COVID-19 Chat Thread

[raptor2]

Very interesting. I think I'll stick with Listerine, because it's still highly efficacious and I already have a massive bottle of it.

Not to sound like a P&G commercial but Listerine has proven oral health benefits that make it worthwhile to use daily.
https://www.listerine.com/total-care-campaign

[boskone]

Very interesting. I think I'll stick with Listerine, because it's still highly efficacious and I already have a massive bottle of it.

Not to sound like a P&G commercial but Listerine has proven oral health benefits that make it worthwhile to use daily.
https://www.listerine.com/total-care-campaign

That's one reason I use it twice a day, or rather the store-brand knockoff with the exact same active ingredient, even outside of COVID-19. That, and brushing morning and evening.

It's a cheap enough investment in avoiding future--and potentially more expensive--problems.

[CrossCut]

Very interesting. I think I'll stick with Listerine, because it's still highly efficacious and I already have a massive bottle of it.

Not to sound like a P&G commercial but Listerine has proven oral health benefits that make it worthwhile to use daily.
https://www.listerine.com/total-care-campaign

That's one reason I use it twice a day, or rather the store-brand knockoff with the exact same active ingredient, even outside of COVID-19. That, and brushing morning and evening.

It's a cheap enough investment in avoiding future--and potentially more expensive--problems.

A possible explanation why Listerine may be effective against the (enveloped) SARS-CoV-2 virus, from The antiviral spectrum of Listerine antiseptic

This work confirms the antiviral effectiveness of Listerine against herpes simplex virus types 1 and 28 and extends the range of effectiveness to another enveloped virus, influenza.

The nonenveloped viruses, rotavirus and adenovirus, appear to be resistant to the effects of Listerine; this resistance was seen even after 5 minutes of exposure.

Personally, I'm sticking with PVP-I added to Listerine for the mouthwash/gargle, and PVP-I in distilled water in an atomizer spray bottle for nasal use. The results from this study,
SARS-CoV-2 Reverse Genetics Reveals a Variable Infection Gradient in the Respiratory Tract,
appears to show the nasal cavity as the likely initial site and breeding ground in the first days of infection:

These findings highlight the nasal susceptibility to SARS-CoV-2 with likely subsequent aspiration-mediated virus seeding to the lung in SARS-CoV-2 pathogenesis.

And part of their conclusion:

Although speculative, if the nasal cavity is the initial site mediating seeding of the lung via aspiration, these studies argue for the widespread use of masks to prevent aerosol, large droplet, and/or mechanical exposure to the nasal passages. Complementary therapeutic strategies that reduce viral titer in the nose early in the disease, e.g., nasal lavages, topical antivirals, or immune modulation, might be beneficial.

But even if PVP-I (or Listerine) is later proven ineffective against COVID, it's a low cost and low risk intervention with few contraindications. A decision analysis chart I pulled from a different article (that I can't locate at the moment):

[MPMalloy]

From NPR: 'Love And Solidarity': Amid Coronavirus, Mutual Aid Groups Resurge In New York City

Wikipedia: Mutual aid (organization theory)

Wikipedia: Voluntary association

These 'concepts' are simply just community. That's all it is. Your community is those who are around you. Your neighbors. The people around your block/street. Friends. Family.

[CrossCut]

In case anyone was wondering Listerine Cool Mint®, in a simulated snot suspension, appears to be just as effective as original Listerine.

Virucidal efficacy of different oral rinses against SARS-CoV-2

With multiple studies showing it's spread by individuals in the initial pre-symptomatic/asymptomatic stage, I'm smh in disbelief why this isn't getting any attention from the CDC, NIH, WHO, or the media. If you're not shedding it you're not spreading it.

[raptor2]

In case anyone was wondering Listerine Cool Mint®, in a simulated snot suspension, appears to be just as effective as original Listerine.

Virucidal efficacy of different oral rinses against SARS-CoV-2

With multiple studies showing it's spread by individuals in the initial pre-symptomatic/asymptomatic stage, I'm smh in disbelief why this isn't getting any attention from the CDC, NIH, WHO, or the media. If you're not shedding it you're not spreading it.

That is good data.

Why you ask?
I am not sure but the cynic in me notes that COVID sure seems to an illness that no one really wants it cured or an effective treatment found before 2021.

[aikorob]

In case anyone was wondering Listerine Cool Mint®, in a simulated snot suspension, appears to be just as effective as original Listerine.

Virucidal efficacy of different oral rinses against SARS-CoV-2

With multiple studies showing it's spread by individuals in the initial pre-symptomatic/asymptomatic stage, I'm smh in disbelief why this isn't getting any attention from the CDC, NIH, WHO, or the media. If you're not shedding it you're not spreading it.

That is good data.

Why you ask?
I am not sure but the cynic in me notes that COVID sure seems to an illness that no one really wants it cured or an effective treatment found before 2021. the election

at the risk of being political.............FTFY
you ain't the only one-----several acquaintances have mentioned similar thoughts

[lurkshere]

Why you ask?
I am not sure but the cynic in me notes that COVID sure seems to an illness that no one really wants it cured or an effective treatment found before 2021. the election

Fortunately the rest of the world does want it cured.

[MPMalloy]

File under

From NPR: Americans Go Home: Canadians Track U.S. Boaters Sneaking Across The Border

..that petri dish that is America...

[MPMalloy]

The whole of Melbourne is under lockdown. 5+ million people.

[boskone]

There are two vaccines in phase III trials: one in the UK with AstraZeneca and Oxford, one in the US between Moderna and the NIH. Both have promising phase I-II results, though with some muted side-effects of the disease (as with, I believe, flu vaccines).

There's a trial in phase II in China.

There's some testing going on as well with non-specific vaccines, for tuberculosis and I think MMR, but no results I know of yet.

But even with crash testing, it'll be a year or so before vaccines are released for general use. It'd kinda suck to find out there's some severe side effect, so I suppose that's to be expected. However, at least Moderna (and I'd be surprised if not AstraZeneca) are apparently already ramping up production so it can go into general deployment as soon as approved.

Regarding the case surge, amusingly no-one really knows what effect the protests and riots have had. Certainly, participants are probably more likely to be exposed...but at the same time they were causing a lot of other people to stay home.

[woodsghost]

Regarding the case surge, amusingly no-one really knows what effect the protests and riots have had. Certainly, participants are probably more likely to be exposed...but at the same time they were causing a lot of other people to stay home.

This is what has some people questioning how much "science" is going on and how much "politics" is going on.

I've run into some interesting medical information here in Texas and since it is purely anecdotal, I'm not posting it, but I am not super confident in the numbers of positive/negative numbers anymore. I suspect the number of positive cases is inflated, but time will tell.

[MPMalloy]

The whole of Melbourne is under lockdown. 5+ million people.

CORRECTION: Melbourne is under lockdown again.

[MPMalloy]

WTF is this???

[boskone]

WTF is this???

Extreme optimism.

[NT2C]

WTF is this???

"beepBOOPbeee! We're sorry. The number you have reached, NINE ONE ONE is no longer in service. Please hang up."

[manacheck]

WTF is this???

Extreme optimism.

Oddly, just the fact that the mere concept of this extreme optimism exists gave me a brief respite from thinking every human is actually a monster.

I mean, people can come down on this and say it'll never work. Talking down about optimistic ideas is always easier than doing something to support them.

But on the other hand... even if optimism "won't work", what's happening now already is presently being proven that it doesn't work either. Realistically, there's a number of problems front and center about the current situation with LEOs in several specifics: unlawful behaviors (including discriminatory practices that result in damage, excessive use of force that results in community outrage), budget crises, insufficient mental health care... these are only a few.

regardless whether the issue being fixed through an optimistic method is something people reading news stories on the internet think is plausible or not, just the fact that it's looking to inspire a positive mindset rather than present yet another doom and gloom scenario where "things will never improve and the just world needs to burn" is being shoved down my throat in advance of the election, made it worth the click.

Someone who made that story said to themselves, "hey, what if things could be good, what would that look like? Let's try and see if it'd get any positive traction" and "hey, we actually kind of do need police, but this is a heated issue so... what if we just called them something else, and gave them the support the current police aren't getting in education and monetary compensation, and told them if they were jerks we'd fire them and what is we were able to actually follow through with that?" If the world is going to go to shit anyways it's so much better to try an alternative regardless if the disenchanted masses just expect everything to fail now. At least it'll give people like me a brief moment to think, "huh, maybe not everybody is a piece of shit, wouldn't it be nice if the world didn't suck so much?"

and now cue the peanut gallery to tell me why I'm wrong and why idealism and positive optimism is going to doom us more than politics.

[woodsghost]

Oddly, just the fact that the mere concept of this extreme optimism exists gave me a brief respite from thinking every human is actually a monster.

I mean, people can come down on this and say it'll never work. Talking down about optimistic ideas is always easier than doing something to support them.

I'm glad you appreciate what is happening. Personally, I believe in local communities having the option to make laws and "forces", which all must operate under rule of law, to meet community needs and standards. Which is why I'm pretty ok with Alabama looking different (legally and culturally) from Oregon (random examples). I'm a big believer in having room for diversity, but I have no tolorance for people forcing their views and perspectives on me.

I'm all for Seattle experimenting with a new force. If they can show me how gender sensitivity resolves a domestic violence incident where one partner beats the shit out of the other, then shoves them out of a moving vehicle onto a highway and proceeds to try to repeatedly run the victim over (this is a teaser, not the full story) and they show me they have effectively resolved these issues for the last 10 years, I'll be VERY willing to listen and learn. I'm very open to learning new things, but they have to be proven with a decade or more of experience.

If you want to share more of your experiences and thoughts, feel free to shoot me a PM.

[Confucius]

Am I missing something, or is this entirely unrelated to COVID?

[manacheck]

Oddly, just the fact that the mere concept of this extreme optimism exists gave me a brief respite from thinking every human is actually a monster.

I mean, people can come down on this and say it'll never work. Talking down about optimistic ideas is always easier than doing something to support them.

I'm all for Seattle experimenting with a new force. If they can show me how gender sensitivity resolves a domestic violence incident where one partner beats the shit out of the other

I think the biggest issue is just being glossed over by slapping "gender sensitivity" or "racial sensitivity" labels over it. I can't argue with the labels themselves, but they are kind of like seeing the trees and overlooking the forest.

The fact is that during this time period with everyone ramped way up in stress/insecurity from this pandemic- and its many, far-reaching, worldwide, and sometimes surprisingly unanticipated effects- means that people affected by this emergency (i.e. the global community) are not able to use their regular level of problem-solving skills.

Under pre-COVID conditions, the ocassional outcry to "defund police!!" was mostly met by rational rebuttals of "um, no, that's a bad idea actually, here's an example of places that have done that" as to why we need police and what happens in areas without law enforcement. (Or without sufficient law enforcement.) Rather than the present hot rheteric of, "oh, okay, yes, let's do that" following on the heels of rioting news.

Dealing with or prepping for situations like that- defunded police zones- are a backbone of why this forum is here. Of course it's enmeshed in with the whole COVID situation. They can't easily be separated since both are defining issues of the present time period and both are playing against and using the other to escalate tensions.

Crimes, as far as reality goes, may sometimes use gender (isn't gender affirmation just not being a jerk about if someone has that particular health problem? I'm reading it as essentially just not being a bully if for instance a girl got born with some spectrum of messed up endcrinology leaving her with dude parts to whatever extent, which is horrifying but I mean, it happens) as an excuse, but that's all it is: an excuse. Physically attacking someone "because" they're female/male/black/an immigrant/a child/elderly/handicapped is an excuse the same as beating them for being born with cleft palet or being born trans or gay. In other words, an excuse to get away with a crime. The education part people want available to law enforcement, I expect, less about sensitivity and more about the fact that encouraging legal discrimination equals people being jerks, whether intentionally or by pure negligent ignorance. Why does this matter? Because of us not wanting to be in situations where violence is excused. Prepping for things that are happening and avoiding them if they can't realistically be solved in the moment.

My personal beliefs in the 14th amendment of every citizen being an equal person leads me to ask myself: when I'm not sure if something is suffering from cignitive distortion, is to ask myself whether any crime being committed would have a pardon if the victim fell into a different grouping of (insert gender, race, faith, political view, favourite pokemon)... if the answer is yes, then something's not right with that. Why is that important? Because it affects how we can expect to react to issues and what problems those issues will create for us, personally. If I'm in an area where people are not making good judgements about things, then that should be part of my situational awareness.

For me, if an area is "decrying" police and the result (or maybe simultaneously instead of resulting from) is increased rioting, violence, and damages to the prople and properties of the area, and if the news reports that the police force in that area will have funding cut, with the intention that they can no longer do their job, the result of that is fewer police officers doing law enforcement in that area.

So, that's why, someone coming up with ideas, especially positive ones, of how to circumvent the crash and burning of that unenviable situation in the form of "hey, let's replace what was removed and that we actually kind of need, with something that at least might limit some damage for a while" sounds like the kind of positive prepper mentality of people who haven't ever been through this kind of thing trying to find solutions. I like that. It's like community watch, sure, and there are a lot of things that could go wrong. A lot of things are already going wrong, and sometimes trying to limit damages doesn't work the way we want, but it's a much better, more positive mindset to think that maybe there is something you could do than to think everything is hopeless and trying is pointless.

If I want to talk politics I'd definitely PM you. You always seems to have great views to offer. The politics side itself always just gets me frustrated and angry, so I'd rather put my energies somewhere that actually can help me feel like I have even a little bit of a grip on my own circumstances and what actions can either benefit or derail my safety.

I guess it is hard to discuss issues that are being politicized so heavily nonpolitically, but the point I'm making is there are unsafe situations in regards to law enforcement agents, including lack thereof. There's plenty of doom and gloom and people getting way too riled up as police officers are enforcing mask laws. Blame and anger and fear do not a happy country make. It's nice seeing an article with some positivity about "hey, maybe we should try something better" rather than just all-out calls for warfare.

When things go south like with COVID, people don't always want common sense, they are frustrated and want someone to blame.

This is my country and what happens in it affects me directly as a citizen.

If anyone thinks what's going on with all that doesn't belong in this thread. absolutely please feel free to relocate it to a more appropriate location, and I will discontinue my opinions on things related to topics that I feel are related but that are not strictly about COVID itself as a disease. Making life more difficult for mods is not what I come here for.

[raptor2]

Am I missing something, or is this entirely unrelated to COVID?

This is a chat thread but the chat topic is supposed to be Covid related. Thank You.

[CG]

I know someone who was tested, got a negative result, and was told there's a 30% chance it's a false negative.

Anybody finding good numbers on the actual accuracy of the rapid testing?

[boskone]

I know someone who was tested, got a negative result, and was told there's a 30% chance it's a false negative.

Anybody finding good numbers on the actual accuracy of the rapid testing?

Very, if done right, but doing it right is hard.

The swabs have to be jammed way on up the nose or down the throat, which most people find--to use the term doctors and such seem to prefer--"uncomfortable". Self-administered swabs are therefore considerably less reliable because people don't stick 'em in far enough, and I'd hazard that swabs administered by trained by non-medical personnel (who may be averse to causing discomfort in patients, even if ultimately for their benefit) are probably similarly less reliable.

From what I understand, false positives are actually more common than negatives. I suppose that would be an artifact of the sinuses doing what they're supposed to, and capturing the virus before it's fully inhaled. So a person would have some viral material in their nose without being actually infected.

[MPMalloy]

I know someone who was tested, got a negative result, and was told there's a 30% chance it's a false negative.

Anybody finding good numbers on the actual accuracy of the rapid testing?

Very, if done right, but doing it right is hard.

The swabs have to be jammed way on up the nose or down the throat, which most people find--to use the term doctors and such seem to prefer--"uncomfortable". Self-administered swabs are therefore considerably less reliable because people don't stick 'em in far enough, and I'd hazard that swabs administered by trained by non-medical personnel (who may be averse to causing discomfort in patients, even if ultimately for their benefit) are probably similarly less reliable.

From what I understand, false positives are actually more common than negatives. I suppose that would be an artifact of the sinuses doing what they're supposed to, and capturing the virus before it's fully inhaled. So a person would have some viral material in their nose without being actually infected.

The human respiratory tract is a dirty place. All kinds of things can be cultured from it.