Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by mantis » Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:15 pm

Malleolus wrote:... if you aren't going to include melee weapons in your combat tactics, then when your 50+ rounds gets wasted in a hoard of zombies with only a fraction of them being killing shots, then you're on your own.
If lI left all the crap such as "melee" weapons out of my gear, I'd be able to carry a lot more ammo.
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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by ferball » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:00 pm

Having done some fencing at a competitive level years ago I will attest to the craziness of the SCA. What little experience I had with them, their idea of melee was based on D&D. So here are some of my melee Insights based on actually "sword fighting".

Battle Axes, War Hammers, etc. one word, Inertia. Watch the final fight in that old Liam Neeson movie "Rob Roy" to understand why battle axes and war hammers and other large slow weapons were developed as a result of armor advances, not practical one on one weapons. Tomahawk or a nice framing hammer make a lot more sense if you are going up against an unarmored zombie.

Halberd, Pole Arm, Bo Staff etc. Think about the "close" in close quarter, ever notice how much space they need in a Kung Fu movie when the bo staffs or spears come out? If you run into a zombie inside the average american dwelling, you would have no room to use such a weapon. Not to mention how awkward wondering around with such weapons can be.

Swords come in all shapes and styles and many of them would suffer from the problems listed above. A small Gladius would be an ideal Zombie weapon, but why be exotic and special, when a machete or my personal favorite The Woodsman Pal offer the same effect in a more useful package.

Also consider "poking" vs. "swinging" In close quarters it may be a lot easier to "poke" your foe vs "swinging" at him. Also a "poke" will do more damage as the energy of the blow is focused to a single point, not spread across the entire blade. Try it some time, have somebody swing at you with a bat, then have them "jab" you with a bat with the same amount of force. An your second trip to the doctor your medical professional will note more trauma than the first. So consider going down jabbing instead of swinging.

So there you have it all the nonsense I have learned in my life as it relates to primitive weapons.

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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by velojym » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:05 pm

Unless I go out and get specific training, I have a pretty stout machete with a full handguard that would do in a pinch. With a little extra cash, a Woodsman's Pal might be a little better for punching skulls. If getting into the skull of a zed is my number one priority, I might even hack out something with a pointed extension in the end, but I'd worry about it binding up in Zeke's noggin... maybe if it was tapered enough...
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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by squinty » Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:27 am

KentsOkay wrote:
squinty wrote:They shuffle left? Then you glide right -
be smooth and avoid that zombie's bite.
'Cause it moves slow, but you move fast-
That's how you'll kick a zombie's ass.
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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by KentsOkay » Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:33 am

squinty wrote:
KentsOkay wrote:
squinty wrote:They shuffle left? Then you glide right -
be smooth and avoid that zombie's bite.
'Cause it moves slow, but you move fast-
That's how you'll kick a zombie's ass.
Sung to "Can't Touch This"
:lol:
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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by Malleolus » Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:21 am

mantis wrote:
Malleolus wrote:... if you aren't going to include melee weapons in your combat tactics, then when your 50+ rounds gets wasted in a hoard of zombies with only a fraction of them being killing shots, then you're on your own.
If lI left all the crap such as "melee" weapons out of my gear, I'd be able to carry a lot more ammo.
But ammo is still finite, whereas melee weapons (when made properly) can last much longer. Not including ammo is really heavy when you think about it. Carrying enough of it to be practical when your on the move and still have serviceable quantities would relegate you to carrying very low caliber rounds, not to mention the idea that unless you are carrying 10+ magazines loaded you are going to have to waste the time reloading your mags constantly. Your problem is that you perceive firearm shooting is like Hollywood, you are going to be able to get a head shot in every time when it counts. The reality of the situation is that you'll be lucky to get torso shots with every magazine because you'll be running at the same time, and it has been established many a time that it takes a proper head shot to kill a zombie. You need to look at situations in WORST case scenario's and plan for them because life isn't Hollywood and Murphy's law is always in effect, meaning that what can go wrong WILL go wrong. Your gun WILL jam when you need it not to the most, you'll drop it in mud and it'll get froze up, etc. You don't have these problems with a properly selected and trained with melee weapon. Yes you have to be up close and personal, but bashing something upside the head with a weapon that is DESIGNED to do so and will be fully serviceable afterwords is better than ruining your gun in a last ditch effort to save yourself.
Last edited by Malleolus on Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by Zpocalypse_GBG » Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:31 am

ferball wrote:Having done some fencing at a competitive level years ago I will attest to the craziness of the SCA. What little experience I had with them, their idea of melee was based on D&D. So here are some of my melee Insights based on actually "sword fighting".

Battle Axes, War Hammers, etc. one word, Inertia. Watch the final fight in that old Liam Neeson movie "Rob Roy" to understand why battle axes and war hammers and other large slow weapons were developed as a result of armor advances, not practical one on one weapons. Tomahawk or a nice framing hammer make a lot more sense if you are going up against an unarmored zombie.

Halberd, Pole Arm, Bo Staff etc. Think about the "close" in close quarter, ever notice how much space they need in a Kung Fu movie when the bo staffs or spears come out? If you run into a zombie inside the average american dwelling, you would have no room to use such a weapon. Not to mention how awkward wondering around with such weapons can be.

Swords come in all shapes and styles and many of them would suffer from the problems listed above. A small Gladius would be an ideal Zombie weapon, but why be exotic and special, when a machete or my personal favorite The Woodsman Pal offer the same effect in a more useful package.

Also consider "poking" vs. "swinging" In close quarters it may be a lot easier to "poke" your foe vs "swinging" at him. Also a "poke" will do more damage as the energy of the blow is focused to a single point, not spread across the entire blade. Try it some time, have somebody swing at you with a bat, then have them "jab" you with a bat with the same amount of force. An your second trip to the doctor your medical professional will note more trauma than the first. So consider going down jabbing instead of swinging.

So there you have it all the nonsense I have learned in my life as it relates to primitive weapons.
I think your best bet would be a basic ice pick, and or pick axe. Enough inertia to break the skull, but sleak enough to not get stuck, and light enough, so as to not bog you down.

I think your primary melee weapon should be based on utility. Thus a machete, hatchet, or crow bar seem the best/easiest to aquire items, as they are dual purpose, useful for setting up camp, light enough to have at your waist, but lethal enough to take out a zed head.
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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by Malleolus » Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:11 pm

ferball wrote:Having done some fencing at a competitive level years ago I will attest to the craziness of the SCA. What little experience I had with them, their idea of melee was based on D&D. So here are some of my melee Insights based on actually "sword fighting".

Battle Axes, War Hammers, etc. one word, Inertia. Watch the final fight in that old Liam Neeson movie "Rob Roy" to understand why battle axes and war hammers and other large slow weapons were developed as a result of armor advances, not practical one on one weapons. Tomahawk or a nice framing hammer make a lot more sense if you are going up against an unarmored zombie.

Halberd, Pole Arm, Bo Staff etc. Think about the "close" in close quarter, ever notice how much space they need in a Kung Fu movie when the bo staffs or spears come out? If you run into a zombie inside the average american dwelling, you would have no room to use such a weapon. Not to mention how awkward wondering around with such weapons can be.

Swords come in all shapes and styles and many of them would suffer from the problems listed above. A small Gladius would be an ideal Zombie weapon, but why be exotic and special, when a machete or my personal favorite The Woodsman Pal offer the same effect in a more useful package.

Also consider "poking" vs. "swinging" In close quarters it may be a lot easier to "poke" your foe vs "swinging" at him. Also a "poke" will do more damage as the energy of the blow is focused to a single point, not spread across the entire blade. Try it some time, have somebody swing at you with a bat, then have them "jab" you with a bat with the same amount of force. An your second trip to the doctor your medical professional will note more trauma than the first. So consider going down jabbing instead of swinging.

So there you have it all the nonsense I have learned in my life as it relates to primitive weapons.
My argument to you is this: I am an armorer, meaning a blacksmith that makes primitive weapons and various types of armor. Swords are NOT a good weapon for getting KILLS against zeds because of their LOW momentum. There is a reason that executions by beheading were performed with AXES rather than swords, axes allowed the executioner to get a (singular) clean cut straight through the neck, whereas swords it took multiple blows, and keep in mind that executions were performed with the most ideal conditions for beheading, a not moving target, that exposes the hardest part of the neck to get through (the spine) and is also the critical structure to sever to insure a kill in a zombie. And to all of you who think a katana is the best zed weapon, do ACTUAL research, not watching movies. It's been tested a hundred times, from Mythbusters to true blue research organizations, it is not possible for even professional swordsman who have trained years with the weapon to get a clean blow through the neck. Mythbusters even went so far as to hire a professional modern master samurai to perform the test and it took him multiple blows to get 1 beheading and that was with him hauling out on it, he was exhausted after it. Take it from a person who actually MAKES and USES the weapons he chose, rather than returning to your movies and using them as "evidence".

I do not watch "Kung Fu" movies, I find them boring, stupid, and totally impractical when it comes to true combat situations.

Do not tell me that war hammers, battle axes, and the like are not suited for close quarters combat with the idea of getting a 1 shot, 1 kill blow on a zed. No only are they designed for multiple choke points and still maintaining the force required for piercing/crushing the human skull, they were designed to be used in BATTLE where you are shoulder to shoulder with your companions and in the face of your foes. The very notion that they aren't show's your lack of actual research into the subject of medieval battles that were fought solely with melee weapons. YOUR idea about what a battleaxe or warhammer is is obviously skewed because you play to many RPG games where they have blades that are 2+ feet across and would weigh 20+ pounds on the light side. I'm talking true period authentic combat grade weapons that are designed for the sole purpose of overcoming an armored foe in as few blows as possible and are designed around crushing the human skull, cleaving through it, or beheading in 1 blow with as little exertion on the user as possible, not to mention taking limbs off. Knights used these weapons as primary weapons in battles that lasted DAYS, they are time tested and their design makes them ideal for getting KILLS against zombies because of their original intention.

Did you see me put a rapier in the list? Did you see me put any fencing weapons in the list? Of course not! Those are showmanship weapons, dueling weapons, not battle weapons. You should have gotten into the armored combat division of the SCA, where your blows don't bend the sword that uses spring steel alloys and accompanying heat treatment, they dent the metal PLATE armor and can break bones easily, and that's with a properly trained master who is cushioning his blows. Fencing was a gentlemens duel, not a battle style.

A halberd was designed to keep your enemy at bay and still deliver fatal blows INCLUDING decapitation. They also took a great deal of training and were relegated to highly trained and elite guards because of their difficulty, but those whom were adept with the weapon were some of the deadliest opponents to face.

No, really? A bat, which is designed to hit a really small object somewhere along its striking surface, does more damage when you ram it into someone on the head? I'd never have figured that out! It's not like it wasn't designed to hit a really large object that has soft tissue to protect the vital areas rather than a small hard ball that doesn't absorb the force of the blow rather it's propelled in the same direction of the blow to compensate for the trauma.

"Poking" in close quarters is easy, of course, when you are aiming for the torso where you have a lot of really painful and normally deadly locations to target. But when someone gets too close, your "poke" is ineffective because you don't have the room to properly maneuver the weapon. Guess what, a swinging weapon like a battleaxe is designed for those really close quarter situations where the broad side can be used as a shield and it has the structural rigidity needed to get the foe away from you without breaking and can be twisted and bring out the deadly part of the weapon, whereas with a "poking" weapon you have to change your entire stance to bring the weapon back into its effective range. Try getting smacked in the head with a broomstick compared with getting smacked in the face with a large faced hammer and it's not hard to figure which is going to deliver a more debilitating blow, and that's what you get with using a war hammer in close quarters defense verses a PIERCING or JABBING weapon like a spear.

An actual battle ready quarter staff or bo staff has a plated tip on it to be used as a piercing weapon, I'm not taking a personal defense type that has rounded ends. They can also be outfitted with weighted orbs on the end to be used to bash through the skull of an opponent, depending on the fighting style you choose to use with the weapon.

I've argued with more than a dozen people all week who use HOLLYWOOD and RPG'S to dictate their opinions on what melee weapon they would use in a zpoc world, and that's with me telling them that I MAKE THE DAMN THINGS.
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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by velojym » Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:54 pm

Go on, tell us how you really feel. :mrgreen:
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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by azrael99 » Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:19 pm

why not just use your tool as melee weapon ? a good tomahawk is a great weapon, if you take one with a hammer side then you have a hammer/ warhammer, it doesn't weight that much, and is actually practical.

think versatile, a baseball bat would be more effective as a weapon, but you can only use it as such. a crowbar would be versatile, but it weigh at least twice more than a tomahawk and only have few practical application. you don't need a full size axe too. for the same weight you can have a sawvivor and a tomahawk. both smaller than the axe for the same weight.
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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by Malleolus » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:08 pm

Hmmm... though I'll admit that I got a little frustrated in that post, I do believe I got my point across: people rely on 1 or 2 experiences to dictate their decision on things, and rely on what they see in Hollywood and games to make flash judgments on things they haven't done any actual true research on. And yes, it royally p***** me the **** off when people tell me I'm wrong even when I tell them that I make the items they choose to argue with me about.
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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by azrael99 » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:55 pm

i agree with you except on one thing, i don't believe in carrying something that intend to be use ONLY as a weapon. but i believe in a tool that can be serve as a weapon or a weapon with practical use.

since you are familiar with sword, axe and dagger, you will agree than: most of the most well prepare to survive in harsh condition clan, warrior and army, were using everyday what they used in battle. mostly soldiers.

during the viking times, viking used their axe for everyday need AND also for combat and pillage. Anglo and Saxon receive as their first own tool/weapon a scramasax that was a multiple purpose knife that was still used by warrior. scythe were used by farmer but also in battle. hunting sword were also used as infantry weapon, machete-type knife used to cut grass and bush were used as combat knife or short sword.

the bo can be used as a walking stick, that practical, if you carry a CS bushman knife you can even convert it into a spear, and by having the CS bushman you got yourself a good all around fixed knife.

what i try to say that, we must remember what our ancestor used to survive AND battle. they were using multipurpose tools that was used in a switch into deadly weapons

think versatility people, that save, weight, space and life
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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by velojym » Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:33 am

Yeah, I get all asterisk-ey too sometimes. :lol:

...but I try not to get too worked up about killing mythical creatures. Just not real good for the ol' blood pressure.
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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by Malleolus » Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:14 am

azrael99 wrote:i agree with you except on one thing, i don't believe in carrying something that intend to be use ONLY as a weapon. but i believe in a tool that can be serve as a weapon or a weapon with practical use.

since you are familiar with sword, axe and dagger, you will agree than: most of the most well prepare to survive in harsh condition clan, warrior and army, were using everyday what they used in battle. mostly soldiers.

during the viking times, viking used their axe for everyday need AND also for combat and pillage. Anglo and Saxon receive as their first own tool/weapon a scramasax that was a multiple purpose knife that was still used by warrior. scythe were used by farmer but also in battle. hunting sword were also used as infantry weapon, machete-type knife used to cut grass and bush were used as combat knife or short sword.

the bo can be used as a walking stick, that practical, if you carry a CS bushman knife you can even convert it into a spear, and by having the CS bushman you got yourself a good all around fixed knife.

what i try to say that, we must remember what our ancestor used to survive AND battle. they were using multipurpose tools that was used in a switch into deadly weapons

think versatility people, that save, weight, space and life
Yes, I can fully agree with you there. I weighted my selection on having a staging area set up (it's part of my contingency planning) which is why I stated at the end of the list that I excluded utility. Plus, I agree with you about the viking and mongolian invasions, but at the same time they were clans that didn't have the resources most people had, so they taught themselves how to use their tools as weapons, and were excellent blitz warriors and all around survivalists, but when they were actually up against an organized and fully battle ready and outfitted army they quickly broke in most cases, and their weapons rarely fared well after their battles, which is why they were also notorious pillagers, they were replacing their arsenal. It's one thing to be on the move and trying to get to a safe location, it's another thing entirely when you have that safe location and have the resources for a counter-offensive or properly layed out defensive. I'm not the type to just launch out without a game plan, and as I said I'm kinda a special case due to my personal background; I would take the extra few pounds to carry a combat devoted weapon alongside my gear, because as I said they aren't a whole lot of extra weight and having something I know I can rely on consistently during an engagement is better than using just any utility tool as a weapon though it is not intended to do so. By their very design you run the risk of at least loosing your grip on them much easier because you are using them under conditions well outside their intended use, worst case scenario you wind up wounding or killing yourself because you were trying to swing a sledge hammer like a sword in a last ditch effort to dispatch an unexpected foe and smashing yourself in the back of the head instead, or bringing a clawed hammers blade into your leg because you overcompensated.
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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by Tater Raider » Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:54 pm

Old school tomahawk. It's a hammer, hatchet, and throwing axe. Pure win.

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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by azrael99 » Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:27 pm

i agree on that point, if you gonna be static, THEN you should invest into weapon purpose. but if you are on the go, you could think about a multipurpose weapon/tool
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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by Malleolus » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:51 am

Eh, different strokes for different folks but I still think the couple extra pounds of carrying weight is worth it.
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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by Maverick299 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:04 am

This is my melee weapon of choice for many reasons. Stilletto 14 oz Framing Hammer

1.) I already own one and it is in my truck 24/7
2.) I framed houses for a few years so I have hundreds of hours of practice swinging it
3.) It has multiple uses in any bug out/ ZPAW/ EOTWAWKI scenario
4.) 14 oz titanium head, this is not your average hammer, it weighs next to nothing so it doesn't wear you down as fast to carry or swing it.
5.) Doesn't draw attention like a sword or battle axe would.
6.) I'm not a Samurai, a knight, or a lumber jack......just a man with a hammer!

Feel free to offer opinions or judgement on my choice, I can take it. :D


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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by TerryGecko » Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:31 am

When SHTF, I will always have 2 items with me no matter what the situation is. My FiveseveN and Musashi Ko Katana. I understand there is a lot of hate for the katana but I've trained with one more or less a few days a week since I started Taekwondo when I was 12. It takes a lot of practice but it is extremely prolific. I have deliberately studied the Ko Katana because it's smaller/lighter. You can swing with both hands but it's short enough to use CQC. I realize I'm not going to be decapitating anything with it but I could surely incapacitate one with a single blow. Easily enough that it would no longer be a threat to me. Personally, I feel that I could subdue a zombie with a katana more efficiently and effectively than any other melee weapon. However, my chances at survival have decreases dramatically if I am forced to use a melee weapon.

When I can't hide/flee, I am out of ammo for my AR/PS90 and sidearm, or need to dispatch a zombie quietly, that's when I'll have my Katana. It's not for everyone but it works for me.

Something else to look into is Cold Steel's katanas if you don't have a lot of training. They are bigger/heavier than other "authentic" swords. I have one and you can basically just swing it like a baseball bat and it cuts anything in it's path. If swords aren't your thing, I would use some type of tool like someone mentioned before me. An Axe or Hammer.
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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by Malleolus » Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:31 pm

TerryGecko wrote:When SHTF, I will always have 2 items with me no matter what the situation is. My FiveseveN and Musashi Ko Katana. I understand there is a lot of hate for the katana but I've trained with one more or less a few days a week since I started Taekwondo when I was 12. It takes a lot of practice but it is extremely prolific. I have deliberately studied the Ko Katana because it's smaller/lighter. You can swing with both hands but it's short enough to use CQC. I realize I'm not going to be decapitating anything with it but I could surely incapacitate one with a single blow. Easily enough that it would no longer be a threat to me. Personally, I feel that I could subdue a zombie with a katana more efficiently and effectively than any other melee weapon. However, my chances at survival have decreases dramatically if I am forced to use a melee weapon.

When I can't hide/flee, I am out of ammo for my AR/PS90 and sidearm, or need to dispatch a zombie quietly, that's when I'll have my Katana. It's not for everyone but it works for me.

Something else to look into is Cold Steel's katanas if you don't have a lot of training. They are bigger/heavier than other "authentic" swords. I have one and you can basically just swing it like a baseball bat and it cuts anything in it's path. If swords aren't your thing, I would use some type of tool like someone mentioned before me. An Axe or Hammer.
I have no hate for the katana, in fact they are one of the more annoying and entertaining things to make properly, but my personal aim is for an "extermination" blow. It's a personal style preference I suppose, I'm a bigger guy, stronger but slower in pace so when I engage something I'm going for a more direct fighting style, permanently eliminate a threat with a high degree of efficiency. Any sword, especially a katana, is a more finesse weapon and serves it's place for certain people. It's lighter, faster, and great for (in the case of a zpoc) defense and incapacitating your foe, but they are not going to be killing blows, and for my personal style that is a deal breaker.
Dare you not mettle
in the affairs of dragons...
for you are crunchy and taste like chicken...
and come prepackaged with ketchup.

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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by Malleolus » Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:40 pm

Maverick299 wrote:This is my melee weapon of choice for many reasons. Stilletto 14 oz Framing Hammer

1.) I already own one and it is in my truck 24/7
2.) I framed houses for a few years so I have hundreds of hours of practice swinging it
3.) It has multiple uses in any bug out/ ZPAW/ EOTWAWKI scenario
4.) 14 oz titanium head, this is not your average hammer, it weighs next to nothing so it doesn't wear you down as fast to carry or swing it.
5.) Doesn't draw attention like a sword or battle axe would.
6.) I'm not a Samurai, a knight, or a lumber jack......just a man with a hammer!

Feel free to offer opinions or judgement on my choice, I can take it. :D


Image
By all means use what you are comfortable with, like I said previously I'd grab a sledge hammer I've used in my smithing in a pinch for the exact same reason as you. My only debate with you is this: Titanium will make it have excellent resiliency but does it have enough weight behind it to carry a strong blow or are you going to have to put forth extra effort to get the same overall force a steel model would of increased weight? Titanium is 40% lighter than steel of the same dimensions, or somewhere around there, so roughly yes, you'll have to put an equal amount of force extra into the blow for a killing blow. Just something I thought you should consider :)
Dare you not mettle
in the affairs of dragons...
for you are crunchy and taste like chicken...
and come prepackaged with ketchup.

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Maverick299
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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by Maverick299 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:13 pm

Malleolus wrote:
Maverick299 wrote:This is my melee weapon of choice for many reasons. Stilletto 16 oz Framing Hammer

By all means use what you are comfortable with, like I said previously I'd grab a sledge hammer I've used in my smithing in a pinch for the exact same reason as you. My only debate with you is this: Titanium will make it have excellent resiliency but does it have enough weight behind it to carry a strong blow or are you going to have to put forth extra effort to get the same overall force a steel model would of increased weight? Titanium is 40% lighter than steel of the same dimensions, or somewhere around there, so roughly yes, you'll have to put an equal amount of force extra into the blow for a killing blow. Just something I thought you should consider :)
I can drive 16 Penny nails with a single blow. But you do bring up a good point and asked a great question. The design of this hammer is that it delivers as much force as a 26oz steel hammer with a similar swing. I think the weight increases head speed during swing so you get that whole mass x velocity scenario when comparing small/light objects to heavy/slow things. I believe a lot went into the design of this hammer to make it perform the way it does, I think there is also something to do with the way Titanium absorbs and transmits shock from the blow into your hand allowing more energy to transfer into the object you are striking. There is a reason that pretty much every framer I've ever known buys a $100 hammer and swears by them! When I started framing houses I swung a borrowed 26oz for about half a day, went out the next day and bought one of these and never looked back. A 26oz flat out tires you out after swinging it a few times, the Stilletto you can swing all day. It's hard to explain until you swing it just how much energy you can deliver with a 16oz hammer with very little effort into your swing.
The Devil's always smiling when I pass by.

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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by Malleolus » Sat Mar 31, 2012 5:31 am

Maverick299 wrote:
Malleolus wrote:
Maverick299 wrote:This is my melee weapon of choice for many reasons. Stilletto 16 oz Framing Hammer

By all means use what you are comfortable with, like I said previously I'd grab a sledge hammer I've used in my smithing in a pinch for the exact same reason as you. My only debate with you is this: Titanium will make it have excellent resiliency but does it have enough weight behind it to carry a strong blow or are you going to have to put forth extra effort to get the same overall force a steel model would of increased weight? Titanium is 40% lighter than steel of the same dimensions, or somewhere around there, so roughly yes, you'll have to put an equal amount of force extra into the blow for a killing blow. Just something I thought you should consider :)
I can drive 16 Penny nails with a single blow. But you do bring up a good point and asked a great question. The design of this hammer is that it delivers as much force as a 26oz steel hammer with a similar swing. I think the weight increases head speed during swing so you get that whole mass x velocity scenario when comparing small/light objects to heavy/slow things. I believe a lot went into the design of this hammer to make it perform the way it does, I think there is also something to do with the way Titanium absorbs and transmits shock from the blow into your hand allowing more energy to transfer into the object you are striking. There is a reason that pretty much every framer I've ever known buys a $100 hammer and swears by them! When I started framing houses I swung a borrowed 26oz for about half a day, went out the next day and bought one of these and never looked back. A 26oz flat out tires you out after swinging it a few times, the Stilletto you can swing all day. It's hard to explain until you swing it just how much energy you can deliver with a 16oz hammer with very little effort into your swing.
;) I understand that, but keep in mind that the nail is designed to puncture through the wood. Yes titanium delivers a vast majority of the force, but that is to a very small point, not a large area like the human skull. Trust me, you can get used using a larger hammer over an extended period of time. I typically use a 48oz sledge in reducing stock bars into profile shapes, which can take hours.
Dare you not mettle
in the affairs of dragons...
for you are crunchy and taste like chicken...
and come prepackaged with ketchup.

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Re: Combat tactics 101: Melee weapon choice

Post by foxx » Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:18 am

So you think you have to hit the entire area of a skull, to do damage? I better replace my guns and ammo with cannon balls :roll:

Swords, axes, tomahawk spikes, bullets, all have a small area of impact, that's partly how they cause damage, thier weight is part of it as well. Speed is just as important, and I can swing a lighter tool/weapon at a faster swing speed. Mass and velocity are important, firearms demonstrate that point.
Each of us have our own level of strength. I may weight 200lbs, but I'll take the Ti hammer over the steel hammer any day. I prefer fast weapons, I can strike more targets in less time. The claw of any hammer will either sink into the skull, or rip chunks out of it.
There is a range of weight of an impact weapon, and I think a 16oz hammer is enough to cause brain damage.
The SOG Fasthawk is only 19oz, and it is fast in hand. The framing hammer has all the weight in the head, that's a good thing, and I bet it's faster.

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