Seattle: The Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

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Re: Seattle: The Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

Post by RoneKiln » Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:31 pm

Halfapint wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:41 pm

In other Seattle news, a person driving a car drop up the exit ramp, onto a closed freeway, striking 2 protesters. One died yesterday and the other is in serious condition. This is getting some coverage, from national news, whike other parts of are not.
The coverage of this one is real weird.

First I saw reported a white supremacist ran barricades to go the wrong way down the freeway to murder protesters.

Then it turns out the driver is black. I watch the video, and he's not going the wrong way (though today a national news agency was still reporting he was). The only barricades visible in the video are 2 black cars stopped in the freeway. The driver stopped shortly after hitting the black clad protesters in the dark and made every effort to cooperate with police, and asked if the people he hit would be ok.

The driver is now being charged with vehicular homicide, vehicular assault, and reckless driving.

As far as I can see from the video, he blew past those stalled cars faster than was reasonable, and deserves the charge of reckless driving and probably manslaughter. The other charges seem to be rooted more in the earlier mistaken media reports than any evidence that I can currently see. I'm left wondering if the people writing the articles even watch the video or just keep quoting the earlier mistaken articles.

Now I am seeing a growing hysteria over "extremists weaponizing cars" among many I know in Seattle and this is an instance many are pointing to.

The people I know living in the former nation of CHOP and regularly visiting there went silent about it on social media several weeks ago. The conspiracy mindset several were starting to display was very disturbing to me. Those are the same people now ranting about weaponized cars and still claiming this particular incident was a white supremacist.

I've decided not to get back on social media anymore to follow their thoughts on this. It's not healthy for me to see former friends calling for me to be sent to a reeducation camp.

That neighborhood used to be a second home to me. Part of me really wishes I had gone to visit and see some of this when it was happening. Mostly, I have no interest in ever seeing it again.
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Re: Seattle: The Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

Post by RonnyRonin » Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:24 am

"weaponized cars" are an interesting phenomena I have not quite gathered my thoughts on.

After Nice France, and Toronto Canada, it seemed the genie was out of the bottle, in sort of a "why hasn't anyone thought of this before?" sort of way. I have retreated a bit from the news, but in general that trend doesn't seem to have continued in a big way.

After Charlottesville, street protesters seemed to realize just how vulnerable they were to a mundane, every day appliance. Some of the extreme reactions protesters have had to cars recently seems to be explicable in this lens, but the eagerness with which the videos show people jumping in front of cars runs counter to that fear. In videos from all over the country you can see a strange, "walk backwards while I pretend I can push this car with my hands" stance that I am at a loss to explain, but seems very consistent. Every interaction between walking protesters and a car seems to have some realization that the potential for a tragic end is there, but there seems no shortage of people willing to take the bet and jump on hoods or push on bumpers. While the urge to scatter from a fast moving car needs no explanation; I am seeing the opposite reaction for a slow moving but honking car where the crowds seem to swarm. Its like they tacitly recognize the car as an immediate and dire threat, but the strategy to deal with it is incomprehensible to me.

Of course some news sources are eager to paint a political light on car and protester interactions, but the few cases I have seen explored in depth seem to paint a more mundane picture of "motorist confused and panicked by strange situation." I'm sure there have been malicious intentions from some motorists but its hard to say how many at this point.

Some local guys had a long talk about car and pedestrian interactions; of course for cars "u-turn and leave in a hurry" is the best bet, and for people on foot "get out of the way" is the ideal situation; but for the corner cases where both are prevented there seems to be a lot of no-win situations available. my main observation is how hesitant motorists are to deviate from their course once they have mentally committed; many of the videos show wide open streets with lots of room to maneuver away from people, but the thought of quickly reversing; blocking traffic with your hazards on, or doing an "illegal" u-turn to avoid a crowd I don't think occurs to a lot of people in the moment. I myself have experienced this driving tunnel vision more then a few times, and just hope I could snap out of it in a more dire case.

Prepper takeaway;
1) don't drive into crowds if you can help it
2) don't challenge newton's laws when your competitor outweighs you by 3000 lbs
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Re: Seattle: The Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

Post by NT2C » Thu Jul 09, 2020 1:01 am

RonnyRonin wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:24 am
Some local guys had a long talk about car and pedestrian interactions; of course for cars "u-turn and leave in a hurry" is the best bet, and for people on foot "get out of the way" is the ideal situation; but for the corner cases where both are prevented there seems to be a lot of no-win situations available. my main observation is how hesitant motorists are to deviate from their course once they have mentally committed; many of the videos show wide open streets with lots of room to maneuver away from people, but the thought of quickly reversing; blocking traffic with your hazards on, or doing an "illegal" u-turn to avoid a crowd I don't think occurs to a lot of people in the moment. I myself have experienced this driving tunnel vision more then a few times, and just hope I could snap out of it in a more dire case.

Prepper takeaway;
1) don't drive into crowds if you can help it
2) don't challenge newton's laws when your competitor outweighs you by 3000 lbs
Basic Evasive Driving Techniques - OSAC (PDF file

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Re: Seattle: The Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

Post by Stercutus » Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:54 am

While the urge to scatter from a fast moving car needs no explanation; I am seeing the opposite reaction for a slow moving but honking car where the crowds seem to swarm. Its like they tacitly recognize the car as an immediate and dire threat, but the strategy to deal with it is incomprehensible to me.
What we are seeing is raw and unvarnished groupthink.
Groupthink is a psychological phenomenon that occurs within a group of people in which the desire for harmony or conformity in the group results in an irrational or dysfunctional decision-making outcome. Cohesiveness, or the desire for cohesiveness, in a group may produce a tendency among its members to agree at all costs. This causes the group to minimize conflict and reach a consensus decision without critical evaluation.

Groupthink requires individuals to avoid raising controversial issues or alternative solutions, and there is loss of individual creativity, uniqueness and independent thinking. The dysfunctional group dynamics of the "ingroup" produces an "illusion of invulnerability" (an inflated certainty that the right decision has been made). Thus the "ingroup" significantly overrates its own abilities in decision-making and significantly underrates the abilities of its opponents (the "outgroup").
The protestors are relying on everyone else to be compliant with their wishes to take over public right of ways and respect them. They believe that they are right in what they are doing and therefore no one can stop them. This simply isn't the case. If the police were not out there protecting them there would be hundreds dead by now from getting hit by cars or the protests on public roads would long be over.


I've decided not to get back on social media anymore to follow their thoughts on this. It's not healthy for me to see former friends calling for me to be sent to a reeducation camp.
But of course.
Furthermore, groupthink can produce dehumanizing actions against the "outgroup".
That is what get for having independent thought. That must be stopped at all costs.
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Re: Seattle: The Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

Post by Johnnie_T » Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:25 am

I know exactly what you guys mean. My wife is from Tacoma and I was stationed at Fort Lewis for several years while on active duty. We have lots of friends and family out that way...or thought we did. The division over this incident is so bad that the shit we’ve been called by family is worse than any language I used while in Iraq or Afghanistan.

We were considering moving back out there. It’s a great place with a lot to offer. After this CHAZ mess though, and the division it’s caused, I’m pretty sure we wouldn’t be welcome.

And a huge +1 on dropping social media. I did the same last year and it’s been a massive improvement.
Last edited by Johnnie_T on Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Seattle: The Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

Post by raptor2 » Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:34 am

RoneKiln wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:31 pm

I've decided not to get back on social media anymore to follow their thoughts on this. It's not healthy for me to see former friends calling for me to be sent to a reeducation camp.
I too have seen this public call for "re-education camps". Not just by the extreme end but by people who should know better.

These are the same people who publicly approve of their version of "ethnic cleansing" and will happily load anyone who stands in the way of their "correct" POV into a box car for extermination. The difference now is that that sort of call to violence is not only considered acceptable but in a perverse sort of way calls for genocide are deemed "moral".

Social Media is an echo chamber for these calls of violence, hate and intolerance. With any luck it may act as a pressure relief valve, but I would not count on that.

BTW me personally; I take threats written or verbal seriously regardless of the media and adjust my actions as required.
Stercutus wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:54 am
If the police were not out there protecting them there would be hundreds dead by now from getting hit by cars or the protests on public roads would long be over.

There was a local protest in which several out of town "organizers" walked up a ramp to an elevated expressway and were arrested. The locals did not follow them and disavowed the people involved in this. The locals knew that walking on an expressway was great way to squished and in fact in LA the law indemnifies a motorist exercising reasonable care who hits a pedestrian such a roadway.
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Re: Seattle: The Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

Post by Stercutus » Thu Jul 09, 2020 2:38 pm

The locals did not follow them and disavowed the people involved in this. The locals knew that walking on an expressway was great way to squished and in fact in LA the law indemnifies a motorist exercising reasonable care who hits a pedestrian such a roadway.
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Re: Seattle: The Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

Post by tony d tiger » Mon Jul 13, 2020 12:10 am

Postscript - while Seattle's CHOP/CHAZ has dropped from news cycle and the zone disassembled and the precinct preoccupied - life is certainly not back to normal. "Protesters" from out-of-state are still agitating crowds - a couple of "street medics" arrested after an Olympia Trader Joe's demonstration; multiple incidents of shutting down streets in Olympia and Lacey; and today that escalated to an assault with a collapsible baton (and suspect arrested).

These street-side sign waivers can quickly morph into a traffic jam or worse, situational awareness and knowing alternate routes is normal for some folks, but I know I can improve my habit of closing the distance between cars to leave more room to maneuver out of line. Might get a can of bear spray too.
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Re: Seattle: The Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

Post by RoneKiln » Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:44 pm

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-ne ... e-forward/

And now protestors and a faction of the city council are trying to recall the mayor for allowing the police to use common riot control measures. I don't see evidence this is over specific instances of overreaction by the police. I do believe there were instances of over reaction. This attempt at a recall appears to be solely for using common antiriot measures.

Numerous city council members have also publicly voiced support for reducing police funds by 50%. I suspect they just need to hammer out where those freed up funds will go.

A related tangent: several years ago Seattle started taxing firearms and ammo at an exhorbitant rate to raise money to combat gun violence. Nearly every gun store left town. I'm pretty sure there's only one gun store left within city limits and not s ingle training facility. That's a moderate annoyance for most people. There's also a growing number of people in Seattle that don't drive and rely on public transportation. That is more than a moderate inconvenience for them.

I suspect the lack of gun stores and training facilities will compound the symptoms of defunding police.
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Re: Seattle: The Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

Post by Stercutus » Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:45 pm

RoneKiln wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:44 pm
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-ne ... e-forward/

A related tangent: several years ago Seattle started taxing firearms and ammo at an exhorbitant rate to raise money to combat gun violence. Nearly every gun store left town. I'm pretty sure there's only one gun store left within city limits and not s ingle training facility. That's a moderate annoyance for most people. There's also a growing number of people in Seattle that don't drive and rely on public transportation. That is more than a moderate inconvenience for them.

I suspect the lack of gun stores and training facilities will compound the symptoms of defunding police.
Google says there are 60 places that sell guns in Seattle. I'm not sure if they are all in the city limits or not but most appear to be.
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Re: Seattle: The Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

Post by RoneKiln » Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:52 am

Stercutus wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:45 pm
RoneKiln wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:44 pm
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-ne ... e-forward/

A related tangent: several years ago Seattle started taxing firearms and ammo at an exhorbitant rate to raise money to combat gun violence. Nearly every gun store left town. I'm pretty sure there's only one gun store left within city limits and not s ingle training facility. That's a moderate annoyance for most people. There's also a growing number of people in Seattle that don't drive and rely on public transportation. That is more than a moderate inconvenience for them.

I suspect the lack of gun stores and training facilities will compound the symptoms of defunding police.
Google says there are 60 places that sell guns in Seattle. I'm not sure if they are all in the city limits or not but most appear to be.
Odd. I double checked, and for me google shows one gun store and one gunsmith that's a seperate business. An article also popped up indicating the one remaining gunstore is considering moving out of town. Though now that I look closer at it, it's from 2017. If they've not moved by now, they probably won't. There might be a few pawn shops not coming up for me.

Two years after the tax went into effect (2017), that one gun store provided 80% that was collected.
https://komonews.com/news/local/state-s ... al-gun-tax

I recall a lot of talk about stores moving out of city limits, and I think they followed through. A single store accounting for roughly 80% of all ammo and gun sales in a city the size of Seattle is crazy. Google showed an article from the Seattle times from 2016 about gun stores moving due to the tax, but apparently I've used up my free articles for the month from them so I can't read it. I'm too lazy to research anymore than that 2 minute search.

There's a lot of businesses in surrounding towns. So it's only an inconvenience to those that drive. For those that don't drive, it's a serious hurdle.
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Re: Seattle: The Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

Post by Stercutus » Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:38 am

Here is the top ten list I got. IDK what is in the city limits but the map looks like they all are.
Gun Doctor Seattle
4.7
(3) · Gun shop
Closed ⋅ Opens 10AM · (206) 753-9374

Outdoor Emporium
4.4
(645) · Sporting goods store
1701 4th Ave S #1514
Closed ⋅ Opens 10AM · (206) 624-6550

"Strong focus on fishing and hunting hear, including quality firearms ..."

Palace Jewelry & Loan
3.3
(30) · Pawn shop
1420 1st Ave · Near the Gum Wall
Closed ⋅ Opens 10AM · (206) 624-7962

"Nothing but great experiences buying guns and pocket knives."

Lowpriceguns.com
4.0
(165) · Gun shop
13433 NE 20th St suite i
Closed ⋅ Opens 11AM · (425) 614-4867

Top Guns Inc
2.7
(25) · Gun shop
16053 Aurora Ave N
Closed ⋅ Opens 11:30AM · (877) 585-9037

Lynnwood Gun and Ammunition
3.9
(210) · Gun shop
20829 Hwy 99 # A
Closed ⋅ Opens 11AM · (425) 640-3999

Wade's Eastside Guns
3.7
(308) · Gun shop
13570 Bel-Red Rd
Closed ⋅ Opens 10AM · (425) 649-5995
Low-key facility offering an indoor shooting range, gun rentals & rifle & handgun training classes.

2nd Amendment Industries
4.6
(23) · Gun shop
1299 156th Ave NE #170 · In Pacific Village Center
Closed ⋅ Opens 5:30PM · (425) 503-2767

Federal Army & Navy Surplus Inc
4.5
(578) · Sporting goods store
2112 1st Ave
Closed ⋅ Opens 9:30AM · (206) 443-1818
Family-run military-surplus store for new & used items, collectibles & camping & survival gear.
In-store shopping· Curbside pickup

Shoreline Tactical
4.1
(21) · Gun shop
1633 N 197th Pl
Closed ⋅ Opens 9AM · (206) 533-1632

West Coast Armory Indoor Range
4.5
(374) · Gun shop
13216 SE 32nd St
Closed ⋅ Opens 11AM · (425) 641-2877

"Only for gun store: friendly and co
nvenient."
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Re: Seattle: The Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

Post by RoneKiln » Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:22 pm

Many of those are in nearby towns, and not in Seattle. A few are actually quite some distance from Seattle and would take all day to get to with public transit if you don't own a car. I've purchased from most of them over the years. One that is in Seattle didn't come up for me (thanks for listing it, I'll have to check it out and let some friends know about it), and one was listed as being a gunsmith but not a gun store (they may sell guns, i just assumed that would be advertised if they did).

So I now know of 3 business left in Seattle that have to do with firearms, one of them a gunsmith. That's not much. I have significantly more than that within a 10 minute drive of me in a small college town, as well as several gunsmiths.

Training facilities are also extremely limited in that area (every one I know of is on your list and outside Seattle). I have numerous friends complaining about how difficult it is to travel to them, and they're concerned about the expected reduction in police funding.
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Re: Seattle: The Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

Post by boskone » Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:16 am

RoneKiln wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:22 pm
one was listed as being a gunsmith but not a gun store (they may sell guns, i just assumed that would be advertised if they did).
Unless they're trying to stay out of the public eye about it, perhaps.

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Re: Seattle: The Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

Post by RickOShea » Fri Jul 24, 2020 4:45 pm

whisk.e.rebellion wrote: It's not what you say anymore. It's how you say it.
Sumdood wrote:Welcome to 2020. I would list all the rules here, but there are too many and most of them are made up as we go. Just be prepared to be punished for something.

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Re: Seattle: The Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

Post by tony d tiger » Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:43 pm

The British are coming! The British are coming!
To arms! To arms!!
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Re: Seattle: The Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

Post by Anianna » Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:30 pm

There have been claims that there are AZs in other cities, but one of the reported cities is Richmond, VA. Not for lack of trying the last couple of days, but there is no AZ here in Richmond at this point. Can anyone confirm AZs anywhere other than Seattle right now?
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Re: Seattle: The Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

Post by raptor2 » Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:11 pm

An interesting attempt by the AP to present both sides of the violence in portland in a candid manner by reporting what they saw from both side's perspective.
This weekend, journalists for the Associated Press were both outside, with the protesters, and inside the courthouse, with the federal agents, documenting the chaotic fight
https://apnews.com/1dd1bb39093a3691f4e78093787ab877
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Re: Seattle: The Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

Post by RoneKiln » Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:05 pm

Anianna wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:30 pm
There have been claims that there are AZs in other cities, but one of the reported cities is Richmond, VA. Not for lack of trying the last couple of days, but there is no AZ here in Richmond at this point. Can anyone confirm AZs anywhere other than Seattle right now?
The one in Seattle was shut down a few weeks ago. I don't think there are any of note left in the US as of this moment.
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Re: Seattle: The Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

Post by RickOShea » Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:14 pm

Anianna wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:30 pm
There have been claims that there are AZs in other cities, but one of the reported cities is Richmond, VA. Not for lack of trying the last couple of days, but there is no AZ here in Richmond at this point. Can anyone confirm AZs anywhere other than Seattle right now?
There was the New York City Hall Autonomous Zone, but the NYPD cleared it out a week or so ago.
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Re: Seattle: The Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

Post by raptor2 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:38 pm

An interesting article by the NYT
Caution politics at the link. So I will not paste article text.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/07/us/d ... tests.html
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Re: Seattle: The Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

Post by boskone » Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:18 pm

If people really want autonomous zones, honestly I'm all for it. Just go find your own place to be autonomous; there's plenty of land in the US you can try your ideals in.

But if someone tried to declare my block an autonomous zone, I'd declare autonomy from the autonomy and politely request they not impede my autonomy. :p

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Re: Seattle: The Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

Post by boskone » Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:19 pm

<Hi, lamby>
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Re: Seattle: The Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

Post by Lambykins » Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:41 pm

So nice it needs saying twice? :crazy:
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