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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:32 am 
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Sworbeyegib wrote:
gunsandrockets wrote:
Redeyes wrote:
Yeah, the rifle was more effective than I thought it would be with the cheap ammo I was using. It made a tiny entry hole and blew the back out of the coconut. I think even with this ammo a zombie would have a good chunk of brain blown out and be leaking. With decent ammo I would guess the wound would be even worse. The shotgun had more than enough power at that range to burst the coconut into a great many pieces. Effectiveness was not a factor with either weapon, so I think further testing using actual coconuts is unnecessary. While I think both the rifle and shotgun times could be improved, it was interesting to note that I was dropping nearly a half second per repetition with the rifle. I believe I could be much faster after more practice with the rifle than I was in that test.


I suspect that at a range of 19 feet even birdshot would burst the coconut.


Jeriah posted a couple of coconut tests using various rounds. Birdshot didn't penetrate during either test. Not sure of the exact distance of size of birdshot, but I'm assuming something around 7 1/2.


viewtopic.php?f=18&t=113386&p=2549398&hilit=birdshot+coconut&sid=dd2d8d828109618d1e8145af34f5e058#p2549398

The test range was 45 feet using a target load intended for clay pigeons. Perhaps such a load won't break a coconut at 19 feet, but I still bet any birdshot load good enough for duck hunting would break a coconut at such a close range. Of course only testing will tell.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:48 am 
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procyon wrote:
Redeyes wrote:
I believe I could be much faster after more practice with the rifle than I was in that test.


I don't doubt that in the least.

My only worry, after listening to my boys, is that they are trying to figure out how to 'game' the test.
I may have to change some of it a bit to try and prevent them from doing so.

What they have been discussing, goes something like this.
When they go to shoot - instead of trying to hit the moving target - they will 'mark' where the can swings against the background and simply aim at that point.
Instead of trying to shoot the moving object, they will simply shoot that stationary point and try and time the can's swing. Or will try to lay down a 'wall' of bullets for the can to cross.

Granted, it sounds like an effective way to put rounds on the target. And the tactic will also work for the shotguns and would significantly improve the hit % for some folks.

But it would defeat what the test is trying to accomplish.
I may have to rig a way to vary the height of the can. Or perhaps hang several from the same string and then not call which one to engage until the line is released. Then they won't be able to 'point shoot' the targets.
I think I like the multiple cans idea. It may allow attempts to engage multiple targets. One on the 'out' swing, and one on the 'return' swing...
8-)


I don't know. Is such gaming of the test really bad? Would it really corrupt the measure of the effectiveness of rifle fire? I say, let 'em try. Game away, see if it makes any difference. I suspect the 'wall of bullets' tactic will utterly fail. But picking an ideal aiming point might work.

Zombies seem like creatures with a fairly slow and predictable gait. If I was shooting at a moving zombie head with a rifle, I would probably try to pick an aiming point where the head was moving the least.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:56 am 
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gunsandrockets wrote:
Perhaps such a load won't break a coconut at 19 feet, but I still bet any birdshot load good enough for duck hunting would break a coconut at such a close range. Of course only testing will tell.


I don't know about the coconut test at 19 feet with birdshot. I just haven't taken up shooting coconuts.

But I do know that we shot a load with 1 1/4 oz of #4 birdshot at a target at 10 yards.
It fulfilled two of the criteria we set (total energy on target, total area of impact/wound) - but it was a fail on the ability to penetrate 3/4" plywood.
Which suprised me (#4's tend to overpenetrate rabbits and squirrels, even at 25 yards or more), but it is what it is.
The next larger shot I have is BB's. Which passes at 10 yards, but fails at 15 yards on our penetration test (although it does bulge the back of the board where the pellets end up).

So for us, the smallest pellet that could be marginally effective would be BB's at ranges out to 10(+ ?) yards.
4 Buck to 25 yards.
And 00 Buck to 15 (+ ?, based on wound area/not penetration, more testing needed - might pass at 20 yet) yards.

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Zombies seem like creatures with a fairly slow and predictable gait. If I was shooting at a moving zombie head with a rifle, I would probably try to pick an aiming point where the head was moving the least.


As I have said before, I am basing my tests against a zombie that would be able to run as fast as a normal person. The 'fast' zombie.
If I can outwalk the zombie - I don't care what weapon I have. If it can't catch me - it's not a threat.
Now if it doesn't tire and can run me down, then putting it down, reliably, becomes a priority for me.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 1:21 am 
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gunsandrockets wrote:
Redeyes wrote:
After thoughts: More testing needs to be done. Both weapons did the job very well. With more practice the times could be shortened considerably. Being careful not to shoot my contraption was a factor. Testing would have benefited greatly from having a range buddy.

Conclusion: Shotgun seems to have the edge in this test, however, the deck was stacked in favor of the shotgun. More distance or several zombies shambling toward you would make the rifle more ideal. Still the shotgun had less of a learning curve and was faster on target, even though I have far more experience with my rifle than any shotgun. The shotgun may be the best choice for a person new to shooting who can handle the recoil and needs to put down a couple shamblers.


I suspect you are wrong about greater distance favoring the rifle. Of course further testing will tell.


At 100 yards what you hit with buckshot probably won't be what you are aiming at. I could stack the deck in favor of the rifle easily. Wouldn't be relevant or useful but I could. Now if you are talking about adding a couple of yards or something you are probably right. For this test I wanted the distance that would produce the most optimal spread for popping domes at the furthest distance. My hypothesis is that is about a 3.5 inch circle.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 11:25 am 
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Redeyes wrote:
procyon wrote:
Your results look a bit like ours, just slightly closer to the target.

Looks like you have about a 67% successful engagement with the shotgun on the moving target in less than 2 seconds - vs our 70 +/- percent.
Which also agrees with my youngest girl tagging 2 out of 3 cans at 15 yards with her shotgun.
Pretty darn close. I would call it supportive data.
So far it looks that from about 6 yards to 15 yards, with shooters having moderate experience, there will be around 67% successful engagments in less than 2 seconds.

And you also seem to support what we noticed (but I didn't put in the post) - it was nearly always with the first shell.
If you missed with the shotgun, follow up shots tended to also miss. At least with pumps. We have yet to get out the SA shotguns.

It looks like you required about twice the amount of time to get successful engagements with the rifle, but that it was as effective as the shotgun in successful engagements and rounds expended to achieve them. Which would give the high cap carbines/rifles an edge.
Now I am really curious how our shoot is going to turn out. This could be really interesting.
8-)


Yeah, the rifle was more effective than I thought it would be with the cheap ammo I was using. It made a tiny entry hole and blew the back out of the coconut. I think even with this ammo a zombie would have a good chunk of brain blown out and be leaking. With decent ammo I would guess the wound would be even worse. The shotgun had more than enough power at that range to burst the coconut into a great many pieces. Effectiveness was not a factor with either weapon, so I think further testing using actual coconuts is unnecessary. While I think both the rifle and shotgun times could be improved, it was interesting to note that I was dropping nearly a half second per repetition with the rifle. I believe I could be much faster after more practice with the rifle than I was in that test.




That's pretty much the story with a high velocity round. :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 8:33 pm 
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I reread one of my posts. I wish to add that I intend to do more coconut testing with the shotgun and a handgun at a later date. I do not think I need to coconut test the rifle further.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 5:45 am 
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gunsandrockets wrote:
Redeyes wrote:
I had a chance to do my test today. I will provide pics when my girlfriend has a moment to locate the usb cord.

Firearms were:
Shotgun; Remington 870 Express with green fiber optic front bead and 28 inch barrel

Rifle; 16 inch mid length with Aimpoint.

I had planned to do irons but my brother had installed the fiber optic front bead on the test shotgun, so I decided to use my Aimpoint on my rifle.

Ammo was:
Remington Express 2 3/4 00 9 pellets
Wolf 62gr .223

Test distance was 19ft. That was the distance that the shotgun made a nice large fist or small coconut pattern with the buckshot I used.

Coconuts were mounted on a contraption made of 2x4's. Ever played hangman? It looked like that. The contraption was 9ft tall and had a 3'4" piece of cord suspending the coconut 5'8" off the ground. The coconuts were swung back and forth giving them something like a 6' arc. I decided that par time should be 5 seconds. That would give a shambler just enough time to get into grapple range. Shots were timed with a Pocket Pro 2 shot timer. I was at high ready with safety on at the beep.

Shotgun:
1st test; 6.37, total destruction of coconut, fail 3 shells fired
2nd test; 1.80, total destruction of coconut, pass 1 shell fired
3rd test; 1.91, total destruction of coconut, pass 1 shell fired

Rifle:
4th test; 4.52, grazed the coconut, fail, 2 rounds fired
5th test; 3.85, coconut had tiny entry hole and huge exit hole, pass, 2 rounds fired
6th test; 3.43, coconut had tiny entry hole and huge exit hole, pass, 1 round fired

After thoughts: More testing needs to be done. Both weapons did the job very well. With more practice the times could be shortened considerably. Being careful not to shoot my contraption was a factor. Testing would have benefited greatly from having a range buddy.

Conclusion: Shotgun seems to have the edge in this test, however, the deck was stacked in favor of the shotgun. More distance or several zombies shambling toward you would make the rifle more ideal. Still the shotgun had less of a learning curve and was faster on target, even though I have far more experience with my rifle than any shotgun. The shotgun may be the best choice for a person new to shooting who can handle the recoil and needs to put down a couple shamblers.


Good test. Good report. Interesting pendulum design.

But there is one detail I would like to know if you have it available, what size were your coconut targets? I presume the coconuts were also fairly uniform in size?


I missed this question. There were different sizes. I tried to pair them up in sizes so that of the two closest in size, one would be a shotgun target and one would be a rifle target. In that way I attempted to keep the test objective. The size disparity from the smallest to the largest was not extreme but noticeable. I did not measure them. It did not occur to me. None of the coconuts was much below or above average in my estimation.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:34 am 
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More coconut tests with a different shooter and pistols and premium pistol and rifle ammo
Shooter; Gingerbread Man. Weapon; Maverick Over Under 18" HS 12. Ammo; Remington Express 00 2 3/4.

Same setup as before with swinger. The shotgun patterned 4" at 19 feet so we kept the same distance. Par time 5 seconds

Since we were using a OU shotgun we decided to limit the amount of ammo used per test to two shells.

1st test;
2.43, 2 shells fired, Fail, Unbroken coconut

2nd test;
3.22, 2 shells fired, Pass, 1st shell grazed the coconut, 2nd shell passed through the coconut leaving the outer part unbroken, but a big very easy to see through hole in the middle.

3rd test;
.93, 1 shell fired, Pass, Total destruction of coconut.

Pistol test
Shooter; Gingerbread Man. Weapon; CZ 75. Ammo; 9mm fmj. Same conditions as shotgun test, except that pistols were presented to target before the beep went off.

1st test;
4.08, 3 shots fired, Pass, 2 misses, One through and through close to the center.

2nd test;
.80, 1 shot fired, Pass, total destruction of coconut

3rd test;
2.67, 3 shots fired, Pass, 2 misses, last round blew off one half of the coconut.

Pistol test 2
Shooter; Redeyes. Weapon; Glock 19. Ammo; Wolf Military Classic 9mm fmj. Same conditions as previous pistol test.

1st test;
1.19, 1 shot fired, Pass, Through and through.

2nd test;
6.06, 5 shots fired, Fail, Unbroken coconut.

3rd test;
3.47, 2 shots fired, Pass, Blew bottom off coconut.

Carbine test
Shooter; Gingerbread Man. Weapon; AR-15 with 16 inch barrel and 1.5x mini ACOG. Ammo; American Eagle 55gr fmj.

1st test;
6.65, 4 shots fired, Fail, Small entry hole, big exit hole.

2nd test;
2.36, 3 shots fired, Pass, Blew half of coconut off.

3rd test; Note; Test was done with same rifle but different ammo. Ammo; 77gr OTM.
2.29, 2 shots fired, Pass, Total disintegration, Damage to coconut exceeded damage done by shotguns, pistols or rifles with fmj in all previous tests. It was a thing of beauty.

Extra pistol tests;

1st test; Shooter; Gingerbread Man. Weapon 10mm baby Glock. Ammo 10mm fmj.
3.18; Note; shooter passed the test with his second shot, but in the heat of the moment fired a third shot which hit in nearly the same entry hole as the second shot but followed a different track and had a different exit hole. Total time 5.86; 3 shots fired; Pass; One miss, One larger than 10mm entry hole with exit holes a little over an inch in diameter.

2nd test; Shooter; Redeyes. Weapon; Glock 19. Ammo; Hornady Critical Duty
6.22; 3 shots fired. Fail. 2 misses, last shot fired resulted in total destruction of coconut on par with the shotgun. There wasn't much left.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 2:48 am 
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Thanks for the update.
Life has been a bit busy for us. Still waiting for the chance to get folks together to shoot the rifles.

Looks like the shotgun results are pretty consistent. About 2/3 of the engagements are successful.

Looks like you blew us away with your handgun marksmanship though.
You actually have about a 75% successful engagement rate with handguns, which is WAY better than what we managed.
Which makes me very curious about how other folks fare.

Would you be up to repeating your test using old pop cans filled with water as your target, at 10 yards? That would make the conditions (other than the arc or swing) the same. If you folks suddenly drop off in accuracy closer to what we experienced - then we will definitely need to repeat our test at the 19' mark and see what happens. If you continue being far more successful than what we recorded, then we will just need more data to see what trend develops.

As for the rifle test, we still need to get out and see how it goes.
Although with the current weather here, the pop cans won't be filled with liquid water very long. We will be tagging chunks of ice instead.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 6:04 am 
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I was surprised at the handgun results myself. It should be noted that Gingerbread Man and I practice with pistols more than we practice with carbines and practice with carbines way more than we practice with shotguns. I have no problem trying this more with beer cans at 10 yards. I just need to buy some beer in cans. I have been buying Sam Adams Octoberfest, which only comes in bottles as far as I know.

Another thing to note; Using a different type of ammo in a pistol than the shooter is used too will cause more misses. Even if the pistol is perfectly zeroed for the new ammo used. I don't shoot Hornady Critical Duty much. I have zeroed my sights to it, but I mostly shoot Wolf which hits 1.5" low and 1.5" left. I should have been more accurate with the Critical Duty. I wasn't. May sound picky, but when trying to hit a small moving target it is a factor.

Yeah, I think me and GB need to add this to the regular lineup of drills we practice. It was fun and challenging.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 6:49 am 
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Redeyes wrote:
I just need to buy some beer in cans.


That's one thing we really don't have any lack of. Well, in the 'can' arena that is.
The kids walk the edge of the highway nearly every day, and come back with around a dozen pop/beer/whatever cans that folks have thrown out their car windows.
:vmad:

At least they are worth a nickel each here in Iowa. So they collect around $10-15 a month.
Now we get to use them for 'research' as well. :clap:

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 6:53 am 
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Redeyes wrote:
It should be noted that Gingerbread Man and I practice with pistols more than we practice with carbines and practice with carbines way more than we practice with shotguns.


We are pretty much the exact opposite. Especially at this time of year.
We fire a bunch of rounds out of shotguns and rifles hunting and target shooting, but only shoot the pistols recreationally.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:06 am 
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Since GB and I have a more suburban/urban lifestyle, of the weapons discussed, the pistol is the most relevant weapon for us in day to day life. I think it is good that we are approaching this from opposite ends. :D

Mostly GB and I practice drills that involve getting accurate hits very quickly. I rarely practice shooting without being on a shot timer.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:19 am 
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That test was odd and filled with swinging coconuts and it's been a longtime since I've shot moving targets. I feel the first run should be thrown out, it was more practice than anything. Once I got the hang of using my pistol, rifle and shotgun on it it was much easier. I shoot pistols and rifles but I rarely shoot shotguns, probably twice in the last 20 years.

I have a shotgun now so that should change. Not an elusive fact but shotguns do need to be aimed and shooting a moving object like in this test and the ambush technique should be used. The affect of the shotgun is pretty brutal but so is it's recoil. That's the biggest detriment to it and reload time is slow. We shot the shotgun with 00 buck @ 21 yds and the pattern was big. Bigger than I'm comfortable with.

The carbine to me was the best one to use one I recalled that at 10 yds the dot should be right on top of the target. 55gr 5.56 FMJ did a good job on dah nut. The greatest impression was the 77gr OTM, it absolutely disintergrated the nut. Everything else just punched holes and broke them up. 77gr vaporized it.

I shoot a bunch of pistol rounds but rarely shoot this CZ75 SA. 9mm 115gr FMJ did a good job of putting holes in the oversized tropical nut. The Hornady Critical Duty had an equally vaporizing affect on the nut.

So, the aways are use hollow points in your pistol to get the full potential from it. Pistols are more than adequate. Shotguns do a good job too, they will work but there are flaws, IMO, with them. Chiefly, recoil, slower reloads and the larger pattern of projectiles. The carbine was the easiest and most powerful tested. With a round other than FMJ it's absolutely brutal. FMJ was no slouch but the thick jacket didn't break up soon enough.

I will not welcome the Zombie Pitbull Coconut Overlords. I will defend Earth with AR-15s and pistols.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:33 am 
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Gingerbread Man wrote:
That test was odd and filled with swinging coconuts and it's been a longtime since I've shot moving targets. I feel the first run should be thrown out, it was more practice than anything. Once I got the hang of using my pistol, rifle and shotgun on it it was much easier. I shoot pistols and rifles but I rarely shoot shotguns, probably twice in the last 20 years.

I have a shotgun now so that should change. Not an elusive fact but shotguns do need to be aimed and shooting a moving object like in this test and the ambush technique should be used. The affect of the shotgun is pretty brutal but so is it's recoil. That's the biggest detriment to it and reload time is slow. We shot the shotgun with 00 buck @ 21 yds and the pattern was big. Bigger than I'm comfortable with.

The carbine to me was the best one to use one I recalled that at 10 yds the dot should be right on top of the target. 55gr 5.56 FMJ did a good job on dah nut. The greatest impression was the 77gr OTM, it absolutely disintergrated the nut. Everything else just punched holes and broke them up. 77gr vaporized it.

I shoot a bunch of pistol rounds but rarely shoot this CZ75 SA. 9mm 115gr FMJ did a good job of putting holes in the oversized tropical nut. The Hornady Critical Duty had an equally vaporizing affect on the nut.

So, the aways are use hollow points in your pistol to get the full potential from it. Pistols are more than adequate. Shotguns do a good job too, they will work but there are flaws, IMO, with them. Chiefly, recoil, slower reloads and the larger pattern of projectiles. The carbine was the easiest and most powerful tested. With a round other than FMJ it's absolutely brutal. FMJ was no slouch but the thick jacket didn't break up soon enough.

I will not welcome the Zombie Pitbull Coconut Overlords. I will defend Earth with AR-15s and pistols.


Next time, we will do the test with water filled cans at 10 yards and a longer par time. I will bring a bunch of cans and we won't be limited by target cost. We can do like 10 tests apiece for everything. Not much remains to be proven in regards to damage to coconuts with rounds that are likely to be used by us. Let me know if you need a few coconuts to test .300 Blackout or something. 8-)

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:37 am 
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Yes, I'll grab some cheap cans. I need to check the rules to see if it's ok to do.

We also should have some gallon jugs. Those are about head sized too.

Yeah, let's grab a couple of nuts and hit them with super/subs Blackout and one or two for 308 FMJ and TAP. I'd love to see the times/results for the battle rifle.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:19 am 
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Redeyes wrote:
More coconut tests with a different shooter and pistols and premium pistol and rifle ammo
Shooter; Gingerbread Man. Weapon; Maverick Over Under 18" HS 12. Ammo; Remington Express 00 2 3/4.

Same setup as before with swinger. The shotgun patterned 4" at 19 feet so we kept the same distance. Par time 5 seconds

Since we were using a OU shotgun we decided to limit the amount of ammo used per test to two shells.

1st test;
2.43, 2 shells fired, Fail, Unbroken coconut

2nd test;
3.22, 2 shells fired, Pass, 1st shell grazed the coconut, 2nd shell passed through the coconut leaving the outer part unbroken, but a big very easy to see through hole in the middle.

3rd test;
.93, 1 shell fired, Pass, Total destruction of coconut.

Pistol test
Shooter; Gingerbread Man. Weapon; CZ 75. Ammo; 9mm fmj. Same conditions as shotgun test, except that pistols were presented to target before the beep went off.

1st test;
4.08, 3 shots fired, Pass, 2 misses, One through and through close to the center.

2nd test;
.80, 1 shot fired, Pass, total destruction of coconut

3rd test;
2.67, 3 shots fired, Pass, 2 misses, last round blew off one half of the coconut.

Pistol test 2
Shooter; Redeyes. Weapon; Glock 19. Ammo; Wolf Military Classic 9mm fmj. Same conditions as previous pistol test.

1st test;
1.19, 1 shot fired, Pass, Through and through.

2nd test;
6.06, 5 shots fired, Fail, Unbroken coconut.

3rd test;
3.47, 2 shots fired, Pass, Blew bottom off coconut.

Carbine test
Shooter; Gingerbread Man. Weapon; AR-15 with 16 inch barrel and 1.5x mini ACOG. Ammo; American Eagle 55gr fmj.

1st test;
6.65, 4 shots fired, Fail, Small entry hole, big exit hole.

2nd test;
2.36, 3 shots fired, Pass, Blew half of coconut off.

3rd test; Note; Test was done with same rifle but different ammo. Ammo; 77gr OTM.
2.29, 2 shots fired, Pass, Total disintegration, Damage to coconut exceeded damage done by shotguns, pistols or rifles with fmj in all previous tests. It was a thing of beauty.

Extra pistol tests;

1st test; Shooter; Gingerbread Man. Weapon 10mm baby Glock. Ammo 10mm fmj.
3.18; Note; shooter passed the test with his second shot, but in the heat of the moment fired a third shot which hit in nearly the same entry hole as the second shot but followed a different track and had a different exit hole. Total time 5.86; 3 shots fired; Pass; One miss, One larger than 10mm entry hole with exit holes a little over an inch in diameter.

2nd test; Shooter; Redeyes. Weapon; Glock 19. Ammo; Hornady Critical Duty
6.22; 3 shots fired. Fail. 2 misses, last shot fired resulted in total destruction of coconut on par with the shotgun. There wasn't much left.




I'm kind of wondering why you considered this a fail? This is typical for FMJ ammo and I would consider it a pass. :?:


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:26 am 
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Gingerbread Man wrote:
Yes, I'll grab some cheap cans. I need to check the rules to see if it's ok to do.

We also should have some gallon jugs. Those are about head sized too.

Yeah, let's grab a couple of nuts and hit them with super/subs Blackout and one or two for 308 FMJ and TAP. I'd love to see the times/results for the battle rifle.




HMMM, how interesting! This sounds like a good candidate for a future match! :clap:


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:40 am 
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Mad Mike wrote:
Redeyes wrote:
More coconut tests with a different shooter and pistols and premium pistol and rifle ammo
Shooter; Gingerbread Man. Weapon; Maverick Over Under 18" HS 12. Ammo; Remington Express 00 2 3/4.

Same setup as before with swinger. The shotgun patterned 4" at 19 feet so we kept the same distance. Par time 5 seconds

Since we were using a OU shotgun we decided to limit the amount of ammo used per test to two shells.

1st test;
2.43, 2 shells fired, Fail, Unbroken coconut

2nd test;
3.22, 2 shells fired, Pass, 1st shell grazed the coconut, 2nd shell passed through the coconut leaving the outer part unbroken, but a big very easy to see through hole in the middle.

3rd test;
.93, 1 shell fired, Pass, Total destruction of coconut.

Pistol test
Shooter; Gingerbread Man. Weapon; CZ 75. Ammo; 9mm fmj. Same conditions as shotgun test, except that pistols were presented to target before the beep went off.

1st test;
4.08, 3 shots fired, Pass, 2 misses, One through and through close to the center.

2nd test;
.80, 1 shot fired, Pass, total destruction of coconut

3rd test;
2.67, 3 shots fired, Pass, 2 misses, last round blew off one half of the coconut.

Pistol test 2
Shooter; Redeyes. Weapon; Glock 19. Ammo; Wolf Military Classic 9mm fmj. Same conditions as previous pistol test.

1st test;
1.19, 1 shot fired, Pass, Through and through.

2nd test;
6.06, 5 shots fired, Fail, Unbroken coconut.

3rd test;
3.47, 2 shots fired, Pass, Blew bottom off coconut.

Carbine test
Shooter; Gingerbread Man. Weapon; AR-15 with 16 inch barrel and 1.5x mini ACOG. Ammo; American Eagle 55gr fmj.

1st test;
6.65, 4 shots fired, Fail, Small entry hole, big exit hole.

2nd test;
2.36, 3 shots fired, Pass, Blew half of coconut off.

3rd test; Note; Test was done with same rifle but different ammo. Ammo; 77gr OTM.
2.29, 2 shots fired, Pass, Total disintegration, Damage to coconut exceeded damage done by shotguns, pistols or rifles with fmj in all previous tests. It was a thing of beauty.

Extra pistol tests;

1st test; Shooter; Gingerbread Man. Weapon 10mm baby Glock. Ammo 10mm fmj.
3.18; Note; shooter passed the test with his second shot, but in the heat of the moment fired a third shot which hit in nearly the same entry hole as the second shot but followed a different track and had a different exit hole. Total time 5.86; 3 shots fired; Pass; One miss, One larger than 10mm entry hole with exit holes a little over an inch in diameter.

2nd test; Shooter; Redeyes. Weapon; Glock 19. Ammo; Hornady Critical Duty
6.22; 3 shots fired. Fail. 2 misses, last shot fired resulted in total destruction of coconut on par with the shotgun. There wasn't much left.




I'm kind of wondering why you considered this a fail? This is typical for FMJ ammo and I would consider it a pass. :?:


The par time was 5 seconds. That is the time I have estimated that it would take for a shambler to get into grapple range. I had to set a time limit. Given unlimited time all tests would be passes. It has nothing to do with the damage inflicted.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:49 am 
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Redeyes wrote:
Mad Mike wrote:
Redeyes wrote:
More coconut tests with a different shooter and pistols and premium pistol and rifle ammo
Shooter; Gingerbread Man. Weapon; Maverick Over Under 18" HS 12. Ammo; Remington Express 00 2 3/4.

Same setup as before with swinger. The shotgun patterned 4" at 19 feet so we kept the same distance. Par time 5 seconds

Since we were using a OU shotgun we decided to limit the amount of ammo used per test to two shells.

1st test;
2.43, 2 shells fired, Fail, Unbroken coconut

2nd test;
3.22, 2 shells fired, Pass, 1st shell grazed the coconut, 2nd shell passed through the coconut leaving the outer part unbroken, but a big very easy to see through hole in the middle.

3rd test;
.93, 1 shell fired, Pass, Total destruction of coconut.

Pistol test
Shooter; Gingerbread Man. Weapon; CZ 75. Ammo; 9mm fmj. Same conditions as shotgun test, except that pistols were presented to target before the beep went off.

1st test;
4.08, 3 shots fired, Pass, 2 misses, One through and through close to the center.

2nd test;
.80, 1 shot fired, Pass, total destruction of coconut

3rd test;
2.67, 3 shots fired, Pass, 2 misses, last round blew off one half of the coconut.

Pistol test 2
Shooter; Redeyes. Weapon; Glock 19. Ammo; Wolf Military Classic 9mm fmj. Same conditions as previous pistol test.

1st test;
1.19, 1 shot fired, Pass, Through and through.

2nd test;
6.06, 5 shots fired, Fail, Unbroken coconut.

3rd test;
3.47, 2 shots fired, Pass, Blew bottom off coconut.

Carbine test
Shooter; Gingerbread Man. Weapon; AR-15 with 16 inch barrel and 1.5x mini ACOG. Ammo; American Eagle 55gr fmj.

1st test;
6.65, 4 shots fired, Fail, Small entry hole, big exit hole.

2nd test;
2.36, 3 shots fired, Pass, Blew half of coconut off.

3rd test; Note; Test was done with same rifle but different ammo. Ammo; 77gr OTM.
2.29, 2 shots fired, Pass, Total disintegration, Damage to coconut exceeded damage done by shotguns, pistols or rifles with fmj in all previous tests. It was a thing of beauty.

Extra pistol tests;

1st test; Shooter; Gingerbread Man. Weapon 10mm baby Glock. Ammo 10mm fmj.
3.18; Note; shooter passed the test with his second shot, but in the heat of the moment fired a third shot which hit in nearly the same entry hole as the second shot but followed a different track and had a different exit hole. Total time 5.86; 3 shots fired; Pass; One miss, One larger than 10mm entry hole with exit holes a little over an inch in diameter.

2nd test; Shooter; Redeyes. Weapon; Glock 19. Ammo; Hornady Critical Duty
6.22; 3 shots fired. Fail. 2 misses, last shot fired resulted in total destruction of coconut on par with the shotgun. There wasn't much left.




I'm kind of wondering why you considered this a fail? This is typical for FMJ ammo and I would consider it a pass. :?:


The par time was 5 seconds. That is the time I have estimated that it would take for a shambler to get into grapple range. I had to set a time limit. Given unlimited time all tests would be passes. It has nothing to do with the damage inflicted.




OK, I see it now! :shock: Thank you.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:49 am 
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Ok, I checked the range rules, we can shoot cans and milk jugs. Stand by for even moar shennanigans. :clownshoes:

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:01 pm 
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Shotty used.

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Pattern.

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Buckshot center punch.
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Mr Coconut wants to know why me? Center shot with 9mm

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I think I figured out some of the difference in our results Redeyes and GB.

It is the 5 seconds.

We only allowed one swing out which lasts about 1.5 + seconds (it isn't 2, but we just have math and a cheap stopwatch...).

The fact we made participants hold the gun aimed down and not at the target may also be a factor. With less than 2 seconds to get the gun up and get a round on target - pretty much everyone agreed it was just luck if you hit.

You may have better luck with your skill levels. Most folks where I live are used to only having a second or so to get a shotgun on a running/flying target. But nobody hunts with pistols on small game or birds so the skills aren't there for most of us.

If you do the cans at 10 yards, could you pleeaaase try a couple with a cutoff of about 2 seconds - and see if your numbers start to resemble ours. That may be the issue.

Or you may blast the cans regardless, and prove that we really do suck with pistols...
:-)

And I agree GB with the 21 yd assessment of 00 buck. So far even our best load/choke combo doesn't fulfill our test criteria past 15 yds. Twenty yards starts to resemble a craps shoot as to whether you get pellets in a target or not.

Can't wait to see your results from your next trip, and I'm glad we have a couple competent pistol shots in this.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:04 pm 
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We started at low ready, wow, two seconds. Challenge accepted, I think we need to time how long it takes to walk, stumble and run 19 feet. I can do that at the gym tomorrow night, I'll post results.

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