Shotguns - The most overrated weapon for zombies

This forum is dedicated to discussions on how to bust up on some zombies.

Moderator: ZS Global Moderators

User avatar
procyon
* * * * *
Posts: 1101
Joined: Sat May 18, 2013 5:56 am
Location: Iowa, USA

Re: Shotguns - The most overrated weapon for zombies

Post by procyon » Mon Mar 09, 2015 4:26 pm

Well, after a bit of experimenting we came up with a .410 load that would pass our test at 15 yards. It took a Winchester 2 1/2" HS hull, Win HS wad, 22 pellets of nickel plated BB's with flour as a buffer, and 14.3 gr of 2400 (same as we load for 3" shells). The chrony says they run about 1320 fps at 10' and they will penetrate 3/4" plywood at 15 yards with an average of 8.4 pellets (84 plts in 10 shots) in the zombie head.

So the 10 y/o girl has her 15 yd 'zombie load'. It actually passes the penetration test at 20 yards - but fails miserably on the area & total energy on target. Oh well, it was fun.

With nicer weather in the forecast and hunting season over, we are hoping to do some of the rifle testing vs swinging pop can this weekend. :-)
... I will show you fear in a handful of dust...

User avatar
procyon
* * * * *
Posts: 1101
Joined: Sat May 18, 2013 5:56 am
Location: Iowa, USA

Re: Shotguns - The most overrated weapon for zombies

Post by procyon » Tue Mar 10, 2015 5:15 pm

20 ga 8 pellet 0 Buck IC
25 yds - 3 shot test
In head 1.3 (4)
8 1/2" x 11" 3 (9)

So at 25 yards, the 8 pellets of 0 Buck failed our test - which suprised no one here. It passed the penetration and total energy on target (just barely) but is nowhere near on wound area. To pass on area it would need to average 2.5 pellets, which would mean doubling the current performance.

But I will say that the first run of loads caught our attention. We didn't put much effort into them as we just looked at them as a novelty. I expect that we will try and see if buffering the shot/adjusting the load could get it close to passing the test at 25 yds. If a 20 ga will put more lead on target than a 12 ga when using the larger pellets - I may have to swap out the shotgun by my wife's side of the bed. I'm on a borrowed phone right now so I can't see the old results I posted, but I am curious how it stacks up against our 12 ga 00 Buck test.

ETA

It looks like this load actually out performs the 12 ga 12 pellet 00 buck load at 25 yards. While only using 2/3rds of the payload and being much more pleasant to shoot. Hmmm...
I will have to add this to the weekend's activities, weather permitting.
... I will show you fear in a handful of dust...

User avatar
NamelessStain
* * * * *
Posts: 2656
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:08 am
Location: Coastal SC

Re: Shotguns - The most overrated weapon for zombies

Post by NamelessStain » Wed Mar 11, 2015 6:18 am

What choke have you been using procyon?
jnathan wrote:Since we lost some posts due to some database work I'll just put this here for posterity.
Q wrote:Buckle up

User avatar
procyon
* * * * *
Posts: 1101
Joined: Sat May 18, 2013 5:56 am
Location: Iowa, USA

Re: Shotguns - The most overrated weapon for zombies

Post by procyon » Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:50 pm

NamelessStain wrote:What choke have you been using procyon?
Depends on what part you are asking about. I suppose I really should go through all the old posts and try to pull together the data I have posted here (if only for my own convenience...).

We have tested patterns with - 12 ga using 00 buck/4 buck/BB using IC and full choke / 20 ga using 0 buck/4 buck/BB using IC and full choke / .410 using 00 & BB using mod and full choke. I know I haven't posted all the results we have as some were just for our own curiousity or done to develop other loads. I have tried to post what I used whenever I give results.

Lets see if I can go off and dig up most of it and bring it together.

Criteria for effective shotgun load
Total energy on target( zombie head of postal target): 200 ft-lb or greater
Total wound area on target (" "): 0.2" sq or greater (about the same as 2 rounds of .38 or 9mm)
All impacts counted for wound area must penetrate 3/4" plywood

The 12 ga IC barrel was 24". (Rem 870, no tubes, field barrel)
The 12 ga Full choke barrel was either 26" (Rem 1187, vent rib, choke tube) or 30" (Rem 1100, vent rib, no tubes, trap barrel) as 2 guns were used.
The 20 ga IC was a a 26" field barrel (Win Mod 12).
The 20 ga Full choke was a 28" barrel ( Bolt action of unknown manufacture - which irritates me to this day...).
The .410 bore Mod choke is an 18 1/2" barrel (Rossi SS).
The .410 bore Full choke is a 24" barrel (Moss 500)


Av pellets in 'head' area per shot (raw number of pellets in 7 targets in the 'head' area) / Av pellets in 8 1/2" x 11" sheet per shot (raw number of pellets in 7 targets in the 8 1/2" x 11" sheet)

Range 25 yards

Handload 12 ga 00 Buck - 9 pellets
Full choke - 0.4 (3) / 1.0 (7) pellets - fail
IC choke - 0.4 (3) / 1.0 (7) pellets - fail

Federal 12 ga 00 Buck - 12 pellets
Full choke - 0.9 (6) / 1.9 (13) pellets - fail
IC choke - 1.1 (8) / 3.0 (21) pellets - fail

Handload 12 ga 4 Buck - 24 pellets
Full choke - 4.7 (33) / 14.4 (101) pellets - pass
IC chole - 1.4 (10) / 4.3 (30) - fail

Handload 20 ga 4 buck - 18 pellets
Full choke - 4.9 (34) / 12.6 (88) - pass
IC choke - 2.9 (20) / 7.0 (49) - fail

3 shot test at 25 yards

20 ga 8 pellet 0 Buck
IC choke - 1.3 (4) / 3 (9) - fail

5 shot test at 15 yards

12 ga Handload 9 pellet 00 Buck - Buffered
IC choke - 4.0 (20) / 8.4 (42) - pass (at 15 yards)


To what has already been posted and gathered up, I can add this one as it is still on my phone.

5 shot tests at 15 yards

.410 bore 24 pellet lead BB
Mod choke - 6.2 (31) / 11.4 (57) - fail
Full choke - 8.4 (42) / 19.8 (99) - fail (pen only*)

.410 bore 22 pellet nickel plated/buffered/14.3gr 2400
Mod choke - 8.2 (41) / 17.6 (87) - pass
Full choke - 12.4 (62) / 20.8 (104) - pass

5 shot test at 20 yards

.410 bore 22 pellet nickel plated/buffered/14.3gr 2400
Mod choke - 5.0 (25) / 11.2 (56) - fail
Full choke - 8.0 (40) / 17.6 (88) - pass**

* we originally had the lead BBs pass at 15 yds, but discovered that the plywood was wet. A second test with a fresh board stopped lead BB's at 15 yards (althougth they left bulges on the back of the board in several places).
** technically, this load is a fail by .002" sq - but we were willing to let that go. If you want to call it a fail, go ahead, I won't mind. But it was REAL close.


To this, I can say we have also shot 20 ga and 12 ga BB loads, although I haven't got the data with me. Both failed with lead BBs at ranges past 10 yards as they would not penetrate the plywood. We have shot a couple rounds of the nickel plated BBs from full choke 12 and 20 ga and both obviously pass the test out to 20 yards, but have not actually compiled any data (mostly for lack of interest). The nickel plated BB's still fail on penetration at 25 yards.

All shells other than the Federal buckshot have been handloads. I would be willing to put up the specific load data if anyone really cared, but I assumed most folks were just interested in what the terminal effects were and not the components.

I should also add (since I'm in mega edit mode) that other folks have good data out there also.
Jeriah has video of his testing and Redeyes has posts of his and GB's testing.
So lots of good information floating around for a ZCT thread. :clownshoes:
... I will show you fear in a handful of dust...

User avatar
NamelessStain
* * * * *
Posts: 2656
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:08 am
Location: Coastal SC

Re: Shotguns - The most overrated weapon for zombies

Post by NamelessStain » Thu Mar 12, 2015 6:23 am

Lots of good data procyon. Thanks.
jnathan wrote:Since we lost some posts due to some database work I'll just put this here for posterity.
Q wrote:Buckle up

User avatar
Mad Mike
* * *
Posts: 517
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:33 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: the walking dead & world war Z

Re: Shotguns - The most overrated weapon for zombies

Post by Mad Mike » Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:37 am

Thanks for the update! :clap: I had "suspected" that a full choke would perform better due to pattern density.... :mrgreen:

User avatar
procyon
* * * * *
Posts: 1101
Joined: Sat May 18, 2013 5:56 am
Location: Iowa, USA

Re: Shotguns - The most overrated weapon for zombies

Post by procyon » Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:55 pm

Ran three rounds through the 20 ga IC using the Buffered 8 pellet 0 Buck.
Was kind of suprised at the results.

Handload 20 ga 0 Buck - 8 pellets, buffered
IC choke - 2.3 (7) / 3.7 (11) pellets - fail


But it was just barely a fail. Penetration and energy were ok, but it needs almost 2.5 for the average # of pellets to pass our standards.
So it's only off by about 0.015" sq. Not much - but it is still about 7% of the amount we decided to use, so we declared it a fail at 25 yards.

And I am not sure what changed and increased the % of pellets on the target by so much. I expected buffering to give me an extra pellet or two, but not this much. Particularly with the low # of pellets elsewhere on the target. We plan to add more rounds to this test as it looks like it may just be an aberation.
But I was running out of time before I needed to get ready for work - so more shooting will just have to wait.


The boy also put together one round without my consent, but we decided to test it anyway when he showed me.
He put a 1 oz Foster slug in a Win F114 wad (it usually fits in a 1 oz wad) and then put three pieces of the 0 buck on top of it - then crimped it.
The powder wasn't exactly my first choice for the load - but was ok.
So a kind of homemade buck and ball. (Guess who has been learning about the Civil War at school.)

When he shot it through the 12 ga IC at 25 yards - the slug hit the paper (but not the zombie head). Which was ok.
Where the 3 pieces of buckshot went - we have no clue. No holes in the paper. None in the 18" wide by 6' tall piece of plywood...
We won't be doing that anymore...
... I will show you fear in a handful of dust...

User avatar
JeeperCreeper
ZS Member
ZS Member
Posts: 2226
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 2:49 am
Favorite Zombie Movies: Twilight... making zombies of our future generations
Location: Yo Momma's House

Re: Shotguns - The most overrated weapon for zombies

Post by JeeperCreeper » Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:48 am

Not meaning to derail anything if this is a serious convo.... but anyone have experience with "multishot" shotgun ammo for HD purposes. I bought it at my Cabela's for $6 for 10, it's Herter's multi-defense, labeled:

"The ultimate knockdown power with a 0.65" round lead ball, backed by six No. 1 buckshot pellets"

It was cheap so I figured it would have to be fun to blast with, regardless of zombie destroying capability. Any thoughts?
They see me trollin', they hatin'.... keyboardin' tryna catch me typin' dirty
Halfapint wrote:There are some exceptions like myself and jeepercreeper.... but we are the forum asshats. We protect our positions with gusto
zero11010 wrote:The girlfriend is a good shot with a 10/22.
Her secondary offense will be nagging.

User avatar
AS556
* * * * *
Posts: 1099
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:31 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: Dawn of the Dead ('04),28 Days Later,Shaun of the Dead,Zombieland
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Shotguns - The most overrated weapon for zombies

Post by AS556 » Fri Mar 13, 2015 1:00 am

Sounds like a good enough load in theory..kinda similar to the PDX1 load with a slug and three 00. I don't really consider Herters defensive grade but I wouldn't think twice about using it assuming your gun likes it.

User avatar
JeeperCreeper
ZS Member
ZS Member
Posts: 2226
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 2:49 am
Favorite Zombie Movies: Twilight... making zombies of our future generations
Location: Yo Momma's House

Re: Shotguns - The most overrated weapon for zombies

Post by JeeperCreeper » Fri Mar 13, 2015 1:14 am

AS556 wrote:Sounds like a good enough load in theory..kinda similar to the PDX1 load with a slug and three 00. I don't really consider Herters defensive grade but I wouldn't think twice about using it assuming your gun likes it.
I mean, it's high brass which is OK. I know it's rebranded cheap stuff... but I might have to blast some crap and see if it's more a gimmick than legit
They see me trollin', they hatin'.... keyboardin' tryna catch me typin' dirty
Halfapint wrote:There are some exceptions like myself and jeepercreeper.... but we are the forum asshats. We protect our positions with gusto
zero11010 wrote:The girlfriend is a good shot with a 10/22.
Her secondary offense will be nagging.

Doctorr Fabulous
ZS Lifetime Member
ZS Lifetime Member
Posts: 12210
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:06 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: Evil Dead, Zombieland, 28 Days/Weeks Later

Re: Shotguns - The most overrated weapon for zombies

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Fri Mar 13, 2015 3:09 am

JeeperCreeper wrote:Not meaning to derail anything if this is a serious convo.... but anyone have experience with "multishot" shotgun ammo for HD purposes. I bought it at my Cabela's for $6 for 10, it's Herter's multi-defense, labeled:

"The ultimate knockdown power with a 0.65" round lead ball, backed by six No. 1 buckshot pellets"

It was cheap so I figured it would have to be fun to blast with, regardless of zombie destroying capability. Any thoughts?
My worry would be the pellets deforming against the bigger ball and resulting in really wonky patterns.
Opinions subject to change in light of new information.
Image
http://i.imgur.com/wG6ZMjE.jpg

User avatar
procyon
* * * * *
Posts: 1101
Joined: Sat May 18, 2013 5:56 am
Location: Iowa, USA

Re: Shotguns - The most overrated weapon for zombies

Post by procyon » Fri Mar 13, 2015 3:49 am

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
JeeperCreeper wrote:Not meaning to derail anything if this is a serious convo.... but anyone have experience with "multishot" shotgun ammo for HD purposes. I bought it at my Cabela's for $6 for 10, it's Herter's multi-defense, labeled:

"The ultimate knockdown power with a 0.65" round lead ball, backed by six No. 1 buckshot pellets"

It was cheap so I figured it would have to be fun to blast with, regardless of zombie destroying capability. Any thoughts?
My worry would be the pellets deforming against the bigger ball and resulting in really wonky patterns.
Yep. This.
Which I am sure is what happened with the 'buck & ball' load the boy put together.
One chunk of lead that kind of went the direction you wanted. And all the rest scattered in who knows what directions.

But if (ok, when) you do test it out JC, share what you find out !
... I will show you fear in a handful of dust...

User avatar
gunsandrockets
* * *
Posts: 472
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:31 am
Favorite Zombie Movies: 1979 Dawn of the Dead
Sean of the Dead
Return of the Living Dead
Zombieland
The Walking Dead
Location: Southern California

Re: Shotguns - The most overrated weapon for zombies

Post by gunsandrockets » Sat Mar 14, 2015 12:54 am

JeeperCreeper wrote:Not meaning to derail anything if this is a serious convo.... but anyone have experience with "multishot" shotgun ammo for HD purposes. I bought it at my Cabela's for $6 for 10, it's Herter's multi-defense, labeled:

"The ultimate knockdown power with a 0.65" round lead ball, backed by six No. 1 buckshot pellets"

It was cheap so I figured it would have to be fun to blast with, regardless of zombie destroying capability. Any thoughts?
Sounds like the Centurion 'buck and ball' load.

http://www.jgsales.com/12ga-ns-centurio ... -1638.html

So far I've haven't heard anything bad about that round. Except for heavy recoil, which kind of goes with the territory for any 12 gauge slug load.

Buck and ball loads are interesting enough in their own right. You should start a brand new thread with that topic over in the firearms section (and not in the zombie combat tactics section).
I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

User avatar
procyon
* * * * *
Posts: 1101
Joined: Sat May 18, 2013 5:56 am
Location: Iowa, USA

Re: Shotguns - The most overrated weapon for zombies

Post by procyon » Fri Apr 03, 2015 5:20 am

Ok, more of a teaser than anything else.
We have gotten out for one short session using a few rifles on the swinging pop cans.
Plan to try and finish up this weekend and then crunch the numbers.

But so far with just two shooters - here is what we have gleaned.
Again, swinging can at 10 yards, approx 2 seconds or less time to engage.

Rifle with 3x reticle scope - after a half dozen attempts each, we gave up without even firing. You would be better off with the handgun or using the rifle in HTH. We couldn't get the can in the scope from a low ready without just trying to shoulder it and aim towards where the can would end its swing. If you actually had anything coming at you in close quarters - a rifle with a standard scope is just a club that can go bang.

Rifle with leaf rear sight/post front - not a heck of a lot better than the handgun. It is about half again better - but we are still talking around a 10% successful engagement rate so far with a semi-atuo .22 and a lot of rounds expended. Not inspiring. Not expecting the last two shooters to improve the %'s either.

What is looking promising is rifles with either peep sights or a red dot. The percent for both is about the same so far. But both of us that have shot so far are rather familiar with appeture sights. The next two shooters may see a difference appear between the sighting systems. But so far it is a large jump in effectiveness compared to standard leaf sights.
So far the rifles have a lower % than the shotguns - but the magazine capacity may make the rifles look good as they will be capable of a nearly equal # of successful engagements on a single mag as a shotgun with a full mag.

So I am hoping for decent weather this weekend to get in some more shooting. :D
... I will show you fear in a handful of dust...

User avatar
Mikeyboy
* * * * *
Posts: 2265
Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 8:00 am

Re: Shotguns - The most overrated weapon for zombies

Post by Mikeyboy » Fri Apr 03, 2015 9:02 am

JeeperCreeper wrote:Not meaning to derail anything if this is a serious convo.... but anyone have experience with "multishot" shotgun ammo for HD purposes. I bought it at my Cabela's for $6 for 10, it's Herter's multi-defense, labeled:

"The ultimate knockdown power with a 0.65" round lead ball, backed by six No. 1 buckshot pellets"

It was cheap so I figured it would have to be fun to blast with, regardless of zombie destroying capability. Any thoughts?
While not the same, here are some pattern and Gel test with Winchester PDX1 load which is a slug and 3 buckshot pellets.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sg44jDO ... 44EA20A1A9

Here is just some pattern test with Centurion load that sound real similar to that Herter multi defense load

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOypcMuq1Ok

User avatar
Mad Mike
* * *
Posts: 517
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:33 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: the walking dead & world war Z

Re: Shotguns - The most overrated weapon for zombies

Post by Mad Mike » Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:09 am

procyon wrote:Ok, more of a teaser than anything else.
We have gotten out for one short session using a few rifles on the swinging pop cans.
Plan to try and finish up this weekend and then crunch the numbers.

But so far with just two shooters - here is what we have gleaned.
Again, swinging can at 10 yards, approx 2 seconds or less time to engage.

Rifle with 3x reticle scope - after a half dozen attempts each, we gave up without even firing. You would be better off with the handgun or using the rifle in HTH. We couldn't get the can in the scope from a low ready without just trying to shoulder it and aim towards where the can would end its swing. If you actually had anything coming at you in close quarters - a rifle with a standard scope is just a club that can go bang.

Rifle with leaf rear sight/post front - not a heck of a lot better than the handgun. It is about half again better - but we are still talking around a 10% successful engagement rate so far with a semi-atuo .22 and a lot of rounds expended. Not inspiring. Not expecting the last two shooters to improve the %'s either.

What is looking promising is rifles with either peep sights or a red dot. The percent for both is about the same so far. But both of us that have shot so far are rather familiar with appeture sights. The next two shooters may see a difference appear between the sighting systems. But so far it is a large jump in effectiveness compared to standard leaf sights.
So far the rifles have a lower % than the shotguns - but the magazine capacity may make the rifles look good as they will be capable of a nearly equal # of successful engagements on a single mag as a shotgun with a full mag.

So I am hoping for decent weather this weekend to get in some more shooting. :D


The only thing worse than this is the same setup at night! The higher the magnification the worse it gets! Tried this a few years ago when my eyes started going bad & a scope became mandatory. My deer hunting buddies told me that the bottom end of a variable powered scope was more important than the upper end - they were right. Lately I have moved to illuminated scopes for dim light, as my eyes steadily got worse. They work for me. :mrgreen:

User avatar
Mad Mike
* * *
Posts: 517
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:33 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: the walking dead & world war Z

Re: Shotguns - The most overrated weapon for zombies

Post by Mad Mike » Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:31 am

Mikeyboy wrote:
JeeperCreeper wrote:Not meaning to derail anything if this is a serious convo.... but anyone have experience with "multishot" shotgun ammo for HD purposes. I bought it at my Cabela's for $6 for 10, it's Herter's multi-defense, labeled:

"The ultimate knockdown power with a 0.65" round lead ball, backed by six No. 1 buckshot pellets"

It was cheap so I figured it would have to be fun to blast with, regardless of zombie destroying capability. Any thoughts?
While not the same, here are some pattern and Gel test with Winchester PDX1 load which is a slug and 3 buckshot pellets.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sg44jDO ... 44EA20A1A9

Here is just some pattern test with Centurion load that sound real similar to that Herter multi defense load

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOypcMuq1Ok


Good info - thanks for posting!

When I test buckshot (or even bird shot) I only fire one round per target; I use as many targets as required. That way I can see how consistent the load is; several shots stacked on top of each other will likely conceal this.

Has anyone else noticed this? :?

User avatar
Jeriah
ZS Lifetime Member
ZS Lifetime Member
Posts: 18722
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:12 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: Original Night of the Living Dead, Dawn of the Dead 04, and 28 Days Later are my top three, in that order.
Location: Chicago, IL
Contact:

Re: Shotguns - The most overrated weapon for zombies

Post by Jeriah » Wed Apr 15, 2015 7:55 pm

Updates:

VEPR12 now has a cheap red dot and a white light on it, as well as an Ares Armor sling. I have shot it (before it had these accessories) and it was fun. Haven't done any coconut testing on it, but I'll say this: a magazine-fed semi-auto seems to do everything a pump shotgun does, better. EXCEPT, to cycle reliably, the Vepr12 needs at least 3-dram equivalent loads. I looked this up on the Saiga 12 forums, and that's what they said. I bought a bunch of different loads, and lo and behold, they were right: buck and slug cycled 100%. Birdshot over 3 dram equivalent cycled 100%. Birdshot under 3 drams only cycled about 80% of the time (1 failure per 5 round mag).

I'll get back out there and do some Vepr 12 coconut tests, but lately I've been doing more pistol and bolt action rifle work, so...it may be a while.
Image

Post Reply

Return to “Zombie Combat Tactics”