The Ongoing Man Made Opiod Catastrophe

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The Ongoing Man Made Opiod Catastrophe

Post by Stercutus » Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:14 pm

The various states are getting organized and preparing major push back to the drug companies for the current state of affairs in the highly addictive, life taking opioid crisis that is sweeping the United States.

Hundreds of thousands of people have died directly and indirectly due to the crisis and millions of others have been profoundly effected. The economic cost is in to the hundreds of billions, likely truly incalculable. I see it, live it and deal with it every single day as a cog in an enormous machine.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-sho ... public-eye
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Re: The Ongoing Man Made Opiod Catastrophe

Post by NT2C » Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:16 am

And here we go, tossing the baby out with the bathwater again. :gonk:

Are opioids addictive? Yes. Is there an opioid crisis? Yes, but actually there's two of them. Unfortunately, we're only fighting one and that's making the second one worse by the day.

What's the second one? The crisis of patients who genuinely need opioids, because they are their only effective pain reliever, being cut back or denied them completely and suffering debilitating pain. It's a real problem these days, one with far-reaching consequences. Let me tell you about a friend of mine named Larry...

Larry is a medically retired Air Force vet. He had almost 19 years in, multiple tours, first Gulf War, etc., etc. He was up for E7 and considering going beyond 20 if the AF wanted him. On his way to work one morning all that changed when a drunk driver ran a stoplight and broadsided him on his motorcycle. Medics were on the scene very quickly and that's a good thing because his heart stopped three times before they could get him in an OR and stabilize him. He had a whole shopping list of injuries but the worst was the 7 breaks in his spine. He was MEDEVAC back to the States and spent a little over a year in Walter Reed, getting his back worked on (he has a steel cage around his entire lumbar spine now) and was told several times that he would never walk again. Thankfully, he proved his docs wrong on that and not only walked again but eventually became capable of caring for himself again and living a normal life. Well, normal except for the painkillers he had to take in order to function. He was prescribed a wide selection of pain meds that he could take, as needed, depending on his pain level. Everything from morphine on down to Tylenol, and he did well with them. He never abused them, never shared or let anyone else have access to his supplies, tailored his dosages to his activities (such as driving - he's an excellent driver and I ride with him often) and just lived by himself in a house out in the middle of a soybean field. As a ham radio operator, he became very active in public service and emergency communication work and volunteered with FEMA, the state, county, and city emergency management departments, not just where he lives but also surrounding areas, and events like the Marine Corps Marathon and Historic Half. Then the FDA started cracking down on opioid abuse and his life became a living hell again. Currently, he's been cut back to about half of what he actually needs, and his docs have been trying all kinds of other "therapies" on him that have some pretty nasty side effects. The VA no longer sends him his meds every month, now he has to drive 60 miles each way every week to get them in person... except for a few months where his driver's license was suspended, not for anything he'd done wrong, but because he answered honestly when DMV asked about any prescription meds he was taking when he went to renew his license. It took three months to get all his docs to sign off on the paperwork to get his license back, and DMV says he now has to do that every 6 months. In order to drive though he has to stop taking his new meds 24 hours before, because they give him double vision and make him disoriented. It then takes about two days to build the levels back up again to where they actually help him at all. Meanwhile, every now and then the VA changes one of his docs and the new one refuses to give him the meds he needs and insists all he needs is to go to the pain management program (which he's done, three times, and three times been told they can't help him). The FDA has docs so cowed on this issue that they are denying meds to patients who have no alternative, out of fear of losing their licenses to practice or going to prison. Larry is now at the point where he's being faced with the very real possibility of being unable to care for himself any longer and losing his home, his ham radios, his guns (his farm is where I go to shoot), his camper, his motorcycle, his beloved '65 Mustang that he wants to restore, all of it, and be put in an assisted living facility. All because the opioid crisis you read about and see stories about on the news has spawned this whole second opioid crisis, one that you don't hear about and that no one campaigns to put an end to, and that's unacceptable to me but I lack any way to change it.
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Re: The Ongoing Man Made Opiod Catastrophe

Post by Stercutus » Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:04 pm

Let me tell you a story about my son. A few years ago he was in a bicycle crash that required some stitches. I took him up to the ED and he got stitches. After the Doc asked him what his pain level was and my son truthfully told him a "2" out of "10". The doc promptly wrote him a script for Percocet. That simply was not happening. But guess what? Many parents would have gotten that filled and started feeding their child dope.

Do people need pain drugs? Some do. But the lines got badly contorted somewhere along the way. It makes no sense that the US consumes 75% of the world legal supply of opioids. Are pain problems that much worse in the US that we have to dish out dope by the truckload?
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Re: The Ongoing Man Made Opiod Catastrophe

Post by NT2C » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:54 pm

Stercutus wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:04 pm
Let me tell you a story about my son. A few years ago he was in a bicycle crash that required some stitches. I took him up to the ED and he got stitches. After the Doc asked him what his pain level was and my son truthfully told him a "2" out of "10". The doc promptly wrote him a script for Percocet. That simply was not happening. But guess what? Many parents would have gotten that filled and started feeding their child dope.

Do people need pain drugs? Some do. But the lines got badly contorted somewhere along the way. It makes no sense that the US consumes 75% of the world legal supply of opioids. Are pain problems that much worse in the US that we have to dish out dope by the truckload?
I do not dispute that there's a crisis and have not done so here. My point is that the whole focus these days is in completely doing away with opioids, and that's simply not acceptable either. There are people who genuinely need these drugs and they are being made to suffer horribly because there's no real effort being made to ensure that their supply is maintained. Not "cut back"; not switched to something less effective with bad side effects; not told that their pain can be abated "just as well" with pain therapy, essential oils, and positive thoughts. Right now they're being told, "Sorry about that. Sucks to be you."

Why am I so passionate about this? In part, it's because I see what it's doing to my buddy, but it's also because I'm probably looking down the same barrel myself. I have severe post-herpetic neuralgia. When it first happened they gave me opioids to take the edge off the pain while they tried Lyrica to see if it would control it. It did and I stopped taking the opioids because I didn't need them. Then my insurance balked at the cost of the Lyrica (about $450 mo) so my docs took me off it and tried a different drug. That one did not work and I went back on the opioids while they tried higher and higher doses and also petitioned my insurance to pay for the Lyrica since the alternative wasn't effective. My insurance waited until they had me up to 1.5x the maximum dosage before they finally agreed to pay for the Lyrica. I've been on the Lyrica for several years now and we're finding that it slowly loses its effectiveness the longer I take it. Initially, 75mg three times a day did the trick, but it has had to be bumped up and bumped up until you get where I am today, sitting right at the absolute maximum dose that can be prescribed (and which my kidneys and liver can handle) and for the last year I've been battling through a lot of breakthrough pain episodes that are so bad I curl up in bed and cry. My doc tried two different drugs that should have worked together with the Lyrica to make it more effective but my body can't handle either of them. From here I have two paths I can go down, surgery to sever the nerve bundles (my entire right side from shoulder to waist) leaving me with no feeling at all, or supplement the Lyrica with opioids. Except I don't actually have that second option because my doc does not want to risk her license prescribing them for me, and would rather I go for the surgery and then training to teach me to automatically check myself every few seconds to make sure I haven't injured myself, pretty much the same way lepers scan themselves for injuries.

So, yeah, I do not deny that opioid abuse is rampant and out of control and that it needs to be reined in to stop the abuse, but we must do it in a way that does not negatively impact patients with a genuine need for opioids.
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Re: The Ongoing Man Made Opiod Catastrophe

Post by Stercutus » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:47 pm

So, yeah, I do not deny that opioid abuse is rampant and out of control and that it needs to be reined in to stop the abuse, but we must do it in a way that does not negatively impact patients with a genuine need for opioids.
Due to all the prior abuses there will be quite a bit of clamping down. Too many imaginary cases of back pain and fibromyalgia. Since there is no faith in the system it may be a decade before proper controls are in place. Keep in mind also your health care provider will be resisting the whole way while your insurance company will be all for throttling off the supply of any and all drugs.
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Re: The Ongoing Man Made Opiod Catastrophe

Post by Ellywick » Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:58 am

NT, I very much understand your perspective. One of my Aunts almost died in a terrible car crash when she was young and so has constant chronic pain. She did well on low dose opiods and was able to function well. The new meds she is on knock her on her ass way more than her others did but are "non-narcotics" and so considered better for some bullshit reason. I officially hate Tramidol. It may not be considered addictive, but I have had it before and it made me feel way more stoned and spaced out than any opioid ever has. Now she has to choose most days between gritting her teeth and dealing with the pain to function as best she can or being on something that somewhat takes away the pain, but makes her pretty non-functional. I'm grateful she's tough enough to just struggle through it most days, but I worry about the older she gets. One of my best friends has also had degenerative back disease since she was in her early 20s. They can't discern why and don't know how to stop it. Multiple surgeries and steroid shots have just support her continued mobility and do nothing for the pain. She can barely sleep at night anymore. Low-dose opiods managed it, but they completely refuse to give her any now and nothing else seems to work.

Stercutus, the data doesn't lie and you are right that many people are terribly abusing the system and many doctors are in the pocket of drug companies. That being said, it is terrible to watch other's shitty personal choices negatively affect innocent people you love.
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Re: The Ongoing Man Made Opiod Catastrophe

Post by JayceSlayn » Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:47 am

It is an inherently complex problem to solve, as each individual in the equation brings their own set of variables to the table. By individual, there are varying levels of pain perception (for the same condition), varying efficacy and suitability of drugs, varying availability and efficacy of non-drug alternative therapies, varying comorbidities, varying insurance applicability, varying socioeconomic status*, list going ad infinitum. Much like the criminal justice system has issues trying to draw hard rules that 100% only apply appropriate punishments to guilty people, there is no inflexible line that perfectly divides who should get what in as "simple" a problem as pain relief. It is why we try to give both judges and doctors some flexibility to apply their sincere intuition to each case, but it also ensures that human fallibility will always factor into the outcomes.

*My wife sees many patients who are disadvantaged (some dramatically so) and it is a great frustration to her that she doesn't have more tools to help them after they leave the office. She can try to set up their medication access for them and refer them to additional services, but ultimately many of these people fall between the cracks in our institutions. E.g. How is a diabetic supposed to store their prescribed insulin when they don't have a refrigerator/electricity?

EDIT: All that being said, as was previously stated: there is strong evidence to show that overuse of opioids is a major problem right now, and so it adds to a hesitancy by doctors to prescribe them. It just serves as another background factor brought into the calculus. I see some promising things in alternatives like cannabis and derived substances - I am not a pothead, but there is some evidence that it may be effective for pain relief for some conditions/individuals where other conventional methods fail. More research is needed in those areas. There has never been a true panacea, and likely will never be, so we'll always want to keep as many and ever-better options available as we can.
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Re: The Ongoing Man Made Opiod Catastrophe

Post by Stercutus » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:20 pm

I don't want to conflate marijuana in to the issue but I have gone from being mildly skeptical that it has any benefit at all to being fully on board as a substitute for opioids. It is a much safer drug and non-addictive even if habit forming. I have serious doubts that it can control pain the way opioids can but anything to keep people off dope.
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Re: The Ongoing Man Made Opiod Catastrophe

Post by Stercutus » Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:16 am

https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/mbz ... bankruptcy

Looks like Purdue may be the first company sued into oblivion. Doubtful anyone but the lawyers will see much out of it.
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Re: The Ongoing Man Made Opiod Catastrophe

Post by Halfapint » Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:41 am

I see where everyone is coming from. It’s a heated topic, one that many don’t really see eye to eye. I posted something in this forum a while ago (couple years ago actually) where I said opioids are a major issue. I wasn’t belittled directly, however I was told “it’s not a big deal”.

Fast forward a few years and the tune has changed. The difference? It’s no longer a “city” issue, it’s got DEEP into the veins of the country. Now it’s a crisis.... Should big pharma be held responsible? Absolutely! Does banning things work? Tell me, would a gun ban work? Has the “war on drugs” worked? I’ll leave it at that.

I love that Stercutus said straight up that he was a doubter, but now believes that marijuana can help. As he pointed out, docs just drop percs and shit for mild pain when a NSAID will work, or hell, a joint (ok not to minors obviously).

As NT wrote let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water, opioids are wonderful things. They gave my dad a life when the cancer was eating him alive. It gave him the ability to say good bye in a way he wanted to.

Moving forward, researchers think sea cucumbers could be a key to non addictive pain relief. Just a few moments ago I read an article that researchers may have found a way to turn off pain receptors altogether. That’s a Pandora’s box itself, but could be great for the elderly or those with immense pain.

In the mean time the pills I get go into storage and get used for times like this weekend where I tripped fell, landed on a branch that was sticking up. Wasn’t sure what was wrong, took some pain pills, Gabe it some rest as I monitored and realized that it was bruised and not broken or worse. Saved myself a huge repair bill.
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Re: The Ongoing Man Made Opiod Catastrophe

Post by emclean » Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:57 am

Stercutus wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:04 pm
Let me tell you a story about my son. A few years ago he was in a bicycle crash that required some stitches. I took him up to the ED and he got stitches. After the Doc asked him what his pain level was and my son truthfully told him a "2" out of "10". The doc promptly wrote him a script for Percocet. That simply was not happening. But guess what? Many parents would have gotten that filled and started feeding their child dope.
of course he was given a script, the amount that the government pays hospitals is effected by how happy you were with your visit. not outcomes, not were you properly treated, but are you happy with it.
so there is a vested interest in making people happy, even if it makes you unwell.

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Re: The Ongoing Man Made Opiod Catastrophe

Post by colmer » Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:39 pm

@NT2C your friend Larry is great model and a real life superhero. He sounds living positively despite the accident. The government should have better control over these drugs for people like Larry.

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Re: The Ongoing Man Made Opiod Catastrophe

Post by NT2C » Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:42 pm

colmer wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:39 pm
@NT2C your friend Larry is great model and a real life superhero. He sounds living positively despite the accident. The government should have better control over these drugs for people like Larry.
He's my best friend (we just celebrated his birthday last week) and yes, he is an inspiration. I didn't mention it previously but he's also a cancer survivor. He was diagnosed with prostate cancer about 6 years ago. They removed it, he went through all the treatments and beat it, all on his own. We never knew about it until one of his daughters asked him a question about it while I was there. When I asked him why he didn't tell me he said it was because he knew I lost someone I loved very much to cancer and he didn't want to worry me.

As of midnight this coming Sunday he will again have his driver's license suspended until all his VA docs sign off that he's okay to drive, something he's been asking them to do for a month now. They still haven't and he can't even get his assigned patient advocate to return his calls. This is completely unacceptable to me but what can I do? I've written to my Congress critters on his behalf and gotten the usual "say nothing but make it seem like you agree" boilerplate replies. I've written the White House, twice now. I've even written directly to the First Lady about this other side of the opioid crises that no one talks about or sees because she's been pushing so strongly to find ways to solve the crises. Never got any response or even an acknowledgment that the messages were received.
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Re: The Ongoing Man Made Opiod Catastrophe

Post by colmer » Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:52 pm

Such a brave man. Salute to him. Hope your letter would get their attention.

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Re: The Ongoing Man Made Opiod Catastrophe

Post by Stercutus » Thu May 02, 2019 7:08 pm

Starting to see some accountability.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/business-le ... oid-crisis
A federal jury in Boston found John Kapoor, who served as the drugmaker's chairman, and his co-defendants guilty of racketeering conspiracy for a scheme that also misled insurers into paying for the drug.
Lest anyone have any doubts about what was going on here... raw corporate fucking greed.
The jury heard evidence early in the trial about Lee, an ex-stripper turned Insys regional sales director, who gave a lap dance to a doctor at a Chicago club as part of an effort to push him to prescribe the drug.

Lets face it, most strippers are only qualified to do a couple of things. Help sell drugs is one of them.
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Re: The Ongoing Man Made Opiod Catastrophe

Post by moab » Fri May 03, 2019 5:02 pm

My wife has had several back surgeries. From car accidents and degenerative disc disease. Tried multiple methods to control her pain. Therapy, injections, surgery. Is on pain medication long term. And has been with the same pain management doctor for many years. I take her to her appts. And follow this with her doctor. Since way back before the big pharma pushed opiates on everyone and your brother.

There is some truth to some of the above comments. Pro and con.

Instead of letting the doctors determine who should and should not be on pain meds. Many big pharmacy corps have taken it on themselves to limit pain meds indiscriminately. Most of the national pharmacies have new policies that override your doctors advice. Which I hold much higher than a pharmacists. Here in CA many large pharmacies think the answer is just to not have the pain meds in stock at all. (A few months ago I had to drive sometimes an hour away to get a script filled for my wife. Who's had several back surgeries. And legit pain. Just to find a pharmacy with pain meds in stock. And you can't call any of them and see if they have your med in stock. That's against' the rules too.)

Or to not follow doctor's instructions and limit pain meds themselves. By not filling them on the days the doctors write the scripts etc. etc. I've waited two weeks before to get meds filled for my wife. As they no longer fill the meds when the dr writes the order. They have their own system of when you can and can not get your pain meds filled. All the while she's suffering from debilitating pain. And I'm not talking about one pharmacy. We have all the national chains around us. And all of them operate this way now.

It's difficult for someone that actually has pain to keep up with. And harder yet to have a pharmacist tell you what you should or should not be taking something. They aren't doctors. And they certainly should not be treating patients. Which is basically what they are doing. If they have an issue with a script it should be addressed with the doctor not the patient. They're basically trying to solve the issue with a shotgun approach. "Just cut off the supply to everyone.". When it's the doctors that should be properly examining patients and cutting off the ones that are abusing them. I know easier said than done. But still. It's not the responsibility of the pharmacies to do this. It's the doctors responsibility. Pharmacists are NOT doctors.

On the flip side. No. Any old joe schmo should not be able to walk into a clinic and get a huge bottle of the strongest pain meds in 15 minutes. With nothing wrong with them. (This was never the method of operation before the opiate epidemic. You had to show a real need. And had to have exhausted every other type of therapy, surgery or injection.) The indiscriminate scripts being issued willy nilly was going on with many clinics across the US for far to long. That has to stop. The feds are cracking down on doctors. You now have to take a drug test randomly while on pain meds. And are rigorously interviewed and examined for your pain. (Which my wifes doctor has done for many years in his practice. Even before the fed crackdown.) Which is a good thing. But it puts normal people in pain that need the medication the most - right in with the drug addicts. imho. You're treated guilty until proven otherwise. Even if you have a very well documented pain problem from multiple surgeries. We're not talking someone just walking in off the street with a bullshit excuse for pain meds. We're talking real patients with real pain issues from legit surgeries. They've done everything they can to lesson the pain. Surgery, injections, physical therapy etc. etc. And then when they walk into a pharmacy with a legit doctors script they are treated like a drug addict from the get go.

Don't get me wrong. Being on pain meds sucks. Whether you need them or not. I guess worse if you don't need them. But even when you need them they are mind numbing. And sap the life out of you. But for some the pain is worse. SO you have no choice but to stay on them.

We also have to give people on pain medication the opportunity to go off if they want too. Without being branded an addict. And not being able to access the pain meds they need if going off doesn't work.

In CA you automatically get drug tested if your being prescribed pain meds. And if your found to be on street drugs (except cannabis) your cut off. (Which is a good thing..) But also if your found to have "not" taken them on that day. Your cut off too. As the assumption is your not taking them - your selling them. So they have to see it in your system. Or they take them away. And put you on a do not prescribe list. (And all doctors see all the other doctors scripts each time you visit. There is a CA statewide database now. So they can see that your not seeing multiple doctors.) So even if your just trying to limit your pain meds on a given day. There are consequences that could greatly affect your life and health. Likewise if you go into your doctor and say I want to try to go off my meds. And you do. Getting back on is very very difficult. And god forbid you go to a detox or rehab. As you will never get another script again. And will be forced to use black market pain drugs if you can't manage your pain. Which is a very slippery slope to taking hard street drugs.

The pendulum seems to have swung too far in the direction of "lets get everyone hooked". To now where they want to "get EVERYBODY off pain meds". Getting off pain meds is a great thing. But not treating people with real pain is not. And a shotgun approach like this is not the answer.

I've had long conversations with my wife's very legit pain management doctor. And a lot of the fed breathing down their necks is good. But a lot of it is - like I said - a shotgun approach to a much more complex problem.

Doctors need to be at the center of it. They need oversight. And they need to rigorously treat their patients with addiction in mind. But not at the cost of branding anyone taking pain meds legitimately as an addict. And pharmacies should stay the hell out of it. They aren't doctors. Don't have the training. And have no business prescribing drugs. Which is basically what they are doing. Overriding the doctors. Yes. Of course if something is going to interact with something else. Then yes. The pharmacy has to call the patients doctor and confirm. But in this current state they take that all on themselves. Without any consultation with the doctors. It's like they are their own little fed oversight program. And I for one have never seen corporate oversight of a public health issue - as a very good solution.

We should be encouraging everyone to lessen their use of opiates. If not outright stopping. But with the current system in place it makes that very difficult. It makes you not even want to speak with your doctor about it. For fear of repercussions. Like losing your pain meds altogether. So the result is you better keep your pain med script full and active. Or it will be lessened or taken away for good. That's not conducive to helping people take less pain meds. It's the opposite.

I can't imagine what it must be like for patients in states where cannabis is illegal. Cannabis, used properly, can greatly reduce your need for pain meds. Imagine if you were in one of those states and getting drug tested regularly. And having them taken away because you tested positive for cannabis. Or you simply wanted to use cannabis to reduce your opiate use? But you can't. What a mess.

The UFC and USADA are having that very problem right now. It's illegal to use cannabis. But you can use all the opiates you want. Fighters are speaking out. But these things change slowly.
"Ideas are more dangerous than guns. We don't let our people have guns. Why would we let them have ideas?" Josef Stalin

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Re: The Ongoing Man Made Opiod Catastrophe

Post by Stercutus » Fri May 03, 2019 6:22 pm

The Pharma companies are all scrambling to show what great citizens they are now. The USG has gone after them the last two years with real gusto. Executives are now less worried about what goes in to the bottom line then what goes in to their bottom in the pokey. I didn't trust them then and don't trust them now.
The feds are cracking down on doctors. You now have to take a drug test randomly while on pain meds. And are rigorously interviewed and examined for your pain. (Which my wifes doctor has done for many years in his practice. Even before the fed crackdown.) Which is a good thing. But it puts normal people in pain that need the medication the most - right in with the drug addicts. imho. You're treated guilty until proven otherwise. Even if you have a very well documented pain problem from multiple surgeries. We're not talking someone just walking in off the street with a bullshit excuse for pain meds. We're talking real patients with real pain issues from legit surgeries. They've done everything they can to lesson the pain. Surgery, injections, physical therapy etc. etc. And then when they walk into a pharmacy with a legit doctors script they are treated like a drug addict from the get go.
I wish I could tell you the number of "normal" people that I have met that have become hooked on opiates after being over prescribed for real underlying conditions. Truthfully I have lost track. Getting off opiates when you no longer need them is really hard and lot of people don't have it within themselves to do it after the underlying condition has been treated. Therefore they keep on rolling or up the game in to heroin, fentanyl and other cheap synthetics from China.

We never used to see addicts over the age of 65. They rarely ever lived that long. Now it is not uncommon as they started taking pills in their late 50s, some for really painful conditions, some for something simply that the doctor was getting a bonus to prescribe. The underlyging condition may be gone but it still "hurts" because withdraws are damn painful.

The whole thing is a tragedy. I am sorry your wife got caught up in the fallout but the whole system is broken and has been broken for years.
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be rememberèd—
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother

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moab
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Re: The Ongoing Man Made Opiod Catastrophe

Post by moab » Fri May 03, 2019 7:04 pm

Stercutus wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 6:22 pm


The whole thing is a tragedy. I am sorry your wife got caught up in the fallout but the whole system is broken and has been broken for years.
That was my main point, Sterc. Thank you for weeding thru all my rambling thoughts to get to the gist of it. lol. The system is broken. And now not only do we have addicts with opiate problems. We have patients with real need not getting the care they deserve.

I was just sitting in another doctors office this week. And the guy next to me started up a conversation. He said he'd been given 19 pain pills a day - for get this - "restless leg syndrome". I about fell out of my chair. Then he went on to say he was on methadone now for the "restless leg syndrome". And was hoping to get off it. The guy was in his 50's maybe 60's. This was at my GP's office. But he had gotten it from someplace else. My GP does not prescribe it except in rare cases and only temporarily. We only spoke for a few moments. But I was not sure whether to believe him or not. Either he had the worst diagnosis from a doctor I've ever heard. Or just a plain old straight up addict.

We really need to move more quickly on cannabis IMHO. It has real value for pain, (weight gain) and addiction. Hit's the same receptors. And doesn't give you withdrawals. Although it's hard to dose in CA. Because they don't test or follow any THC guidelines. It's kind of like the wild west here still. SO your never really sure from one edible to the next how much THC or CBD you're getting.

The folks in WA really got it right. Whenever my wife travels there the edibles are strictly kept to 10mg THC per serving. Like you buy a bag of ten brownies and each one is in it's own packaging. And 10mg each. Which makes it a lot easier to dose for whatever your need is. My father died of ALS last year. And we gave him tincture with THC/CBD in WA. And it helped him immensely. A big factor of ALS is not eating and pain. So it helped. My father in law is currently dying and doing the same thing with THC suckers. And he's 84. Not to mention all the people and children with seizure disorders that it corrects.

My father was funny though. When he started I gave him strict instructions not to take more than a few drops in his coffee. In fact, I think it was one drop. Well he didn't get anything out of it. So he put a whole tube of the stuff in his coffee one night. He cussed me out the next day (in a funny way - sort of) that he'd been awake for like 6 hours to high to function. Said he couldn't sleep. And couldn't get off the couch. lol. That slowed his roll for awhile. But eventually got the dose down. I think someday we'll see pills with exact doses that you'll get from the pharmacy probably.

The stigma is gone in the general public. But to many conservative states are still treating it like heroin. Same with the feds. We need to legalize it federally. And start studying it as pain management, addiction control or getting off of opiates and all the other benefits.

Aren't you a LEO, Sterc? Would be interesting to hear from a LEO about cannabis legalization. And its effects on the street level. All my old cop friends aren't around anymore.
"Ideas are more dangerous than guns. We don't let our people have guns. Why would we let them have ideas?" Josef Stalin

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flybynight
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Re: The Ongoing Man Made Opiod Catastrophe

Post by flybynight » Fri May 03, 2019 8:49 pm

We need to study it as benefits FOR pain management, addiction control or getting off of opiates and if useful legalize it federally. <---- fixed that for you. I still keep a deep seated disgust for cannabis after watching it completely screw up my family and some of my friends.
As of now I bet you got me wrong

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moab
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Re: The Ongoing Man Made Opiod Catastrophe

Post by moab » Fri May 03, 2019 9:36 pm

flybynight wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 8:49 pm
We need to study it as benefits FOR pain management, addiction control or getting off of opiates and if useful legalize it federally. <---- fixed that for you. I still keep a deep seated disgust for cannabis after watching it completely screw up my family and some of my friends.
I have the same feelings about alcohol. Ruined large swaths of my childhood. So I don't drink at all. The Native half of my family had big problems with it. Luckily it just isn't my thing. Never has been. I never really enjoyed it that much. But I watched my families alcoholism for decades. And am glad that everyone is in recovery now. Or were when they died. My father was sober for about 30 years before he died. But man it had a negative effect on our lives. So I feel ya brother. Every family has there thing.

The funny thing about studies on cannabis is there have been so few. My wifes pain management doctor just started selling CBD. Because the only legit study he could find was on only CBD not THC. Hopefully as we progress we'll get better topicals. I've got a case of tendonitis in my elbow right now. I wish I had some. All I've got is this prescribed topical low grade pain killer like aleve but in a lotion form. It works ok. But I hope to find a CBD rub that is more hardcore. Even without the THC it has big benefits as a topical. And no getting high if it's just CBD. If I were in WA I'd roll the dice a try a few. But in CA you never know what your getting. And it's not cheap.
"Ideas are more dangerous than guns. We don't let our people have guns. Why would we let them have ideas?" Josef Stalin

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Stercutus
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Re: The Ongoing Man Made Opiod Catastrophe

Post by Stercutus » Sat May 04, 2019 9:09 am

Aren't you a LEO, Sterc? Would be interesting to hear from a LEO about cannabis legalization. And its effects on the street level. All my old cop friends aren't around anymore.

I am going to skirt the politics and just focus on the effects. THC is much safer than opiates and alcohol. The benefits are not well understood and the potential for abuse (read as recreational use) is very high. While safer plenty of people die each year through THC related causes. Mostly through DUI, misadventure and interactions with other drugs that lead to system failure. I'd say on the balance it can't really be support being classified as a schedule I drug. True research is actually hard to come by. There is plenty of bad "research" out there though.


From my perspective I see THC as just another drug that is mildly depressive. Mostly when people use depressants this is very helpful from a LE standpoint as people who use such drugs are much easier to control and more susceptible to suggestion. (Obviously this makes it easier for the government to control such people as well.) The segment of the population that tends to use drugs recreationally tend to have a lack of respect for themselves, others, the laws of the land, the property of others and so forth. So if people voluntarily want to use a drug that makes them easier to control I am fully in favor.

Just like with alcohol sometimes people become violent when using THC when they become paranoid or suffer some other negative physocative effect. This seems to be more rare than with alcohol and they tend to follow more of a flight response than fight response.
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be rememberèd—
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother

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