Camo in a PAW.

Items to keep you alive in the event you must evacuate: discussions of basic Survival Kits commonly called "Bug Out Bags" or "Go Bags"

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Camo in a PAW.

Post by moab » Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:21 pm

I'm a firm believer in camouflage. I've become really tired with people poo pooing camo. And/or referring to coyote brown or od green as camouflage. And tired of hearing about the perils of looking like a military person in general.

So what? So you look like a military person? We're talking an INCH bag here. In a PAW. Not your local earthquake that killed a couple buildings. Of course your not gonna go walking around in your full military gear (looking like a dillhole - impersonating a military person) in a local natural disaster. That's what a civ shirt and pants are for. (Which is all you need to separate your load out from looking military or non military. Again, a shirt and pants. That's all.) In a real PAW I could care less if someone sees me in full military camo.

In a PAW everyone is a potential enemy (which is highly likely where I live in the city of Los Angeles - and where you live to). There are plenty of people with guns in this country. But very few that have planned for and stocked up for a PAW. If my AO turned into a PAW. Which it almost has several times. I want them to see me as a threat. I want them to think twice before "popping a cap off in my ass" to take my pack and other gear. And anyone with a pack full of stuff is going to look like a potential target. As that means "stuff you need". Which no one else prepared for. Who do you think the masses are going to jump and take their shit first? The guy with the full military load out carrying an assault rifle? Or the guy with the $500 pack, pretty colored REI pants, carrying ski poles and a floppy sun hat to match? HHmmmnnnn. I wonder who's gonna get thrown to the ground and stomped on first? And lose all their gear? Let alone shot in the head and lose their life?

If anyone comes within 200 yards of me they're going to get a warning. And it's not going to be a nice one. If I'm a criminal - whether by choice or circumstance (I'm starving.) - I'm going to think twice about trying to jump that guy that looks like special forces just landed into their AO. And you will have criminals in your AO whether by choice or like I say circumstance. Because they are starving. People will be looking for that which can keep them alive. Which boils down to - your stuff on your back. A person can be pressed into pretty negative behavior. By starving. Or worse yet watching their kids starve. You'd be surprised what a person will do to stay alive. Or better yet to keep their kids alive. And the vast majority of people have not set themselves up to survive a PAW. So your talking about 95% of the population looking at your stuff like a starving lion looking at some road kill.

You have to ask yourself - are you gonna come off like a mark or are you gonna come off like an adversary? If I walk around with a full load out of nice looking backpacking gear I better have something to protect it with. And a bad ass or even scary look is going to be my first defense. Hopefully avoiding getting challenged at all. Simply because of the way I look.

I live and work in a big city. Even casually walking around looking like a mark can get you killed. Or robbed at best. Let alone if I were doing the same in a PAW.

But my real defense is going to be my firearm. Do I want to use it? No of course not. So do I want to come off looking like I know how to use it? Or like I just picked it up at Big 5 (insert your own big box retail camping store) along with my fancy pack full of calorie rich dehydrated meals? Waiting to be knocked off by the first roving band I come across.

There seems to be this naivete concerning looking like the military. Like somehow everyone is going to jump you because you look like you can help them but you can't. Really? You think that's why people will become upset with you? They're not going to get upset with you cause you can't take them to safety. They're going to be upset with everyone with a pack that won't furnish them goods. NOW. Period.

Ever been mugged? I have. Almost. But the fact that I'm 6'3" 250+ and look like I'm on parole helped. a lot. My best defense. Was the "look" of a strong offense. That and I didn't back down. And all I had on me was a set of keys. Sometimes I think people in bigger cities have a better idea of what society can devolve into. As we witness it on a daily basis. Read about it in the news. And this isn't even a PAW. If you think this can't happen in your small town. It can. Simply insert - starvation. And it will quickly devolve into a no mans land. Of those that have stuff on their back. And those that do not.

I actually hope everyone that I meet along the way sees a military unit crawling up their block when they see us coming. Or a special forces loaded SUV if I'm bugging out in a vehicle. I want them to think twice about even being near me. And trust me. I'll make my presence known - when need be - and keep distance security as much as possible. Remember the Korean grocers on top of their grocery store during the riots? In full body armor shooting from their rooftop? They kept distance security. Anyone that came within sight of their store. If they didn't stop when asked. They shot at. And no one bothered their shit. While several blocks away people were getting pulled from their cars and beaten senseless with weapons no more sophisticated than a brick. And this wasn't even a PAW. It was simply a riot. That only lasted a few days. Imagine a true PAW. Where everything has shut down. And millions of people are without food and water - that which you so conveniently have on your back. That which is not going to be hidden whether buried in a camo pack or a civilian colored pack. A pack is a pack. The question is how are you going to keep yours?

In a PAW, the best defense is a strong offense. And if camo offends you. So be it. I'll be packing my pack a lot longer than you will. With your floppy hat and fancy $500 pack. Looking like your ready to take the city on a guided tour of the better campgrounds. So you go on and play "grey man". Like your going to somehow fit in with an REI pack on your back. And keep thinking that this is somehow going to cast some magic spell of invisibility. It's not. Your going to be a big fat mark with ANY pack on your back. Ripe for the taking. Or at best challenged at every corner because you don't actually look that hard to take.

But once in a rural setting the secondary use of camo comes in. Then your operational guidelines are going to shift. From offense. To clandestine - staying hidden. And let me tell you. Your not going to stay hidden in coyote brown, od green or some other solid color. You may think you are. And maybe from a thousand yards you'll be a little less visible than if you wore a bright color. But your still a mark.

I spent years in a Marine Corps sniper platoon. And I've literally stumbled over, bumped into and tripped over people in "correct" camouflage. You want to learn a survival skill? Learn "correct" camouflage. Learn how to hide in plain site. And I mean feet way. Not hundreds of yards. It's not that hard. It's no more involved than learning how to make a fire. You just have to have a good understanding of your current environment. And how to blend in or blend behind what you have in your AO. Trust me. That guy in camo clothing? And proper camo paint? And some local foliage? Is going to remain hidden. That guy in the coyote brown or od green. Isn't. Period. Don't fool yourself. I'm so sick of reading about people buying their favorite pack in "coyote brown so I can remain camouflaged!". Give me a break. Your going to be the target at 500 yards that gets picked off for his pack full of goodies.

And again, if you don't think things can devolve that quickly. Come visit me and we'll take a ride thru South Central. I'll show you devolved. And devolved can happen anywhere where people don't have the resources to live. And the hard truth is that 95% of Americans - no matter where they live (insert your town here) - aren't prepared with food, water, shelter and tools like you are. Your going to be a mark regardless of the color of your pack. So it better be one that can A) offends others into not even trying to take you or B) keep you hidden from others.

So stop with this incessant "camo is bad! your going to look military! people are going to be looking at you to take them to safety!". Because I call bullshit. In a PAW society is going to devolve quickly into something you need to protect yourself and your resources from. Learn how to cover yourself head to toe in proper camouflage. And learn how to put on a good offensive look. As it's going to be the best defense. Cause the streets are going to be littered with fancy, coyote brown, floppy hats from REI. Trust me.

My two cents on camo. For what it's worth.

Patrick


EDIT - My main point isn't to look intimidating. Or to try to relive a Dirty Harry movie. My main point is that "not" wearing camo is "not" going to turn you into an invisible man. That no one is going to notice.

Assuming everyone that is prepared and bugging out is going to be carrying a back pack. It's the fact that you have a back pack - supplies - that's going to get you noticed. So unless you plan on bugging out with nothing except what's on your body. There isn't a whole lot you can do to go "invisible". Certainly you can travel at night. And avoid as much contact as possible. But if having supplies is what's going to get you noticed. What difference does it make what you wear? Not much IMHO.

So why not wear the gear that you need in your final destination - the wooded or rural environment? Rather than end up where your going to spend the rest of your life - without the gear you truly need - camouflage.

As a side not. Wearing camo can't hurt your appearance. It can only help your appearance. At least with tactical and/or camo gear you at least look more serious than your average REI outfitted guy with no tactical gear and maybe a rifle in your hands. It can't hurt. Is what I'm saying. So why would you not wear it?

If it's what you need for the vast majority of the rest of your life - in your end destination anyway. And nothing is going to make you invisible. And it can't hurt to look a little more like you know what your doing. Why wouldn't you wear it?

My apologies if my OP came across as to abrasive. I guess I got tired of reading "you better not wear camo! your going to stand out in a PAW! and you won't be able to play invisible grey man!". There's no invisible grey man in a PAW IMHO. There's those with packs/supplies. And there's those without.

And you have two times you have to protect it. 1) On your way out. And 2) while your in the wild. Camo does nothing to hurt you in the first situation. And everything to help you in the last.

P.
Last edited by moab on Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Camo in a PAW.

Post by derf26 » Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:48 pm

I read your entire post, and I agree, at least in part. However, what you say applies more to the U.S. than to many other countries. For example, where I live, even carrying pepper spray is illegal, let alone any kind of weapons. All knives are also banned from streets, even those that don't lock. Firearms are almost impossible to acquire. In a place like your average European country, is the same kind of philosophy applicable, or do you think the grey man approach is better after all?

I think the real trick is being able to pull off both. For example, you could have a camo backpack, but use a bright red or blue pack cover with civy clothing for the first few days of the SHTF when some semblance of government is still around (if you have to go through checkpoints, etc.). Then, if things get really bad, put on your camo clothes and take off your pack cover.

I'm off to bed now, way too late here :gonk:
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Re: Camo in a PAW.

Post by 74 or more » Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:04 pm

Hell of a good write up. I think a lot of what you said makes sense. Since I’m a small guy (5'6") I’m not really going to be able to make my self look intimidating or have an offensive look as you put it. When your small people just want to pick on you for whatever reason. It doesn't matter if it's because they are a drunken frat boy or they're trying to survive in the PAW. Don't get me wrong, I've been in my fair share of scraps and I can handle my self but I don't know how I’d do against a mob of starving desperate people who want what I have. I said all that to say this: I want to be hidden as much as possible. Out of sight out of mind. I'm for camo. I try to buy most of my gear in camo (matching my AO). Sometimes my wallet doesn't let this happen. My pack is OD (I got OD because I love the pack and I was willing to compromise). I'd like Multicam but it's a bit pricy for me right now. I think OD or Coyote can be beneficial though. Just not all on its own. All and all in a PAW situation I’m going to try and get the hell out ASAP, and when I do that I want to stay hidden and I trust in camo to help me do that.
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Re: Camo in a PAW.

Post by Jungfrau » Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:48 pm

I would have to disagree with your idea of looking offensive with camo. Unless you are on scene with a squad size group of people, preferably men, all clad in (matching) camo equipped with (current) military gear I highly doubt anyone will be that intimated with your presence. What will they see, just another mark, nothing more. A person who carries themselves well will be far more intimidating than anyone dressed up to play military. If I was accessing someone it would not be based on their gear or clothing at all, it would be on them, nothing more and nothing less. This isn't just about jumping someone either, you can get a great feel for someone by their presence.

The fact that you continually tout camo and push your views on others is tiresome. I tend to avoid being an instigator and I don't want to be rude but I do find that you have defended camo numerous times when it was unnecessary. Those that want to wear it, great, if you feel it suits your needs best, wonderful. However don't come off as others are wrong for disagreeing with the concept of camouflage. If someone ask a question regarding the pro's and con's of utilizing camo then your post and information would be valuable for them. To start a post to defend your mindset seems almost attacking and that you are out to prove your mindset it the correct one for everyone and that they should agree.

The beauty of a forum is that everyone is allowed to express themselves and contribute beneficial information. Creating a thread that merely argues your point of view when no one asked a question does not appear to be all that helpful. Just as you have your reasons for defending camo, those who don't like camo have their reasons as well. Neither is correct and each can be helpful when the time is right.

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Re: Camo in a PAW.

Post by moab » Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:50 pm

derf26 wrote:I read your entire post, and I agree, at least in part. However, what you say applies more to the U.S. than to many other countries. For example, where I live, even carrying pepper spray is illegal, let alone any kind of weapons. All knives are also banned from streets, even those that don't lock. Firearms are almost impossible to acquire. In a place like your average European country, is the same kind of philosophy applicable, or do you think the grey man approach is better after all?

I think the real trick is being able to pull off both. For example, you could have a camo backpack, but use a bright red or blue pack cover with civy clothing for the first few days of the SHTF when some semblance of government is still around (if you have to go through checkpoints, etc.). Then, if things get really bad, put on your camo clothes and take off your pack cover.

I'm off to bed now, way too late here :gonk:
I feel for you man. I don't know what I would do. Except improvise weapons. Try to travel in a pack you can trust. I don't know. I agree with you about wearing civy out and camo once in the woods.
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Re: Camo in a PAW.

Post by moab » Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:50 pm

74_or_more wrote:Hell of a good write up. I think a lot of what you said makes sense. Since I’m a small guy (5'6") I’m not really going to be able to make my self look intimidating or have an offensive look as you put it. When your small people just want to pick on you for whatever reason. It doesn't matter if it's because they are a drunken frat boy or they're trying to survive in the PAW. Don't get me wrong, I've been in my fair share of scraps and I can handle my self but I don't know how I’d do against a mob of starving desperate people who want what I have. I said all that to say this: I want to be hidden as much as possible. Out of sight out of mind. I'm for camo. I try to buy most of my gear in camo (matching my AO). Sometimes my wallet doesn't let this happen. My pack is OD (I got OD because I love the pack and I was willing to compromise). I'd like Multicam but it's a bit pricy for me right now. I think OD or Coyote can be beneficial though. Just not all on its own. All and all in a PAW situation I’m going to try and get the hell out ASAP, and when I do that I want to stay hidden and I trust in camo to help me do that.
I should say that this is only if you can afford it. Like you say. An OD bag is better than no bag. I feel you.
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Re: Camo in a PAW.

Post by Kommander » Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:53 pm

So what happens if you have to use all this stuff when it not a total PAW? I remain a strong believer in assless chaps for PAW. No one is going to want to mess with a guy in assless chaps.
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Re: Camo in a PAW.

Post by PackLemming » Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:25 pm

Military will dig in during a PAW event. It is not in their tactical interest to reclaim the wilderness. It is in their interest to occupy the high ground, fortify it and protect it with extreme prejudice incase of trespass. Its a 28 days later affair and that includes the visceral human reproductive drive turning organised men into yabbering monkeys... :gonk: :evil:

If you want to be part of that Military clique you have to be in the group before the SHTF...if you dont meet the demands, recruit you are on the way out and relegated to the sacrificial headless chicken status. So you had better have a uniform that makes you look like one of the chicken mafia! You are correct that jeans and shirt will get you by...untill the black block begin to loot your area that is...

The thing to remember is that no one, not even military will be issuing uniform in the PAW due to industrial collapse so you had better have your wardrobe ready before any of this badness hits the streets.

People that believe Gold bullion will be defacto the common exchange rate and the "camo" to hide behind posing as a merchant class in such an environment will have a heart attack when the curtain is drawn back.
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Re: Camo in a PAW.

Post by moab » Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:28 pm

Jungfrau wrote:I would have to disagree with your idea of looking offensive with camo. Unless you are on scene with a squad size group of people, preferably men, all clad in (matching) camo equipped with (current) military gear I highly doubt anyone will be that intimated with your presence. What will they see, just another mark, nothing more. A person who carries themselves well will be far more intimidating than anyone dressed up to play military. If I was accessing someone it would not be based on their gear or clothing at all, it would be on them, nothing more and nothing less. This isn't just about jumping someone either, you can get a great feel for someone by their presence.

The fact that you continually tout camo and push your views on others is tiresome. I tend to avoid being an instigator and I don't want to be rude but I do find that you have defended camo numerous times when it was unnecessary. Those that want to wear it, great, if you feel it suits your needs best, wonderful. However don't come off as others are wrong for disagreeing with the concept of camouflage. If someone ask a question regarding the pro's and con's of utilizing camo then your post and information would be valuable for them. To start a post to defend your mindset seems almost attacking and that you are out to prove your mindset it the correct one for everyone and that they should agree.

The beauty of a forum is that everyone is allowed to express themselves and contribute beneficial information. Creating a thread that merely argues your point of view when no one asked a question does not appear to be all that helpful. Just as you have your reasons for defending camo, those who don't like camo have their reasons as well. Neither is correct and each can be helpful when the time is right.
I think that was what I was trying to do - promote conversation. I see the opposite point of view of mine in several posts. And IMHO I don't agree. Thus my post. If you disagree. Let's talk about. That's what forums are about. Give and take. My opinion might be changed. Who knows. At least I put my honest opinions out there. But like I said, if you disagree lets talk about it. Lets discuss it.

From my experience in the military and living in and near South Central Los Angeles it is essential to not be taken advantage of. I agree with you wholeheartedly about "presence". No amount of military gear is going to make you look intimidating if your not intimidating to begin with. But if you don't have some show of force (certainly in my AO and I suppose many others after chaos sets in) your going to be jumped by the masses. And lose your entire loadout. But my argument also isn't so much that camo is the right thing to wear in an urban environment. (Black would work fine.) It's just that camo's not wrong. You can only carry so much. And sooner or later hopefully your headed into rural areas. Where camo is essential. So it's not that wrong for your journey out. But I constantly read on the forum about camo being wrong for SHTF. And that may be true for a natural disaster. But I don't think it's true of a literal PAW.

But like you say - anyone without presence - isn't going to pull off any attempt to not become a "mark". Either way you have to do whatever you can to not look like a mark or become a mark. When your traveling in an urban AO (and I would argue any AO where starvation and arms exist) you had better have a good offense as your defense. Or your simply going to lose. So in a way a PAW really is like a Zombie Apocolypse if you think about. As it may not be real Zombies. But at some point the population turns into this starving mass. That will do anything to stay alive.

But again, I'm talking about a PAW. Not a natural disaster. If it's only a natural disaster I see no reason why you couldn't rock civilian attire across the board.

The basis of my conviction is that a PAW will lead to chaos. Starving people with guns looking for food, shelter - anything to help keep them and their families alive. The ability to remain hidden in a rural or forested environment is essential to ones survival. And thus camo is essential. As your never going to hide with civilian colors all over you.

I think there is a large difference between people with real military (or hunting) camouflage experience and people who don't. It's huge. I can't express enough how essential camouflage is. If you can't operate under camouflage you simply can't remain hidden. And especially not civilian colors or even solid od's or coyotes.

But I appreciate your comments. And respect that you disagree. I would like this to be a positive discourse. And my apologies if it came off as a diatribe. I've just been reading thru the Bug Out Gear forum going back many years. And this philosophy on camo gets repeated again and again.
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Re: Camo in a PAW.

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:30 pm

I would like to remind everyone that chaps with asses are...wait for it...pants.

On the camo thing: it's personal preference. i don't really need it, and for 99% of the time, camo won't make one lick of difference. I have camo, but only because I can't get a decent price for my MARPAT uniforms. Unless you're squaring off against trained scouts, most people won't see drab colors if they kind of match the surroundings. Feel free to disagree, but findign a coyote brown item in a coyote brown desert is a bitch. Same goes for most solid colors that match their surroundings.

Furthermore, being in a military-esque uniform means nothing to your safety. Murder is murder, and if someone's gonna kill and you take your stuff, chances are that they are familiar at least in some degree with the idea of airsofters and mall ninjas, and that they will not consider you military unless you're with a unit. Also, unless you're in military shape with a military haircut and military shave, expect to be thrown to the ground and stomped on, or shot in the head.

Furthemore, good luck getting out of LA without someone getitng within 200 yards of you, and NOT getting waxed by the national guard. I know the Guard ain't the best, but there's enough of them to wax you before you can plead self-defense. I would really like to see you look like special forces, and I would love to know why you think you're the only one with this plan? J.W. Rawles wrote basically the sae thing in his first book, and it went bestseller. Look how many people come on this or other boards with the idea that a gun and a plate carrier makes them "prepared" to go suquat in a national forest or walmart. Also look into the Katrina aftermath, where cops and guardsmen got shot at in full gear, or Haiti, where Infantry Marines (not reservists) in full battle rattle got shot at.

Patrick, I hate to bust your PAW fantasy, but unless you look like that guy I slept with on fleet week, 6' 3" 250lb does not look like special forces. Like I said, start reading more into the AARs for military responses to localized disasters. If you look military, chances are you're a) gonna get shot at or B) get detained when the Marines/Guardsmen deployed there to prevent a second April 1, 1992 see you and ask to see your military ID. Trust me, you do NOT want to be holding a rifle in a disaster area when a squad of jumpy Marines who've taken a couple casualties ask you where you're going. See how far a mean look gets you there.

Finally, I think you're a bit off in never-never land here. how likely is a PAW? How many people here are poo-pooing cammies? Mayeb you're looking in the wrong threads, but there's plenty of us who are active, retired, or just plain tired and still keep the cammies we served in. Frankly, i would hae been nicer, but this whole post comes off as a chance to talk about how high speed you are, and how much better you are than the other 99% who are not nearly as enlightened.
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Re: Camo in a PAW.

Post by moab » Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:33 pm

Kommander wrote:So what happens if you have to use all this stuff when it not a total PAW? I remain a strong believer in assless chaps for PAW. No one is going to want to mess with a guy in assless chaps.
LMAO! I gotta find that avatar! Assless chaps baby. All the way! ;)

Like I said, I don't think there is to much that separates one loadout from another if you simply change your shirt and pants. No one is going to treat you differently just because your rocking a camo pack. But more importantly, who knows when what seemed like a temporary bug out turns into a long term bug out. Or INCH type situation. And you need to be prepared for that. I.E. - camo.
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Re: Camo in a PAW.

Post by Kommander » Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:47 pm

Just another thought here, if things have degenerated to the point where one is openly carrying a rifle then I really don't think it's going to matter if your in Multicam, ACU, or L.L. Bean. People are only really going to be considering the fact that your armed.
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Re: Camo in a PAW.

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:53 pm

The best armor and gear in the world does not keep you from taking a bullet in the head.
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Re: Camo in a PAW.

Post by skelco » Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:54 pm

I reread your post a couple of times and I can see your point about cammo being useful for a situation where you have abundant natural cover, but if you're around south central LA, you've got a bit of a hike to get to a forested area where you can use it (not counting Griffith park of something). Walking out of that area during serious unrest at any time of day is going to put you in a seriously vulnerable spot and I'm guessing progress will be slow. How are you preparing to get you and your family/friends/commando squad through that densely populated urban sprawl?
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Re: Camo in a PAW.

Post by moab » Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:59 pm

Doc Torr wrote:I would like to remind everyone that chaps with asses are...wait for it...pants.

On the camo thing: it's personal preference. i don't really need it, and for 99% of the time, camo won't make one lick of difference. I have camo, but only because I can't get a decent price for my MARPAT uniforms. Unless you're squaring off against trained scouts, most people won't see drab colors if they kind of match the surroundings. Feel free to disagree, but findign a coyote brown item in a coyote brown desert is a bitch. Same goes for most solid colors that match their surroundings.

Furthermore, being in a military-esque uniform means nothing to your safety. Murder is murder, and if someone's gonna kill and you take your stuff, chances are that they are familiar at least in some degree with the idea of airsofters and mall ninjas, and that they will not consider you military unless you're with a unit. Also, unless you're in military shape with a military haircut and military shave, expect to be thrown to the ground and stomped on, or shot in the head.

Furthemore, good luck getting out of LA without someone getitng within 200 yards of you, and NOT getting waxed by the national guard. I know the Guard ain't the best, but there's enough of them to wax you before you can plead self-defense. I would really like to see you look like special forces, and I would love to know why you think you're the only one with this plan? J.W. Rawles wrote basically the sae thing in his first book, and it went bestseller. Look how many people come on this or other boards with the idea that a gun and a plate carrier makes them "prepared" to go suquat in a national forest or walmart. Also look into the Katrina aftermath, where cops and guardsmen got shot at in full gear, or Haiti, where Infantry Marines (not reservists) in full battle rattle got shot at.

Patrick, I hate to bust your PAW fantasy, but unless you look like that guy I slept with on fleet week, 6' 3" 250lb does not look like special forces. Like I said, start reading more into the AARs for military responses to localized disasters. If you look military, chances are you're a) gonna get shot at or B) get detained when the Marines/Guardsmen deployed there to prevent a second April 1, 1992 see you and ask to see your military ID. Trust me, you do NOT want to be holding a rifle in a disaster area when a squad of jumpy Marines who've taken a couple casualties ask you where you're going. See how far a mean look gets you there.

Finally, I think you're a bit off in never-never land here. how likely is a PAW? How many people here are poo-pooing cammies? Mayeb you're looking in the wrong threads, but there's plenty of us who are active, retired, or just plain tired and still keep the cammies we served in. Frankly, i would hae been nicer, but this whole post comes off as a chance to talk about how high speed you are, and how much better you are than the other 99% who are not nearly as enlightened.
I was that guy you slept with during fleet week! You don't even remember me?! ;)

Again, I'm talking about a PAW. Not a Katrina. I would not advise anyone to run around in full military gear during a natural disaster. I'm talking about after the National Guard has collapsed.

I just think you get a different perspective living in a more dangerous urban environment. That is very similar to any other arena where the resources to live are in short supply. Like a PAW for instance. I'm certainly not defending mall ninjas. But if the SH did HT I'd want to look as menacing as possible in my AO. And as camouflaged after that as possible. Once I reached a rural environment. What I would not want to look like is some casual hiker with all the latest and greatest gear strapped to me. Lolly gagging around in a floppy hat and ski poles. That guy I would knock off for his shit in a heart beat. If I was a starving citizen. In an urban or rural environment.

The guy I would not want to mess with would be the guy with his shit together. Squared away. With a weapon and ammo and the means to use it. Whether that guy looks like special forces or a leo or a hunter or just some guy with his shit together. Doesn't matter to me. I just want to get out. Alive. And with all my stuff.

But if you don't believe a PAW could happen this conversation is useless. That's a fundamental difference in opinion that makes this conversation mute. Sometimes I think we should preface every conversation on here as to whether we are talking about natural disasters or real PAW's.

But lets get back to the dish. What happened during fleet week? Do tell! ;)

P.
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Re: Camo in a PAW.

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:17 pm

He would have made you weep to look upon him...

Anyway, my point was that even in a PAW, in the opening stages, the .mil (at least the guard) will likely be called up, and since a PAW hasn't happened, it's hard to say if the .mil will get shot at, but guys that were and looked like .mil get shot at in natural disasters. Why would a PAW be different?

I should point out that I'm not saying that a PAW won't happen. My luck is such that saying that would make it happen. I just think it's far less likely than a whole host of other disasters. Also: I haven't ever read an AAR from a PAW, so I can't comment on how shit will go down.
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Re: Camo in a PAW.

Post by skelco » Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:33 pm

moab wrote:Lolly gagging around in a floppy hat and ski poles. That guy I would knock off for his shit in a heart beat. If I was a starving citizen. In an urban or rural environment.

The guy I would not want to mess with would be the guy with his shit together. Squared away. With a weapon and ammo and the means to use it. Whether that guy looks like special forces or a leo or a hunter or just some guy with his shit together. Doesn't matter to me. I just want to get out. Alive. And with all my stuff.
so you're just gonna out mean em? There are more than a few mean fellows in that neck o the woods and some of them were in the Marines too. Why do I keep thinking of Blackhawk Down?
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Re: Camo in a PAW.

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:41 pm

skelco wrote: so you're just gonna out mean em? There are more than a few mean fellows in that neck o the woods and some of them were in the Marines too. Why do I keep thinking of Blackhawk Down?
BHD is another one that's a decent reference for military in a SHTF disaster. not the op itself, but the way that the locals had no problem squaring off against UN peacekeepers and most of the Army units, even when they were providing aid.
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Re: Camo in a PAW.

Post by prepper7 » Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:11 pm

I enjoyed reading your post, OP.

I'm not an all-or-nothing type with regard to camo, I don't see one correct answer in the debate.

In camo:
civvies may want you to save and protect them. Low-aggression dirtbags may shy away from a direct confrontation. Tactically inclined dirtbags will neutralize you from a distance. You'll be able to blend into rural surroundings. Etc.

In civvy-camo (REI gear :)):
you're non-threatening and may fly beneath robber radar. You appear to be an easier target than the guy in high-speed/low-drag tacticool kit. Your "easier targetness" gives you the element of surprise when criminals attack. Etc.

Force projection: it goes both ways. <shrugs>

I think the biggest takeaway from your post should be that if you've gear, you're going to be a target. And you should prepare for that, too.
You'd be surprised what a person will do to stay alive. Or better yet to keep their kids alive.

Truth be told, I'm surprised by what people won't do to protect the children they supposedly love so much. Divert a week's worth of "boys night"/mani-pedi money each month to build up an emergency supply of food and water? Hell no! Murder some random person (or their next door neighbour) and steal their food (condemning their children to starvation)? They're all over that idea. You see them bragging on various forums about "doing what they've gotta do".
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Re: Camo in a PAW.

Post by Arkane » Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:21 pm

Doc Torr wrote:He would have made you weep to look upon him...

Anyway, my point was that even in a PAW, in the opening stages, the .mil (at least the guard) will likely be called up, and since a PAW hasn't happened, it's hard to say if the .mil will get shot at, but guys that were and looked like .mil get shot at in natural disasters. Why would a PAW be different?

I should point out that I'm not saying that a PAW won't happen. My luck is such that saying that would make it happen. I just think it's far less likely than a whole host of other disasters. Also: I haven't ever read an AAR from a PAW, so I can't comment on how shit will go down.
Doc - you freaking slay me man... I aint' laughed that hard all day. Having lived in LA during some really shitty times (Earthquake, Riots - seems every time I spent any appreciable time there some really fucked up shit happened) I'll tell ya this much - that entire metro area is going to go to shit with a purpose and make Mogadishu look like Disneyland. Leave early, camo or not.

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Re: Camo in a PAW.

Post by prepper7 » Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:24 pm

Arkane wrote:<snip> Having lived in LA during some really shitty times (Earthquake, Riots - seems every time I spent any appreciable time there some really fucked up shit happened) I'll tell ya this much - that entire metro area is going to go to shit with a purpose and make Mogadishu look like Disneyland. Leave early, camo or not.
My major fear/certainty. :cry:
Where will YOU Appleseed?
phil_in_cs wrote: Get your rice and beans now, when you don't have to pay for them in blood.
squinty wrote:You wear "chaps" to break a bronco, you wear "assless chaps" because civilization has collapsed and you've gone feral.
Blacksmith wrote:That is an excellent topic for another thread. You should start one about that. Really.

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Re: Camo in a PAW.

Post by moab » Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:54 pm

Arkane wrote:
Doc Torr wrote:He would have made you weep to look upon him...

Anyway, my point was that even in a PAW, in the opening stages, the .mil (at least the guard) will likely be called up, and since a PAW hasn't happened, it's hard to say if the .mil will get shot at, but guys that were and looked like .mil get shot at in natural disasters. Why would a PAW be different?

I should point out that I'm not saying that a PAW won't happen. My luck is such that saying that would make it happen. I just think it's far less likely than a whole host of other disasters. Also: I haven't ever read an AAR from a PAW, so I can't comment on how shit will go down.
Doc - you freaking slay me man... I aint' laughed that hard all day. Having lived in LA during some really shitty times (Earthquake, Riots - seems every time I spent any appreciable time there some really fucked up shit happened) I'll tell ya this much - that entire metro area is going to go to shit with a purpose and make Mogadishu look like Disneyland. Leave early, camo or not.

Agreed. This city is going to burn down. That's why my first bug out plan is via water.
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Re: Camo in a PAW.

Post by moab » Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:02 pm

skelco wrote:
moab wrote:Lolly gagging around in a floppy hat and ski poles. That guy I would knock off for his shit in a heart beat. If I was a starving citizen. In an urban or rural environment.

The guy I would not want to mess with would be the guy with his shit together. Squared away. With a weapon and ammo and the means to use it. Whether that guy looks like special forces or a leo or a hunter or just some guy with his shit together. Doesn't matter to me. I just want to get out. Alive. And with all my stuff.
so you're just gonna out mean em? There are more than a few mean fellows in that neck o the woods and some of them were in the Marines too. Why do I keep thinking of Blackhawk Down?
What's the alternative? Hand my gear out to them on the first day of the PAW? :) I mean seriously. You have to at least have a plan to get out of this hellhole. Which is why i'm traveling towards the water and not east.
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Re: Camo in a PAW.

Post by DannusMaximus » Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:13 pm

Subdued colors of any type are just fine for camoflauge in an urban environment, IMHO. If you're sitting still, you'll dissappear, pretty much no matter what you're dressed in. If you're moving, you'll catch somebody's eye, pretty much no matter what you're dressed in.

We have a sadly large number of 'street people' in my work AO. They are almost uniformly dressed in dirty denim and khaki colors with gray sweats or flannel shirts thrown in depending on the season. They vanish when they are just sitting on a curb or against a house or standing in a park. A person walking in camoflague would stick out like a sore thumb, which means you'll attract attention, attention which is almost certainly unwanted in the situations you describe.

There's something to be said for an intimidating look, I suppose, but I don't think it has anything to do with dressing in all camoflauge.
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