Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by shiddymunkie » Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:10 pm

The only drawback to that design is that now you don't have the same crowbar-like prying abilities as you would with claws. Now, if instead they added an axe blade perpendicular to the hammer head, that might do the trick. All it'd take is a 90 degree handle rotation to go from framing to hacking lol
Last edited by shiddymunkie on Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by Malleolus » Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:10 pm

Malleolus wrote:
Doc Torr wrote:
Malleolus wrote:
Doc Torr wrote:The weight in the knuckles (brass, IIRC) was so that when in/on the hand, it could be used as a knuckleduster. The blade with it's spiked shape was designed to penetrate the helmet, not for anything else. The sheathe was to carry it until needed, since it was an infantry issue weapon.
But, you are trying to punch through a previously humans skull. I meant no disrespect with the whole sheathe statement, I just figured they'd have a simple hoop ring to slide it into since the blade was... well, shit for cutting anything including butter.
Infantry movement+anything but a sheathe with retention strap=failure.



Don't do a coconut test with this kind of trench knife though...



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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by squinty » Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:14 pm

shiddymunkie wrote:The only drawback to that design is that now you don't have the same crowbar-like prying abilities as you would with claws. Now, if instead they added an axe blade perpendicular to the hammer head (coming off of the the left or right side) that might do the trick 8-)
Hmmmm... might be awkward to swing like that, though. We're perilously close to reinventing the FUBAR.

Anyhoo, I got's both. The hatchet goes camping. The framy hammer, having better reach, is the preferred de-zedicator.
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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by shiddymunkie » Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:21 pm

*looks up FUBAR*

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Ah, got it. Seriously though, I was kidding about the axe blade combo. Can't have it all in one tool, unfortunately. But I do believe the standard hammer or framing hammer to be about the best all-around ZPAW melee weapon/tool.

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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by shiddymunkie » Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:56 pm

I've done it. I dare say this might be one of the best ZPAW melee weapon ever created. It's a hammer with a saw blade along one side of the "neck", and a straight blade on the other side. In addition to all of the benefits of a standard hammer in ZPAW, you can now add sawing, chopping, and cutting to the list. Bam.

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Now if only someone were to make it lol. I guess you could just grind the edge of a hammer yourself to the get straight-edge blade...the saw edge would be a bit tougher to DIY.

[edit]

Actually, here is one potential improvement. Imagine the hammer's flat claws are flared out like an axe blade, yet still retain the slit for pulling nails. The image below is a rough mock up of what the hammer claws would look like from a bird's eye view. This one tool would give you the capabilities of a hammer, prybar, axe, saw, and straight-edge blade, all in one nice little package. In fact, it may even be better with a hacksaw blade instead of the wood saw for your metal cutting needs...which should still suffice for wood if the occasion called for it. Or even a hacksaw blade instead of the straight-edge blade, since you would now have an axe for your chopping needs.

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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by velocity101 » Tue May 08, 2012 6:22 pm

IMO a zombie melee weapon has to have the following traits:

1. Long enough to dispatch the zombie at a distance.
2. Devastating enough to land a killing blow in one shot.
3. Land that killing blow without splattering infected blood all over you or your companions!

That being said, I'm torn between using a bladed weapon (like a sword) or a blunt weapon, like a shovel.
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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by foxx » Tue May 08, 2012 8:54 pm

velocity101 wrote:IMO a zombie melee weapon has to have the following traits:

1. Long enough to dispatch the zombie at a distance.
2. Devastating enough to land a killing blow in one shot.
3. Land that killing blow without splattering infected blood all over you or your companions!

That being said, I'm torn between using a bladed weapon (like a sword) or a blunt weapon, like a shovel.
I agree, but would add that both the weapon and user must be able to last. You may have to take on a horde, how long can you fight with the weapon? Can you swing it, with enough power to kill enough Zed's till you can escape?
Can your weapon last, what abuse(s) can it take? Not all weapons are made to be tough. You may miss that Zombie, hit a tree, will your weapon last? Thin swords may have balance and speed, but could break vs. a very thick heavy sword.
Blood splatter will happen with any weapon that is powerful enough to decapitate or crush a skull, expect it.

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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by shiddymunkie » Tue May 08, 2012 10:08 pm

velocity101 wrote:IMO a zombie melee weapon has to have the following traits:

1. Long enough to dispatch the zombie at a distance.
2. Devastating enough to land a killing blow in one shot.
3. Land that killing blow without splattering infected blood all over you or your companions!

That being said, I'm torn between using a bladed weapon (like a sword) or a blunt weapon, like a shovel.
Well, a hammer can satisfy #2 and #3, and with one-handed operation none the less. #1 has its benefits, but also has drawbacks. A long weapon, while good outside or in an open space, may actually be a death sentence when in enclosed spaces (when a melee weapon is probably needed the most). Imagine trying to use a full-sized spear inside a small room or hallway. If you miss, or if there are more than one zombie, you're sort of screwed. Another disadvantage is that any long weapon is most likely going to require the use of two hands, which is going to slow down your response time and restrict your movements. Personally, I'd much rather give up the added distance a long weapon can provide for the speed and versatility of a shorter weapon.

Think about it, a zombie's reach is going to be the same as a humans. Add an extra 18" of a framing hammer, and the fact that a zombie's movements will be on par with a really really drunk person's movements -- you can strike them dead without them having a chance to get a hold of you. Plus, the shorter/lighter your weapon, the faster you can land follow-up attacks. With the right motions (think of a figure 8 or "X" motion), I could probably throw 2-3 full strength hammer swings in a second...with a free hand that lets me keep the foe at a distance / hold a shield of some sort / hold a second weapon of some sort / etc.

Just something to think about.
Last edited by shiddymunkie on Tue May 08, 2012 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by velocity101 » Tue May 08, 2012 10:20 pm

Didn't think about the CQB scenario, you're right about that. More and more I think about it, I'm thinking a blunt weapon like your hammer idea may be the ideal weapon. A cutting weapon (like a sword) could get lodged in the zombie's skull, making it difficult to make multi-kills quickly (if surrounded). Although blunt weapons would probably spread blood, I'm certain they wouldn't splatter as much blood as a cutting weapon... unless you friggin smash the zombie's head flat with a Thor hammer or somethin', lol.
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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by squinty » Wed May 09, 2012 3:15 am

foxx wrote:
velocity101 wrote:IMO a zombie melee weapon has to have the following traits:

1. Long enough to dispatch the zombie at a distance.
2. Devastating enough to land a killing blow in one shot.
3. Land that killing blow without splattering infected blood all over you or your companions!

That being said, I'm torn between using a bladed weapon (like a sword) or a blunt weapon, like a shovel.
I agree, but would add that both the weapon and user must be able to last. You may have to take on a horde, how long can you fight with the weapon? Can you swing it, with enough power to kill enough Zed's till you can escape?
Can your weapon last, what abuse(s) can it take? Not all weapons are made to be tough. You may miss that Zombie, hit a tree, will your weapon last? Thin swords may have balance and speed, but could break vs. a very thick heavy sword.
Blood splatter will happen with any weapon that is powerful enough to decapitate or crush a skull, expect it.
A Nice thing about the hammer wrt weapon fatigue: Someone who roofs or builds has probably swung his hammer a lot more often, for longer periods, than most sword owners practice swordcutting. Maybe he or she hasn't swung it in a tactical fashion, from every angle, etc. - but hammer specific muscles, and muscle memory, will have been built up.
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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by KentsOkay » Wed May 09, 2012 6:01 am

squinty wrote: A Nice thing about the hammer wrt weapon fatigue: Someone who roofs or builds has probably swung his hammer a lot more often, for longer periods, than most sword owners practice swordcutting.
Fuck that noise! My dad is a general contractor and half the time I feel more comfortable with a nail gun than a hammer :lol:
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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by squinty » Wed May 09, 2012 8:21 am

KentsOkay wrote:
squinty wrote: A Nice thing about the hammer wrt weapon fatigue: Someone who roofs or builds has probably swung his hammer a lot more often, for longer periods, than most sword owners practice swordcutting.
Fuck that noise! My dad is a general contractor and half the time I feel more comfortable with a nail gun than a hammer :lol:
Damn lazy kids and their newfangled air compressor gizmos and sexting and MTV and whatnot, harrumph harrumph....
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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by Molon Labe » Wed May 09, 2012 9:34 am

squinty wrote:
KentsOkay wrote:
squinty wrote: A Nice thing about the hammer wrt weapon fatigue: Someone who roofs or builds has probably swung his hammer a lot more often, for longer periods, than most sword owners practice swordcutting.
Fuck that noise! My dad is a general contractor and half the time I feel more comfortable with a nail gun than a hammer :lol:
Damn lazy kids and their newfangled air compressor gizmos and sexting and MTV and whatnot, harrumph harrumph....
... And stay off the grass, Dog Nabbit!!
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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by KentsOkay » Wed May 09, 2012 10:49 am

Molon Labe wrote:
squinty wrote:
KentsOkay wrote:
squinty wrote: A Nice thing about the hammer wrt weapon fatigue: Someone who roofs or builds has probably swung his hammer a lot more often, for longer periods, than most sword owners practice swordcutting.
Fuck that noise! My dad is a general contractor and half the time I feel more comfortable with a nail gun than a hammer :lol:
Damn lazy kids and their newfangled air compressor gizmos and sexting and MTV and whatnot, harrumph harrumph....
... And stay off the grass, Dog Nabbit!!
Hey! I didn't hear a harumph out of you, harumph the governor!

Makes me wonder how efficient a framing gun and a long extension cord would be for dispatching a slow moving, complacent mob...
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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by shiddymunkie » Wed May 09, 2012 1:00 pm

KentsOkay wrote: Makes me wonder how efficient a framing gun and a long extension cord would be for dispatching a slow moving, complacent mob...
A suppressed .22 shooting subsonic will probably be just as quiet, with much more range and damage potential. But it could probably be made to work if you used a refillable paintball air canister in a camel back or something. :mrgreen:

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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by KentsOkay » Wed May 09, 2012 2:22 pm

shiddymunkie wrote:
KentsOkay wrote: Makes me wonder how efficient a framing gun and a long extension cord would be for dispatching a slow moving, complacent mob...
A suppressed .22 shooting subsonic will probably be just as quiet, with much more range and damage potential. But it could probably be made to work if you used a refillable paintball air canister in a camel back or something. :mrgreen:
I was thinking scuba tank and shark suit.
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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by tedbeau » Fri May 11, 2012 2:51 pm

AUA wrote:IMO, the melee weapons of choice in a zombie apocalypse would be some sort of durable yet lightweight staff-type item (baseball bat, hockey stick, and the like).

My reasoning behind this is because in practical terms, zombies will always (ALWAYS) outnumber survivors, and killing should only be done if necessary. The idea behind the staff-type weapon is that it increases your available options when it comes to taking down (not killing) zombies; instead of investing energy into killing zombies, you use the weapon strictly defensively.
I totally don't get this. Are you planning on domesticating them? Why would you want to fight them to escape, yet let them survive to come at you again and again. How many times are you going to run/fight each zombie before you decide to put an end to it. If the zombies already outnumber the survivors I would think the faster you reverse that situation the better.

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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by shiddymunkie » Fri May 11, 2012 8:38 pm

Well the way I see it, unless the zombies can die off on their own...at some point people are going to have to go out and start proactively taking them down if they have any hope of things getting better in the future. And since every zombie is a walking zombie-makin'-factory, it would be best to start the extermination process as soon as possible. That one zombie you let get away may end up turning someone else into a zombie. Now you have two zombie-makin'-factories walking around. If those two bite just one more person each, that's now 4 zombie-factories on the loose. Which turns into 8, then 16, then 32, then 64...all in your local area nonetheless.

All because you didn't kill the one when you had the chance. Maybe its the exact same zombie, or a second generation zombie from that original...or even the tenth generation -- the longer you go without killing them, the (exponentially) more likely it will be that you or a loved one will eventually be bit by a zombie that ultimately came from one you let get away.

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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by foxx » Fri May 11, 2012 9:22 pm

When outnumbered, or you have to be quiet, maybe breaking a knee with a bat is the best solution. Finding a strategic "safe" place to fight from is how I would try to operate.
Sure, they need to be dead again, but doesn't mean you have to take on every horde no matter when or where you encounter them. Sometimes you just got to find that wall to stand on or a tree to climb so you can spear them from a safe spot. Yet, if you're surrounded and you have to get away to survive, then a different approach may save your bacon. Regroup and find a better way to take on those same Zed's, Spartan style, or maybe Tallahassee style(enclosed safe zone).

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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by mystic_1 » Fri May 11, 2012 9:57 pm

squinty wrote:We're perilously close to reinventing the FUBAR.
You're starting to move into Lobo territory now ;)

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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by SRO1911 » Fri May 11, 2012 10:31 pm

I guess I am screwed, I have a chipping hammer of some sort on my belt 80 percent of the time I am not at home. Usually an estwing but got probably 15-20 between the truck and the shop. Now yall got me thinking about modifying one - take the handle out to maybe 20-22 inches.

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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by squinty » Sat May 12, 2012 7:46 am

foxx wrote:When outnumbered, or you have to be quiet, maybe breaking a knee with a bat is the best solution. Finding a strategic "safe" place to fight from is how I would try to operate.
Sure, they need to be dead again, but doesn't mean you have to take on every horde no matter when or where you encounter them. Sometimes you just got to find that wall to stand on or a tree to climb so you can spear them from a safe spot. Yet, if you're surrounded and you have to get away to survive, then a different approach may save your bacon. Regroup and find a better way to take on those same Zed's, Spartan style, or maybe Tallahassee style(enclosed safe zone).
Which sound carries farther, the crack of a wooden bat or the ping of an aluminum bat?
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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by foxx » Sat May 12, 2012 11:00 am

Which sound carries farther, the crack of a wooden bat or the ping of an aluminum bat?[/quote]

I suspect both make a low "thud" when hitting a Zombie. I've been hit in the head with a bat :gonk: , but never hit another human, I only assume either would be more quiet than hitting a baseball.
I guess I was thinking "quiet" use of a melee weapon, vs. shooting a Zed. I like the idea of saving ammo and not attracting attention from other nearby Zed's.
Compared to gun shots, all melee weapons are pretty quiet. If the difference in sound, between aluminum and wood bats, make a difference, we're all screwed anyway.

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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by shiddymunkie » Sun May 13, 2012 9:57 pm

foxx wrote:When outnumbered, or you have to be quiet, maybe breaking a knee with a bat is the best solution. Finding a strategic "safe" place to fight from is how I would try to operate.
Why break a knee when you can break a skull? Not only does it seem less awkward to do, you'd be (potentially) killing a zombie vs. partially immobilizing one.
foxx wrote:Sure, they need to be dead again, but doesn't mean you have to take on every horde no matter when or where you encounter them. Sometimes you just got to find that wall to stand on or a tree to climb so you can spear them from a safe spot. Yet, if you're surrounded and you have to get away to survive, then a different approach may save your bacon. Regroup and find a better way to take on those same Zed's, Spartan style, or maybe Tallahassee style(enclosed safe zone).
This is true, and I didn't mean to imply that you should always kill every zombie in sight, no matter what. What I said was more in reference to this:
AUA wrote:IMO, the melee weapons of choice in a zombie apocalypse would be some sort of durable yet lightweight staff-type item (baseball bat, hockey stick, and the like).

My reasoning behind this is because in practical terms, zombies will always (ALWAYS) outnumber survivors, and killing should only be done if necessary. The idea behind the staff-type weapon is that it increases your available options when it comes to taking down (not killing) zombies; instead of investing energy into killing zombies, you use the weapon strictly defensively.
While I understand the wisdom of avoiding zombies whenever possible, I don't see this as an infallible truth. A zombie apocalypse is not a problem that will resolve itself with time, in fact, it will get exponentially worse with time. With this in mind, doing nothing but laying low will only help you in the short run. In the long run, it will almost certainly be your doom.

Personally, I'd rather go on the offensive and proactively clear my local area of the walking dead. While this should be done smartly and with extreme caution, it will do much more for your chances of survival then simply letting them roam freely and multiply all around you. Doing nothing but hiding will not keep you safe, not for long anyway.

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