The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by woodsghost » Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:07 pm

Confucius wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:25 pm
woodsghost wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:26 pm
Confucius wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:07 am
Langenator wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 9:15 pm


Well, there was that time that Sen. Charles Sumner was beaten near to death with a cane on the floor of the Senate, by a member of the House of Representatives.

Citizens of the House member's district and home state sent him more canes.

I fear the country has already edged into 'Bleeding Kansas' territory.
Or Gabby Giffords in 2011, oh, and that time in 1954 where five representatives were shot, or Bobby Kennedy in 1968...
I was thinking of this all day so far. And I was curious about some of the ways your points could be taken.

When you posted these examples, were you thinking "therefore the subject of the original article got what was coming to him and he/his family deserve to be in fear," or were you thinking "no US leader, regardless of affiliation, should be subjected to violence." Or was there another thought or point that I missed?

Thanks for the clarification!
Bit of "no US leader, regardless of affiliation, should be subjected to violence." bit of "this isn't super unique in American history"
Good points. I strongly agree with both. I appreciate your thoughts too.
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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by M813 » Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:14 am

woodsghost wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:26 pm

I was thinking of this all day so far. And I was curious about some of the ways your points could be taken.

When you posted these examples, were you thinking "therefore the subject of the original article got what was coming to him and he/his family deserve to be in fear," or were you thinking "no US leader, regardless of affiliation, should be subjected to violence." Or was there another thought or point that I missed?

Thanks for the clarification!
I'm firmly in the category of "no duly elected official, regardless of affiliation should be subjected to violence."

The way I view it is- If an angry mob in DC attacks an elected representative from Kentucky (for example), that is essentially an assault on Kentucky voters by residents of DC and they should be concerned.

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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by Langenator » Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:43 am

12_Gauge_Chimp wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 4:36 pm
NT2C wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:43 pm
MPMalloy wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:59 am
Here's something that could kick things off:

Personally, I feel officers should be issued mirrors and start teaching these fools that lasers are two-way.

(and someone needs to create a smart munition that homes on laser beams and zaps it)
If I was a smarter man, I'd do something like that. But as it stands, I can barely figure out the functions on a smartphone let alone build something like a laser zapping munition.

Perhaps the PDs could rig up some sort of laser jamming signal for these situations.
AFAIK, the only way to 'jam' a laser is to place something solid between the laser and its target.

I'm not sure how deep the story goes into it (I prefer the written word to videos and vlogs; always have, always will), but I recall from Sen. Cruz's hearings a month or so ago, something around 40% of injuries to cops have been vision loss due to laser attacks. That vision loss is usually permanent, and will probably prevent those officers from being able to return to their jobs, ever.

Which leads to the legalities of the use of deadly force. In most states, the law says that the use of deadly force is authorized to prevent death or serious bodily injury. Any permanent vision loss would fall into the category of "serious bodily injury" according to the law. So the police would be well within the bounds of the law to SHOOT anyone shining lasers at them, providing they can make positive ID and have a clear shot that doesn't endanger persons not engaging in said conduct.

The way I see it, using the lasers is Insurgency 101: getting the .gov to "overreact" to provocations, or in this case, do something that would be perceived by the general public as overreacting. (Aided and abetted by a national media that is mostly on the same ideological side as the rioters/insurgents.) Lasers are almost invisible on video, especially if you get the angles right, so on video it would look like the police are just opening fire into a crowd, even if it's a sniper taking a very precise shot at a positively identified target. And the guy with the laser will for sure have buddies who will make that laser disappear as the crowd scatters, to reinforce the image of the police simply shooting people.

Detection systems would have to be placed on the target(s) to work, and most, if not all, of what exists in that realm (such as the systems now being mounted on M1 tanks) are way to heavy for that.

I'm not sure why police agencies in the U.S. don't employ water cannons, with or without dye, any more. I strongly suspect it's because of the imagery of water cannons being used to break up demonstrations during the Civil Rights era. Using water cannons is thus widely viewed in this country as 'excessive force,' even though it's no such thing, and would be very effective in the current situations.
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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by raptor2 » Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:49 pm

M813 wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:14 am

I'm firmly in the category of "no duly elected official, regardless of affiliation should be subjected to violence."

The way I view it is- If an angry mob in DC attacks an elected representative from Kentucky (for example), that is essentially an assault on Kentucky voters by residents of DC and they should be concerned.
I would agree and even go farther and say that violence committed against a duly elected office holder to a national office is also an attack on the nation. It it not the person who should be protected ... I am all for accountability ... but it is the office that be protected.

BTW I also think that should apply anyone who is not engaged in unlawful and or violent behavior. Full stop.
Peaceful protest is fine in my book. If you disagree with the position...tough shit! BTW my definition does not include arson, assault, trespassing, criminal damage or any type of damage.

Disagreement with a position does not give anyone liberty to commit physical violence or even physically interact in an unwanted way...No means NO!
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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by MPMalloy » Wed Sep 02, 2020 3:38 pm

raptor2 wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:49 pm
No means NO!
^^^^THIS^^^^

+infinity.....and Beyond!

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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by absinthe beginner » Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:06 pm

Militia members face gun charges, alleged to have come to Kenosha 'to pick people off'

https://www.foxnews.com/us/militia-memb ... es-kenosha

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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by woodsghost » Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:51 pm

absinthe beginner wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:06 pm
Militia members face gun charges, alleged to have come to Kenosha 'to pick people off'

https://www.foxnews.com/us/militia-memb ... es-kenosha
Rules and laws apply differently for different groups.

"Rules for you don't apply to me." Or "rules for thee but not for me."
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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by tony d tiger » Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:57 pm

woodsghost wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:51 pm
absinthe beginner wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:06 pm
Militia members face gun charges, alleged to have come to Kenosha 'to pick people off'

https://www.foxnews.com/us/militia-memb ... es-kenosha
Rules and laws apply differently for different groups.

"Rules for you don't apply to me." Or "rules for thee but not for me."
"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." :wink:
George Orwell, Animal Farm
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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by tony d tiger » Sat Sep 05, 2020 12:03 am

absinthe beginner wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:06 pm
Militia members face gun charges, alleged to have come to Kenosha 'to pick people off'

https://www.foxnews.com/us/militia-memb ... es-kenosha
Sounds like they were well armed. Dangerous times...
"During a search of their hotel room, authorities recovered body armor, tactical gear, a homemade silencer, an AR-15 rifle, a Mossberg 500 AB 12-Gauge shotgun, two handguns, a drone, a knife and ammunition, among other items."
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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by quazi » Sat Sep 05, 2020 3:26 am

I wonder if something along the lines of Google Cardboard with old phones could be used as a quick defense against laser attacks? Not quick in the sense of something to be assembled on site, but quick in the sense that it is easily available existing tech that would be relatively inexpensive.

I know lasers were used by the protesters in Hong Kong, but I'm not sure what measures (if any) the Chinese government took to counter them.

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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by Langenator » Sat Sep 05, 2020 5:51 am

quazi wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 3:26 am
I wonder if something along the lines of Google Cardboard with old phones could be used as a quick defense against laser attacks? Not quick in the sense of something to be assembled on site, but quick in the sense that it is easily available existing tech that would be relatively inexpensive.

I know lasers were used by the protesters in Hong Kong, but I'm not sure what measures (if any) the Chinese government took to counter them.
Lasers are being used by the rioters here to target cops. At the time of Sen. Cruz's hearings a few weeks ago, about 40% of the injuries to cops in the riots were vision loss due to laser attack. Best defense is probably anti-laser eye pro. Like these: https://smile.amazon.com/Protection-Gog ... GTHD4R00NB

FWIW, the U.S. is signatory to the international treaty banning the use of lasers on the battlefield to blind. So, if the .gov were to declare the rioters to be insurgents at war with the government, it could try anyone caught using lasers that way as a war criminal.
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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by absinthe beginner » Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:48 am

America in Crisis: A Closer Look at a Deeply Polarized Nation

https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2020 ... f=5CqwjcI3

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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by woodsghost » Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:01 am

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aBNr1mox9cA

This is not a very political video, and is only about 53 seconds long, but I really liked hearing what this guy had to say about defending his neighborhood. Which at quick glance looked like a trailer park. And I think he was wearing laser glasses. So it was pretty neat listening to and watching what seems like a down to earth, level headed guy in a down to earth neighborhood.
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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by Johan » Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:43 am

I am surprised no one seems to be talking about the possibillity (Very strong likelyhood) that the protests and riots are being actively encuraged
by Russia who are really good at "influence operations"...


They (and putin) have a vested interest in making USA as weak as possible, and if you are to busy with internal problems to focus on the rest of the world, all the better...

So I would expect them to stir up trouble both by using the internet "troll factories" in Russia to encourage conflict playing both sides against each other and initiate protests other trouble (rioting) thru social media or encourage "useful idiots" (who likely wouldn't realise who their internet/ social media friends are) to do so...


(It also seems likely that Russia will also try to influence the US election, and from what I have read it seems more than likely they already did it before)


Russia has been caught trying to influence the elections in several Eu countries.

And also in the elektion for the EU-parliment the Russian "troll factories" were really active, not so much to benefit specific parties but to create strife between countrys and between citizens..
And also creating insecurity,
for example by spreading desinformation and conspiracy theories about Corona etc. (and generally "stirring up trouble" and protests.)

Examples of Russian desinfomation narratives from a EU Website:

https://euvsdisinfo.eu

(Lots of interesting stuff :vmad: )


I haven't read the whole thread, but I've been reading it from time to time..
And haven't seen anything about influence operations...

The old "Whom will it benefit" Question is always useful to ask..

Best of luck over there!
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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by raptor2 » Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:46 am

I have seen this in NOLA first hand after a minor but still violent altercation at the clerk of court's office near my office. About a dozen +/- of the 40 or so protesters got on the Tulane University shuttle bus to go back to campus. They no doubt see no irony in this.

https://nypost.com/2020/09/05/wealthy-n ... m-rampage/

Johan wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:43 am
I am surprised no one seems to be talking about the possibillity (Very strong likelyhood) that the protests and riots are being actively encuraged
by Russia who are really good at "influence operations"...


They (and putin) have a vested interest in making USA as weak as possible, and if you are to busy with internal problems to focus on the rest of the world, all the better...

That is because on this forum we do not allow politics and therefore stick to the what, when & where; while not discussing the who and why if they are political.

There are actually several 3rd party countries that benefit from the US having problems. The list is actually quite long and even includes allies some though it is unlikely that allies would actively engage in such disruptions...but it would not preclude some individual foreign nationals with a vested financial interest in chaos from driving division for financial gain.
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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by Langenator » Mon Sep 07, 2020 11:14 am

raptor2 wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:46 am
Johan wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:43 am
I am surprised no one seems to be talking about the possibillity (Very strong likelyhood) that the protests and riots are being actively encuraged
by Russia who are really good at "influence operations"...


They (and putin) have a vested interest in making USA as weak as possible, and if you are to busy with internal problems to focus on the rest of the world, all the better...

That is because on this forum we do not allow politics and therefore stick to the what, when & where; while not discussing the who and to why if they are political.

There are actually several 3rd party countries that benefit from the US having problems. The list is actually quite long and even includes allies some though it is unlikely that allies would actively engage in such disruptions...but it would not preclude some individual foreign nationals with a vested financial interest in chaos from driving division for financial gain.
Is it still political if we KNOW it's happening? That's why the ChiCom consulate in Houston was shut down. (Or at least one of the reasons.) Chinese Consulate in Houston Intervened in US Political Movement

The ChiComs, Russia, and Iran would be the major beneficiaries of internal disorder in the U.S.. We know the ChiComs are stirring things up, and it would stand to reason the other two are as well, in whatever ways their available resources and assets allow.

Fomenting internal disorder in a nation's adversaries is a technique that goes back probably to the beginnings of civilization. See the insertion of Lenin into Russia in 1917 for a recent example. There are examples of one power supporting a contender to the throne in a rival state throughout history. Of course, this often has spillover effects - see the numerous examples in European history of the "War of the <insert country here> Succession."
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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by woodsghost » Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:02 pm

Johan wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:43 am
I am surprised no one seems to be talking about the possibillity (Very strong likelyhood) that the protests and riots are being actively encuraged
by Russia who are really good at "influence operations"...

......

(It also seems likely that Russia will also try to influence the US election, and from what I have read it seems more than likely they already did it before)


Russia has been caught trying to influence the elections in several Eu countries.

.....

The old "Whom will it benefit" Question is always useful to ask..

Best of luck over there!
Johan
First, the question of "who benefits" is important and there are countries which will benefit FAR more than Russia if the US election swings one way rather than the other.

Second, Russian doesn't exactly have a monopoly on "trying to interfere with elections."

Third, honestly, I have followed a lot of European politics and while I suspect Russia IS attempting to interfere in places, I have noticed a number of European politicians benefit from falsely balming Russia for interference. The key area I have seen is "are people organically angry and organically organizing or is there outside interference." By saying "it is Russian interference" powerful people can attempt to marginalize groups they want to shut out of power and want other people to ignore. So this "interference" game can actually get pretty deep.

Forth, what difference does it make from a prepping standpoint if it is China, Iran, Russia, North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela, or even Germany or France organizing and driving this? How does "who is driving this" change anything? And there have to be powerful people in the US driving it all as well. In fact, the troubles we experience might all be driven by internal actors. There are a lot of people in the US who feel they stand to benefit from the violence. Some have actually explicitly said so in interviews on TV.

Lastly, there are foreign actors who benefit from falsely attributing interference to Russia. So while I fully believe Russia is attempting interference, I think they are getting far more credit than they deserve and there are other foreign actors as well as domestic actors who are doing as much or more than Russia can accomplish.
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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by NT2C » Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:00 pm

Gentlemen, this thread is skirting dangerous waters with the current bit of discussion. I would remind you all that the charts say, "HERE BE DRAGONS" just a tiny bit further in. Proceed at risk of your access to this area.
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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by tony d tiger » Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:16 pm

"What difference does it make from a prepping standpoint who is organizing and driving this? How does "who is driving this" change anything?"

Salient point. Depends on what you're prepping for. If, like most of CONUS, :awesome: (pun!) Then it makes no difference. Personally, I am only worried about a temporary interruption of services - maybe, three months, tops. Additionally, I do not foresee any situation greater than a regional natural disaster.

So in regards to foreign interference, nationwide division and criminal activities - SNAFU. Watch your six, cultivate relationships, nurture and support family and friends. It's all good.
Be smart, don't over-react. :mrgreen:
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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by MPMalloy » Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:58 pm

While doing intel on OPFOR:

From CrimethInc.: A Demonstrator’s Guide to Helmets

From CrimethInc.: A Demonstrator’s Guide to Gas Masks and Goggles

I found these articles to be well researched, comprehensive, and concise. They changed my opinion of such groups.

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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by Blast » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:34 am

Step 1. Call for the police to be defunded.
Step 2. Demand to know why police aren't stopping crime.
Step 3. ???
Step 4. Civil War
With violent crime on the rise in Mpls., City Council asks: Where are the police?

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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by Blast » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:36 am

Blast wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:34 am
Step 1. Call for the police to be defunded.
Step 2. Demand to know why police aren't stopping crime.
Step 3. ???
Step 4. Civil War
With violent crime on the rise in Mpls., City Council asks: Where are the police?
Who had the quote along the lines of a community will either be policed from inside or from the outside?

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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by raptor2 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:42 am

MPMalloy wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:58 pm
While doing intel on OPFOR:

From CrimethInc.: A Demonstrator’s Guide to Helmets

From CrimethInc.: A Demonstrator’s Guide to Gas Masks and Goggles

I found these articles to be well researched, comprehensive, and concise. They changed my opinion of such groups.
Of course these groups like this one is well funded. Notice the mailing address on the web site.
Mail:
CrimethInc. Far East
PO Box 4671
Salem OR, 97302

They are in Oregon but they list their group as being in the "far east"....while on the west coast of the US.
What geographic region is so far westward of Oregon that it would call Oregon the Far East?
Hmmm...Also you will note the equipment reviews frequently discuss low cost, high quality items made in that same country.


IMO there is no doubt that 3rd party nations are assisting with organization, resources and generally assisting violent people to commit violence.

We are not allowed to discuss here the who and why but that is self evident and this needs little discussion. Please do stick to only what, where and when aspect of this.


BTW A simple google search of the po box will show up a name. That may be correct, intentional or simply disinformation.


They use this address for distribution.

Active Distribution,
BM ACTIVE,
London,
WC1N 3XX,
England

A quick search of this address shows these using the distribution address
https://slingshotcollective.org/the-organizer/
https://www.doordie.org.uk/issues/issue ... tacts.html


BTW a handy dandy "yellow pages" albeit somewhat dated of anarchist groups also uses this address.
Note the many email address with ".edu" suffix.
http://www.spunk.org/library/biblio/sp001653/ayp1.html
Duco Ergo Sum


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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by SCBrian » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:50 pm

It's been a long day, so my tank of common sense and ballistics is near empty. But why does the helmet pictured in the article look like the device is exiting and not entering?
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