Military & Shotguns?

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Military & Shotguns?

Post by Drake122 » Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:30 pm

This is just something that has had me perplexed for a while, besides their use in Door Breaching have Modern Infantry EVER used Shotguns for Close Quarters, Room to Room Combat?

It's just you don't see much about it, compared to what you see in Movies and Games. I know I sometimes hear people saying just before they leave for an operational tour:

"Oh I'll carry some Slugs and 00 Buckshot just in case..." but I haven't found any concrete proof of a Shotgun ever used for direct CQC with the exception of Marine's using them in the 1940's through 1970's.

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Re: Military & Shotguns?

Post by Finch » Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:43 pm

i've read several articles about shotguns used in iraq

here is one i googled up

http://gunsandammomag.com/cs/Satellite/ ... t+Mossberg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Military & Shotguns?

Post by Verissimus » Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:59 pm

I am 100% certain it has been done. I have seen videos of soldiers carrying them. There is no official stance on it, and really, there doesn't need to be.

Officially, it makes far more sense for the military to issue one firearm (or closer to a family of firearms, in reality) and supply the necessary logistics to keep those going. If they were to officially adopt a shotgun in addition to other weapons, it would require them to supply ammo, parts, and service training for that, in addition to any other weapons they may be using. It increases the load on an individual if he is to carry a service rifle, and a shotgun. It decreases the effectiveness, or rather, limits usefulness of an individual if all he has is a shotgun. Either situation is suboptimal.

The current stance, or, lack of stance is a far more efficient means of accomplishing the same task. Officially, as long as they can get the job done, it makes little difference what weapon is used. Some commanding officers may care, but that is probably where the caring ends. If a soldier wants to carry a shotgun, and his CO doesn't care, it is fine. He (The soldier) takes responsibility for supplying it ammo and any necessary service. It is not the military's problem.

Officially, the military wants to sell us on the effectiveness of their guns, so drawing attention to others makes no sense. This is why we hear little of shotguns. It isn't that they don't like shotguns. They just like their guns more, and want us to agree...
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Re: Military & Shotguns?

Post by Hudson » Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:02 pm

Well the British Army have recently adopted a shotgun for use in Afghanistan.

Link here
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Re: Military & Shotguns?

Post by K0ZZZ » Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:16 pm

So where is the cut off line for "modern infantry?"

WWI trench guns were the first. The Germans sent a telegram about it:
"The German Government protests against the use of shotguns by the American Army and calls attention to the fact that, according to the laws of war, every prisoner found to have in his possession such guns or ammunition belonging thereto forfeits his life."

The Germans were referring to a passage in the Hague Decrees, predecessor of the Geneva Convention, which stated, "It is especially forbidden to employ arms, projections, or material calculated to cause unnecessary suffering." The Kaiser's minions also sought to exploit the issue for propaganda purposes, and several German newspapers wrote scathing editorials against this barbaric weapon. For example, the Cologne Gazette opined that "... tommy-hawks and scalping knives would soon make their appearance on the American front ...," and stated that "... Americans are not honorable warriors." The Weser Zeitung newspaper was of the opinion that "... the barbarous shotguns have not been served out because they are likely to be effective but because the ill-trained Americans cannot use rifles and are badly supplied with machine guns."
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Re: Military & Shotguns?

Post by Murph » Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:02 pm

http://www.pro-patria.us/full_spectrum_shotgun" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This is a good article written by a soldier from 10th Mountain Division about shotguns being used in Iraq.
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Re: Military & Shotguns?

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:39 am

Verissimus wrote:
The current stance, or, lack of stance is a far more efficient means of accomplishing the same task.
Officially, as long as they can get the job done, it makes little difference what weapon is used.
Some commanding officers may care, but that is probably where the caring ends.
If a soldier wants to carry a shotgun, and his CO doesn't care, it is fine.
He (The soldier) takes responsibility for supplying it ammo and any necessary service.
It is not the military's problem.

Negative. With the exception of certain (i.e. SpecOps) units, personal weapons are a no-go.

However, when I went to Iraq, the engineers we had attached brought Benellis (issued by command)
and i know as a breacher, I use scatterguns to blow locks (bad idea, but it works) but that doesn't
mean I'm going to sling it back and reach for my M16 to enter a house. Do remember, the only advantage
the the M16 has over any military shotgunis rapid fire capability, but that 12ga 3-in 00 shell tends
to eliminate the need for hammer pairs or double taps, not to mention I can reload faster than most civilians,
but you can't top off an M-16 or fire mid-reload. Lastly, the locals were dea :evil: d afraid of the business end of an M3.
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Re: Military & Shotguns?

Post by Verissimus » Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:54 am

Doc Torr wrote: Negative. With the exception of certain (i.e. SpecOps) units, personal weapons are a no-go.
Is this something new? The only restrictions I had heard about was a few years ago, they stopped allowing 1911's, because of over-penetration issues. This is what I had heard from a few people who have been over there.

I am by no means an expert on the subject.
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Re: Military & Shotguns?

Post by TDW586 » Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:46 pm

Verissimus wrote:
Doc Torr wrote: Negative. With the exception of certain (i.e. SpecOps) units, personal weapons are a no-go.
Is this something new? The only restrictions I had heard about was a few years ago, they stopped allowing 1911's, because of over-penetration issues. This is what I had heard from a few people who have been over there.

I am by no means an expert on the subject.


Dude, whoever told you that was full of shit. Personal weapons for military personnell in a combat zone? Negative, not going to happen. Not in the last fifty years anyway.
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Re: Military & Shotguns?

Post by EricinVirginia » Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:31 pm

Shotguns appear in games because most of the time you're fighting monsters that are bigger than a human or you're only able to really engage them up close, which is where game graphics do a great job. They do a less than great job allowing you to shoot at far away targets. They simulate it, but poorly.

Shotguns appear in movies for the same reason... up close and personal is where all the action is. Since shotguns are more common and familiar to more people you draw in the viewers more than if you showed military hardware a normal person would never have a chance of seeing.

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Re: Military & Shotguns?

Post by Paladin1 » Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:10 pm

I must admit to taking some satisfaction on seeing articles on the use of modern shotguns in combat. :D :D :D
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Re: Military & Shotguns?

Post by EricinVirginia » Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:16 pm

Agreed Paladin. I found a few articles like this and it resulted in our having Mossberg 500As and the Saiga 12 gauges. As much as we gloat about M16s and M4s, I have to believe the Russians feel the same way about their AKs and Saigas. Too bad we don't all speak the same language.

I read these and sent them to my wife. I loved the story about the LTL confrontation with the looter crowd. I sent it on to my wife and some others. It's a shame that Maryland doesn't encourage me to feel good about LTL.

The other link was primarily about the challenges of using a shotgun in combat with a subtle recommendation to have soldiers not get confused about the type of ammo they're packing.

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Re: Military & Shotguns?

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:01 am

EricinMaryland wrote:Agreed Paladin. I found a few articles like this and it resulted in our having Mossberg 500As and the Saiga 12 gauges. As much as we gloat about M16s and M4s, I have to believe the Russians feel the same way about their AKs and Saigas. Too bad we don't all speak the same language.

I read these and sent them to my wife. I loved the story about the LTL confrontation with the looter crowd. I sent it on to my wife and some others. It's a shame that Maryland doesn't encourage me to feel good about LTL.

The other link was primarily about the challenges of using a shotgun in combat with a subtle recommendation to have soldiers not get confused about the type of ammo they're packing.
1: Who's gloating about M16/M4's? 99% of the enlisted infantry (in my personal experience) hate those things. The Mossy's are G2G, same with Saigas. Sorry, I'll stop before this becomes a "Flame Stoner Rifles" thread.

2: On the ammo thing, i agree. Our boomstick bearers usually trained with two ammo pouches/shell carriers, left side for shot, right side for slugs. We didn't get any of the HS/LG rounds (thundershells, dragonsbreath) because of the liability that one misplaced shell could mean. Imagine bouncing a thundershell (flashbang) back onto your squad instead of blowing out a lock. Nasty.

3. Yes, range is an issue, but most shotgunners were also breachers/sappers, not the front guys in the line. Also, when working in CQB, engagements were often less than 100yd, and as much as possible, Marines try to get real close to the adversary, solving the issue. Sorry, no advice on anything outside iraq. Never been, no personal experience/training on that fight.
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Re: Military & Shotguns?

Post by EricinVirginia » Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:06 am

By "we gloat" I meant that in movies, popular media, news articles, and guys talking... the M16/4s are always portratyed as being way better than anything else out there. I was making a general comment about American pride in our guns. I'm glad to see shotguns becoming part of the discussion.

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Re: Military & Shotguns?

Post by hundvonkrieg » Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:30 am

lol, after this, im getting rid of my charles daily for a mossberg 590
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Re: Military & Shotguns?

Post by mk_ultra » Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:14 am

A good friend of mine who was in a NG unit got tasked with street side security during the first election in Iraq.

He was issued a M21 , an M4 , and an M9 . For whatever reason , he decided he wanted a shotgun for the day . He went down to the armory to get one . Seeing that this is a NG unit , apparently they have some oddball items in their inventory .

He passed by all the new Mossbergs they had and picked a mint condition Winchester Model12 trenchgun complete with Garand bayonet . :D

I have to see if he has pics of this . I thought it was awesome .
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Re: Military & Shotguns?

Post by Murph » Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:42 pm

That Trenchblaster should get written off as a "combat lost" somehow. :wink:
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Re: Military & Shotguns?

Post by k2enemy84 » Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:39 pm

My buddy was trained on an HK scattergun at TBS for the USMC and I have seen many pictures depicting marines conducting raids with scatterguns
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Re: Military & Shotguns?

Post by wbfos » Sat Nov 07, 2009 10:19 pm

Military shotguns aren't seen much because they arn't updated often:
1. WWII Winchester 12 trench gun
2. Mossberg 500 pump (my favorite)
3. Binelli semi-auto. (can get a M-4 for about the same price)
Remington also makes a 2+1 pump that fits under the M-4 barrel for breaching. (remington instead of Mossberg because of the saftey location)

When it comes to PAW I'll take my Mossy over an M-4 100% of the time. I can train someone to use a shotgun effectively in a very short time using less ammo than a rifle or side arm.
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Re: Military & Shotguns?

Post by wbfos » Sat Nov 07, 2009 10:38 pm

"However, when I went to Iraq, the engineers we had attached brought Benellis (issued by command)
and i know as a breacher, I use scatterguns to blow locks (bad idea, but it works) but that doesn't
mean I'm going to sling it back and reach for my M16 to enter a house. Do remember, the only advantage
the the M16 has over any military shotgunis rapid fire capability, but that 12ga 3-in 00 shell tends
to eliminate the need for hammer pairs or double taps, not to mention I can reload faster than most civilians,
but you can't top off an M-16 or fire mid-reload. Lastly, the locals were dea :evil: d afraid of the business end of an M3."

The Binelli is what the Army is buying now but I'll take a Mossberg 500 or a Remington 870 any day. A Binelli you have to wory about your powder load in the ammo being to strong or weak for your spring but a pump dont care.
With 9 pellets of "OO" buck in a shell + 6 rounds in the shotgun + 3 seconds to unload all 6 rounds, = 54 rounds of .38 cal ammo nothing short of a chain gun will match it...
Reloading takes practice but once you devolop the muscle memory you can fly through a reload. Chances are a zombie wont stop the buckshot so you might get 2 for one if they bunch up. (use slugs and you can keep score) I can reload as I shoot It takes practice but is not difficult.
a .22 and a 12 ga "Who could ask for anything more..."

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Re: Military & Shotguns?

Post by SixStringRazor » Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:40 pm

I know the AF actually deploys people with shotguns for bird control purposes on the flight line. Not combat per se, but they do shoot stuff with them.

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Re: Military & Shotguns?

Post by Murph » Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:14 pm

SixStringRazor wrote:I know the AF actually deploys people with shotguns for bird control purposes on the flight line. Not combat per se, but they do shoot stuff with them.
Makes sense, but why not just use conventional products like propane powered noise makers? "Sound cannons," I think?
Does your BOB at least have: water, basic tools, fire, food, first-aid kit, and shelter?
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Re: Military & Shotguns?

Post by Subdiver » Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:58 pm

Again, not Infantry, but on Subs, we were well trained on the tricks of using shotties in confined spaces. Tricks like controlled bouncing of 00 buck on steel bulkheads. (Bank shot, anyone?) We used full stock 870's and Mossie 500's. Made in the '60's and 70's, nice old wood stocks.
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Re: Military & Shotguns?

Post by Teeth55 » Thu Nov 12, 2009 6:12 pm

Hmmmmm.....for some reason I always thought that shotguns were banned from declared wars by the Hague Conventions. But I guess that it's just hollow point and expanding ammunitions which are banned. And now I believe that I have a new favorite weapon configuration.
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