed when network traffic got high. I'm thinking it would be prudent for preppers to find out what sites offer local scanner feeds and bookmark them.

An interesting monograph on crypto laws...

http://www.hg.org/encryption-law.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: MIT Active Shooter

Post by DarkAxel » Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:24 pm

BTW, I started a thread to hopefully split the scanner/net feed discussion away fro this thread and hopefully restore this one to directly related news:

http://www.zombiehunters.org/forum/view ... 6&t=106387
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Re: MIT Active Shooter

Post by angelofwar » Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:57 pm

DarkAxel wrote:BTW, I started a thread to hopefully split the scanner/net feed discussion away fro this thread and hopefully restore this one to directly related news:

http://www.zombiehunters.org/forum/view ... 6&t=106387

Thanks DA. I will post in the AM. Busy, and eventful day...will post in the am.
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Re: MIT Active Shooter

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:02 am

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Seems appropriate.

RE: decompression, seriously disconnect from the web. I spent most of last night in my shop playing with guns, building a shelf, and having nothing by my cell (in case of spontaneous combustion) and a non-internet connected media computer. If someone tried to text me about it, call wanting to talk about it, whatever I just didn't respond, or in one case sent a not-nice photo back to the sender. Tragedy is out there 24/7, but everyone is much more connected, aware, and the media is zero'd in on tragedy and big scary terrorists right now.

To take a page from a friend's facebook, I'd say now is time to emulate the British during the Battle of Britain (and the rest of the World Wars where they got the shit shelled/bombed out of them and kept calm and soldiered on) and keep goign to work. Don't ignore bad things, but sure as hell don't let them rule you. Let me share this:
"Criminal acts intended or calculated to provoke a state of terror in the general public, a group of persons or particular persons for political purposes are in any circumstance unjustifiable, whatever the considerations of a political, philosophical, ideological, racial, ethnic, religious or any other nature that may be invoked to justify them."
That's from the UN general Assembly's definition of Terrorism. All else be damned, interruption of the daily life of the American people is the goal of terrorism on US soil. Letting that fear, that terror, that worry overcome you, drain you, rule you will only serve to empower other groups.

This will not be the last bombing, nor is it the first. More people were killed in the Waco-area fertilizer factory, in DUIs, by bees than by the actions of a couple of nutjobs with some pipe bombs of stolen weapons. Only thing we can do is help those who need it, and pack our bags (figuratively) for the next one. Time wasted screaming for blood can be better spent preparing and helping other prepare.

Edited because nightbrain is teh dumbrain and we could really learn from Churchill's Londoners.
Last edited by Doctorr Fabulous on Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MIT Active Shooter

Post by Zombie309 » Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:59 am

Well said.
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Re: MIT Active Shooter

Post by Crakkerjakk » Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:09 am

Yeah, that's some damn fine speechifyin', Doc.
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Re: MIT Active Shooter

Post by Red Tamarillo » Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:21 am

But maybe if the Reddits had had pics from 12 mins (rather than 2 hrs) before the bombing they probably would have spotted the black backpack. I guess I shouldn't have been surprised they were brothers, as after the big nose Indian student false story I tried to remember which one had the big nose as both seemed too.
I guess that's the thing with multi (bad) actor events- it's going to be friends and associates working together. Some friends and associates are relatives.

I do agree about living one's life so the evil people don't win. Remembering most people in this world aren't evil. The mass of people just want to live their lives well and look after their loved ones.

One prep thing from this tragedy- one of the evildoers was a boxer/golden gloves/martial artist, the other a wrestler (like in 9/11 how some had martial arts training). So if you're playing the whatifs i.e. what if someone had seen something and tried to intervene- it would pay to have your own fitness/fighting skills.
Surely they would also have carried pistols under their jackets?
There will be comment on what firearms they used, and where they got them from- legal or illegal.

The homeowner looking under the tarp on the boat after seeing the blood trail. If that's true, that's not smart.

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Re: MIT Active Shooter

Post by KentsOkay » Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:37 am

I'm not gonna lie, had I seen a gun and interpreted it as a 7-11 hold up and attempted to intervene, I'd probably be dead right now, unless I got a shank in anyway.
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Re: MIT Active Shooter

Post by Red Tamarillo » Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:47 am

The latest news is saying the 711 was not him/them.

On a side note, how many kids in the US wear caps backwards? Is it common?
Someone on another site pointed out that one strap carry of backpacks is common with students. But then it shouldn't surprise us that a lot of the perps are students, as that's an age group where problems are the end of the world, and rigid viewpoints can form.

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Re: MIT Active Shooter

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:50 am

Red Tamarillo wrote:The latest news is saying the 711 was not him/them.

On a side note, how many kids in the US wear caps backwards? Is it common?
Someone on another site pointed out that one strap carry of backpacks is common with students. But then it shouldn't surprise us that a lot of the perps are students, as that's an age group where problems are the end of the world, and rigid viewpoints can form.
Hit and miss. Depends on the crowd for both. FAct of the matter is that, like most shitheads with a modicum of sense, they knew how to disappear because they lived among the crowd they wanted to disappear into for years.
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Re: MIT Active Shooter

Post by LivelyToaster » Sat Apr 20, 2013 5:05 am

Just something to add, the tan pants, boots, black coats, and bags guys that were obvious cops or .mil, were actually from Craft International. .mil Contractors founded by Chris Kyle, Late and former Seal.

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Re: MIT Active Shooter

Post by Red Tamarillo » Sat Apr 20, 2013 6:01 am

On the positive note, pilsung and major havoc in the bombing thread had that good quote from Fred Rogers:

There was something else my mother did that I've always remembered: "Always look for the helpers," she'd tell me. "There's always someone who is trying to help." I did, and I came to see that the world is full of doctors and nurses, police and firemen, volunteers, neighbors and friends who are ready to jump in to help when things go wrong.

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Re: MIT Active Shooter

Post by sheddi » Sat Apr 20, 2013 6:18 am

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:To take a page from a friend's facebook, I'd say now is time to emulate the British during the Battle of Britain (and the rest of the World Wars where they got the shit shelled/bombed out of them and kept calm and soldiered on) and keep goign to work. Don't ignore bad things, but sure as hell don't let them rule you. Let me share this:
"Criminal acts intended or calculated to provoke a state of terror in the general public, a group of persons or particular persons for political purposes are in any circumstance unjustifiable, whatever the considerations of a political, philosophical, ideological, racial, ethnic, religious or any other nature that may be invoked to justify them."
That's from the UN general Assembly's definition of Terrorism. All else be damned, interruption of the daily life of the American people is the goal of terrorism on US soil. Letting that fear, that terror, that worry overcome you, drain you, rule you will only serve to empower other groups.
In a similar vein, this article from The Atlantic, written before there were publicly-announced suspects:
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/arc ... on/275014/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Atlantic wrote:How well this attack succeeds depends much less on what happened in Boston than by our reactions in the coming weeks and months. Terrorism isn't primarily a crime against people or property. It's a crime against our minds, using the deaths of innocents and destruction of property as accomplices. When we react from fear ... the terrorists succeed, even if their attacks fail. But when we refuse to be terrorized, when we're indomitable in the face of terror, the terrorists fail, even if their attacks succeed.
I got there from a similar article on rt.com written by Annie Machon - a former British spook - but that one was way too political to quote. You can no doubt find it if you wish.
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Re: MIT Active Shooter

Post by Red Tamarillo » Sat Apr 20, 2013 6:20 am

LivelyToaster wrote:Just something to add, the tan pants, boots, black coats, and bags guys that were obvious cops or .mil, were actually from Craft International. .mil Contractors founded by Chris Kyle, Late and former Seal.
Is it a good idea for them to be so obvious? (You can buy their hat from their website).
i.e. is it normal for civilian contractors dressed like in country civilian contractors to be at events in the US?
Surely uniformed cops and sneaky grey men/women is a good blend.

On another note this case really showed how we couldn't Sherlock Holmes anything about ethnicity and rule out anyone from the first released security video which had poor colour balance. Black hat was even mistakenly id-ed as an African guy at one stage, and you know looking at the vid he could have been, he could have been anglo, he could have been asian, he could have been anyone. If you can't rule out any ethnicity from a surveillance vid that's not a good camera. You want to at least decrease the number of suspects to less than 7 billion.
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Re: MIT Active Shooter

Post by Chirpy » Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:04 am

I find it ironic that with the most oppressive police presence I've ever seen in my lifetime, the 4th Amendment shredded by house to house searches, it took an OCD homeowner checking on his boat to find the perp. All the armored cars and tacticool gear was useless.

And what's up with the camo SWAT uniforms? Lotta jungle and vegetation in Boston to blend in to lately?

The militarization of our police forces to keep us safe from domestic terror gets an "F" for many, many reasons. How do you evacuate if they lock everyone indoors?

Lots of things to think about here besides the obvious surface issues.


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Re: MIT Active Shooter

Post by Stercutus » Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:15 am

Chirpy wrote:I find it ironic that with the most oppressive police presence I've ever seen in my lifetime, the 4th Amendment shredded by house to house searches, it took an OCD homeowner checking on his boat to find the perp. All the armored cars and tacticool gear was useless.

And what's up with the camo SWAT uniforms? Lotta jungle and vegetation in Boston to blend in to lately?

The militarization of our police forces to keep us safe from domestic terror gets an "F" for many, many reasons. How do you evacuate if they lock everyone indoors?

Lots of things to think about here besides the obvious surface issues.


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You should be more specific. Did they get the "F" for catching the bad guys without any one other than a whole bunch of cops being hurt or killed or did they get the "F" because people had to wisely stay indoors while murdering terrorist bombers were running the streets throwing bombs around and shooting people?

Oh and scanners rock. Everyone should have at least a hand held one with battery back up. I bet sales jump after this.
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