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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:23 pm 
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My BOB is similar to my wife's, but there's an assumption built in that I'll be doing more of the aggressive/dangerous stuff while she'll be in more of a defensive posture with our children. In other words, she'll be camped out at the fork here while I go see what's down each of these roads.
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My BOB is built on the concept of a 3 day bug out where I am moving and looking for family, security, or supplies either going to/from a questionably secure BOL:

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Maxpedition Bag with lots of MOLLE webbing...

Fire & Light:
- WW2 any liquid fuel ligther
- Butane lighter and butane refill tank
- Waterproof matches
- Flint knife/fire starter
- 3 Sterno cans
- 1 3 minute flare
- 2 12 hr glow sticks
- LED hat light
- Surefire flashlight and extra batteries

Water:
- 100 oz camelback bladder
- Katadyn filter and 27 oz steel or nalgene water bottle
- Water purification tablets

IFAK is described elsewhere but aimed around preventing infection, burn/puncture wound mgmt, barter.

Shelter:
- Camo milsurp poncho/targ
- Hammock
- 0 to 30 deg sleeping bag and yoga mat (not shown)
- 3 pairs of wool x-scent boot socks
- Kevlar gloves
- mid-weight thermal xscent silk underwear
- 100' of paracord
- assortment of S and other types of carabiners
- 6 Tarp clips
- Seam repair/awl punch kit

Food:
- Can of Chedder easy cheese
- 2 cans of chilli
- 3 Mainstay 3,600 calorie food bars
- Chocolate and honey
- 2 fishing poles, 3 auto-reels, tackle box, extra line
- Field game kit

Weaponry:
- Field and game kit
- Ka-bar machette or Annihilator Dead on
- Shotgun or rifle and ammo
- 9mm Sidearm and ammo
- Leatherman skeletool

Other Stuff:
- Wiley X Goggles
- Barksa Monocular
- Gun cleaning kits
- Wilderness Survival, Setting Traps, and First Aid for Soldiers field guides
- Route maps for area around BOLs
- Generic survival kit in waterproof bag
- Backup ID, money
- 2 way radio with NOAA/Alert scan
-Super towel


I'm going to be taking the modular approach some of you have taken here at ZS, where clothing and other things can be added/removed as needed and doing a frame pack with tent and other supplies that would be good for up to 2 weeks in PAW. Entire thing weighs in about 55 lbs inlcuding complement of weapons. Since I can't go hiking here with weapons, I put a 10 lb weight in the pack and 10 lb ankle weights on and did a 2 mile hike with this stuff. It was tolerable for 2 miles. Much more than that and I'll be getting pickier and choosier about weight items.

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Last edited by EricinVirginia on Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:29 pm 
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you need a change of underpants

and socks

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:28 pm 
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i dont understand putting a leatherman under weapons, i own a skeletool and it more of a tool than a weapon


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:13 pm 
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That picture next to the trail sign is telling me: "move the fishing pole to a different mount to keep it from hitting my leg when I walk"

Also, its been said here before; never wear ankle weights when hiking/walking. Only for stationary exercizes.

-fenris-

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:24 pm 
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Drifting OT:
EricinMaryland wrote:
I put a 10 lb weight in the pack and 10 lb ankle weights on and did a 2 mile hike with this stuff. It was tolerable for 2 miles. Much more than that and I'll be getting pickier and choosier about weight items.

Well done for trying it, but there was a thread here recently that recommended not wearing ankle/wrist weights other than for stationary lifting exercises, in case they mess up your joints. See viewtopic.php?f=6&t=52278 towards the bottom of page 1.
(I see Fenris beat me to it!)

That aside ...

Is the bag a Falcon II? You should probably do up the Y-strap over the top pocket, it should make the bag more comfortable to carry (it'll help stop it sagging away from your back). I'm also quite impressed that you've managed to stuff all this gear into a 25-litre / 1500 ci pack.

3 cans of Sterno seems a lot, given that you're not carrying anything that needs cooking, or anything to cook with (except perhaps an empty chilli can or your "maybe" steel canteen).

Food. Given your 3-day aim you're packing a lot for one person, about right for two, or scantily for three. I'd ditch the canned chilli for Mountain House or similar, and I hope you've got a good reason for the spray cheese. I trust that everyone you're feeding likes the taste of lifeboat rations ...

Also on food, have a good think about whether you're really going to be hunting and fishing during a 3-day bug out.

Weaponry isn't something I can really comment on, but how about a fixed-blade knife? Something in-between the Leatherman and the machete, like say a Mora.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:05 pm 
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Looks like your setup is rather bulky/heavy for just a 3 day bag. Of course I don't beleive in the "only 3 days" concept for the most part, I say at least 7. But for what it's worth:

Food, replace at least the 2 cans of chili, and maybe the easy cheese can with something lighter and more compact. You could replace them with 2 chili MRE entrees, and the MRE cheese spread, if you must have nasty-tasting easy cheese.

- 2 fishing poles, 3 auto-reels, tackle box, extra line

All that for a bugout bag? If this was an INCH kit, maybe. But I think for this bag your would be served just fine with a compact fishing kit, maybe a gill net for good measure. You really don't need a pole, let alone 2 with 3 reels. You can put together a fishing kit for a few bucks but if you feel like buying one I'd suggest a best glide kit:
http://www.bestglide.com/fishing_series ... _kits.html
Or the Pathfinder Pocket kit:
http://wildernessoutfittersarchery.com/ ... leWeb.html
Near the bottom of that page, I like it because it comes with plenty of extra room inside to add more of your own stuff.
But yeah a pocket kit is all you need for your bag, leave the poles and stuff in your vehicle kit.

You have Field and game kit listed twice; is that like a field dressing kit?

- 3 Sterno cans
These are kind of bulky, do you really need them? You may be better served with a Hobo stove, either wood burning or alcohol, plus I didn't even see that you had any sort of cookware. Also, you might want some sort of cookware, at the very least a canteen and stainless cup, or a nalgene bottle with a nesting cup.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:17 pm 
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Yeah, I see what you mean. To answer the questions:
- Ever since Boy Scouts, a knife is a tool, but c'mon, it's also a weapon. But, you're right. The field cleaning kit has a 6" fileting knife, a butcher type knife, and a skinning blade. The filet knife would work just fine as a weapon.
- Fishing poles could go easily, rifle/shotgun scabbard would/could replace it. I guess they're my token nod at the fact that a BO scenario needs to be flexible and while a 3 day plan is a good starting point... what if it's more than 3 days. I've also thought about putting a ground mat or backpacking tent along that side. Hiking with it, it hangs off my left shoulder and doesn't affect my legs at all.
- I'm obsessed with not getting cold. I could see dumping 1 of the 3 sterno cans but I'd rather have fire and warmth and not need it than the opposite.
- I like EZ Cheese. We've got a whole thread going about survival food and cheese's superiority over peanut butter . I also like the chilli... I'd rather have survival food and then some food I actually enjoy eating than be choking down survival food the entire time. I suppose I could drop 1 of the 2 chilli cans.
- It's a smaller bag, but it has all kinds of attachment points. I bought it on sale at my gun store and for the life of me can't find the bag tag that'd tell me what it is... but I really like it. I tend to try and buy what I need as small as I can find it. Silk instead of wool... and if you can attach things to the bag's outside, it's amazing how much space you keep free.
- I was kind of planning on using the chilli cans for heating water when I was done with the chilli. Also the metal bottle could be used for heating/cooking in a pinch... which would only matter if I had it instead of the nalgene. I was thinking of grabbing a hip flask... those heat really really quickly because of the large surface side area and because they're curved you can place them on a sterno can without snuffing the flame. Ummm... if you do this be careful... the screw on caps are for a very tiny area and these flasks aren't really designed to withstand any kind of pressure at all... so, not that this happened to me :shock: but if you try this only half a can and don't screw the cap on very tightly... just enough to prevent leaking. About 1.5 minutes on sterno for a 10 oz flask is scalding hot.

Super stupid question... INCH Packs? Like you're in an INCH of dying? What's an INCH pack? Also, maybe I missed this thread... but what's the ZS obsession with socks and underwear? It's not like you're starting the bug out scenario naked... If I'm able to access my BOB, I'm also able to access anything I might feel I need for the specific purpose of my 3 day trek. For a 3 day pack, I'd have 3+1 socks, good boots, good clean starting underwear, and a silk thermal base as a starting point. Ankle weights... yeah, they're bad but they were illustrative. I wasn't planning on a 2 mile trek, but the dog was having fun and it was a perfect early fall day so I just kept going.

Thanks for the comments. Keep them coming.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:38 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:43 pm 
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A hip flask isn't really a suitable container to boil water in. Why don't you get a cup that will nest on the end of your nalgene? It won't take up any significant space, and you'll be able to do a lot more than 5oz of water at a time.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:08 pm 
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Um... Its been a few years since I've messed with Sterno, but for the life of me, I can't remember it cooking food all that well, to say the least about boiling water.

Yah....the non-packing fishingpole should go, if you insist on fishing. Go with some sort of super-collapsable, or maybe a yoyo device, or Trot-line, eh?

-fenris-

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:18 pm 
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Shelter Issue
- Camo milsurp poncho/targ
I didn't note alternative rain gear I'd add a 2 X Large tarp and some clothes pins in case you find yourself rained on for several days in a row might be nice to unpack the sleep kit while it's raining and still be able to work on stuff. You mention kids I was wondering how the sleeping situation was for the kids. Sorry it's an issue I'm trying to approach and was wondering how you where working it.


Food:
- Can of Chedder easy cheese
- 2 cans of chilli
- 3 Mainstay 3,600 calorie food bars
- Chocolate and honey
- 2 fishing poles, 3 auto-reels, tackle box, extra line
- Field game kit

Like others have said I'd drop the fishing rods. If you have water you can fish all you need is a hook and some line. Rocks as weights, bobbers from wood, lures live bait from the area. Also while I'd include the fishing stuff and traps in the kit I wouldn't want to depend on it to feed the family. It would be nice to add some stuff from the wild. Another reason is your going to be spending more time doing other stuff. Then fishing should be set and left same as the traps. Checked in the morning after dawn and just after dusk if possible.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:29 pm 
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EricinMaryland wrote:
- Fishing poles could go easily, rifle/shotgun scabbard would/could replace it. I guess they're my token nod at the fact that a BO scenario needs to be flexible and while a 3 day plan is a good starting point... what if it's more than 3 days. I've also thought about putting a ground mat or backpacking tent along that side. Hiking with it, it hangs off my left shoulder and doesn't affect my legs at all.

If you are determined to take the full fishing setup go ahead but it looks heavy to me. I fully understand planning on more than 3 days, as I have already stated I don't believe in prepping for anything less than a week as far as BOBs go; but even then I probably wouldn't bother bringing a rod and reel.

Ground pad or tent though=good idea
Quote:
- I'm obsessed with not getting cold. I could see dumping 1 of the 3 sterno cans but I'd rather have fire and warmth and not need it than the opposite.

Sterno is great if you have to cook inside with no utilities, but for outdoor use there's much better things that you can flat out make yourself. If it's only for warmth you might want to consider some long-burning candles, would take up a little less space.

Quote:
- I like EZ Cheese. We've got a whole thread going about survival food and cheese's superiority over peanut butter . I also like the chilli... I'd rather have survival food and then some food I actually enjoy eating than be choking down survival food the entire time. I suppose I could drop 1 of the 2 chilli cans.

Right, well in that thread I was a peanut butter advocate :lol: seriously though you can get both chili and easy cheese out of MREs and in a much more ccompact and light package, not to mention the whole "just add water and prop up againt a rock or something" heating that MREs have.

Quote:
- I was kind of planning on using the chilli cans for heating water when I was done with the chilli. Also the metal bottle could be used for heating/cooking in a pinch... which would only matter if I had it instead of the nalgene.

Thing about using food cans for improvised pots is that they are lined on the inside with nasty stuff that you'll have to burn out first, either a plastic lining (pain in the ass to completely melt off) or it'll be galvanized on the inside (meaning if you heat it up, it will let off noxious zinc fumes) So if they're galvanized, put em in the fire and keep your distance until the zinc is fully gone. Lots of trouble to go through when you could add something half decent to cook in now instead of going through the trouble and time in a bug out situation.
Oh and what kind of metal bottle are you refering to?

Quote:
Super stupid question... INCH Packs? Like you're in an INCH of dying? What's an INCH pack? Also, maybe I missed this thread... but what's the ZS obsession with socks and underwear?
Thanks for the comments. Keep them coming.


Inch means "i'm never coming home". And socks and underwear because your feet and balls are very important.

Hope this helps.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:44 pm 
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+2 about cleaning the cans before use for water boil.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:58 pm 
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sheddi wrote:
Drifting OT:
EricinMaryland wrote:
I put a 10 lb weight in the pack and 10 lb ankle weights on and did a 2 mile hike with this stuff. It was tolerable for 2 miles. Much more than that and I'll be getting pickier and choosier about weight items.

Well done for trying it, but there was a thread here recently that recommended not wearing ankle/wrist weights other than for stationary lifting exercises, in case they mess up your joints. See viewtopic.php?f=6&t=52278 towards the bottom of page 1.
(I see Fenris beat me to it!)

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(As one of the resident gym rats it's impossible not to chime in here)

I wasn't around for the original discussion regarding ankle weights, but the truth regarding weight is that for all intents and purposes, your muscles will be bearing that weight, not your joints. Further, we're talking about a very minimal amount of weight below the knee. The amount of joint stress being fussed over here is negligible enough to be ignored.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:01 pm 
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Nice pack.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:13 pm 
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jnathan wrote:
I wasn't around for the original discussion regarding ankle weights, and I certainly don't want to call Y.T. a BS'er, but the truth regarding weight is that for all intents and purposes, your muscles will be bearing that weight, not your joints.

As one of the resident gym rats it's nearly impossible not to chime in here.
You can look it up if you want more specifics, I just didn't feel like searching to post sources. :) In addition to hearing that from doctors, I've also been told that by the physical therapist I worked with during my shoulder injury, the personal trainer I used to work with, and a number of people in the fitness profession.

According to them and to reports I'd read, your muscles aren't bearing the weight when you misuse the weights for walking, that's the problem. You're forcing all the strain onto your knees or ankles to lift and swing extra weight on the end of a long limb. (some even experience strain in the hip joint.) There's an imbalanced and disproportionate amount of resistance, tug and force being focused on the pivot or ball joints instead of on the muscles that should be supporting them. People who want to intensify their walking or hiking would be much better off simply picking up the pace, alternating sprints or jogging between intervals of walking, and/or setting time aside for strength training to actually focus on the muscles.

It's possible that professional opinions have swung in the opposite direction in the past several years, but the reasoning against it was sound so I haven't had the need to question it since. :)

Bearing the weight on the hips (such as putting a 10-20lb weight in the pack) isn't creating the same leverage resistance and stress as putting the weights on your ankles. Another option is holding weights while doing lunges or squats in place. That's a more effective way to increase leg strength and doesn't put the joints at the same risk as walking with ankle weights.

P.S. - got interrupted before I could post feedback on the bag. :)

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:50 pm 
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I am avoiding Raccoon city. There is just something about a nuke mixed in with Zombies that spooks me more. :lol: You have some good stuff but there seems like too much gear hung outside the pack. But I do have some of those same carabineers and like them. Not as much as my BD bineers however.

Things I would dump.

WW2 any liquid fuel ligther
- Butane lighter and butane refill tank


Replace with some Bics to reduce pack weight and bulk.

3 Sterno cans

Maybe an alcohol stove would be better and less bulky even with a fuel bottle.

- LED hat light

Most of these use button cell batteries. These tend to have less TRUE runtime than headlamps based on AA, AAA or CR123. So consider a true headlamp.

Can of Chedder easy cheese
- 2 cans of chilli


No cans. Look for more UL alternatives.

2 fishing poles, 3 auto-reels, tackle box, extra line

Seems like a bit much. If you have fishing as part of your preparations consider just one pole and good reel with extra line. If these break than a hand casting system using a canteen for a reel and the extra line works well.


Shotgun or rifle and ammo

Pick one. My preference is a rifle but gotta say I like my 870.

Things I would add.

1. Does your hammock have a bug net?

2. Some kind of camp stove to replace the Sterno.

3. Is that Surefire an LED?

4. Maybe another Nalgene in case the bladder gives up the ghost. They are UL and gear can be stored inside.

5. If I missed a compass in your list get one.

6. Toss in some tinder for bad weather. Maybe the world famous cottonballs/Petroleum jelly combo would be nice.

7. Did I miss a mess kit or kettle?


55 lbs is a bit much if your tolerance is 2-miles. There is no shame in this. I suffered last weekend humping a 45 lb pack 16-miles and guess an extra 10 lbs would have put the hurt on even more. :( It does not take too much extra to put the hurt on. You can mitigate this a bit with hiking poles. Find a weight that can be hiked 10 miles or 6 hours as distance on foot is measured in terms of time not miles. Best to find a mix that will not produce undue stress. The greater the weight the greater the calories needed to move the pack and there is more of a chance of injuries and blisters. For some systems that are not meant to be hiked over a longer range higher weight can be ok so only you can decide what is acceptable. It is your pack.

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Y.T. wrote:
jnathan wrote:
I wasn't around for the original discussion regarding ankle weights, and I certainly don't want to call Y.T. a BS'er, but the truth regarding weight is that for all intents and purposes, your muscles will be bearing that weight, not your joints.

As one of the resident gym rats it's nearly impossible not to chime in here.
You can look it up if you want more specifics, I just didn't feel like searching to post sources. :) In addition to hearing that from doctors, I've also been told that by the physical therapist I worked with during my shoulder injury, the personal trainer I used to work with, and a number of people in the fitness profession.

According to them and to reports I'd read, your muscles aren't bearing the weight when you misuse the weights for walking, that's the problem. You're forcing all the strain onto your knees or ankles to lift and swing extra weight on the end of a long limb. (some even experience strain in the hip joint.) There's an imbalanced and disproportionate amount of resistance, tug and force being focused on the pivot or ball joints instead of on the muscles that should be supporting them. People who want to intensify their walking or hiking would be much better off simply picking up the pace, alternating sprints or jogging between intervals of walking, and/or setting time aside for strength training to actually focus on the muscles.

It's possible that professional opinions have swung in the opposite direction in the past several years, but the reasoning against it was sound so I haven't had the need to question it since. :)


When humping a heavy pack it has always been my joints and hot spots from the suspension that has been the problem. Muscle fatigue is more of a secondary consideration for me. Also blisters can put the hurt on big time. I have good pack suspension systems to overcome the hot spots but gravity is beyond my control or for that matter true understanding. Heavy packs can also slide down the body when working elevation challenges. On the level one can walk a great distance overloaded. But toss elevation into the mix and the pack must be readjusted more and this is often in direct correlation to its weight. I can bench and squat my share at the gym but the forces placed on the body from going up and to some degree worse down inclines with a heavy pack is off the charts over the thousands of motions. Like everything else it is repetition that makes the difference. Hiking poles will reduce overall stress. Naturally I am no doctor and don't know the first thing about leg weights and how they stack up against pack weight. Somehow I feel these are not a good measure.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:34 pm 
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I think you went WAY WAY WAY overboard with the fishing equipment.

Poles are a western thing, and you dont really need them.

In most parts of the world you need 4 things to fish:

Hook
Line
Bait
Coke Bottle or Carved Stick

Only in America do we need a truck full of equipment to catch a fish.

In my BoB I have an altoids tin with 12 hooks and 6 small lures, outside the tin I have 300y of 30lb test line... thats it.

I can pick up a stick or coke bottle anywhere and fish anything in a lake or stream and it takes no space at all.

I highly recommend a similar setup for anything outside an INCH... and maybe even then.

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http://www.shelterpub.com/_baja/fishing.html

Here is a funny movie for jug lines, which are similar but not what I had in mind:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZW-whFwZ9Tg

Edit to add:
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Get a Silcock Key.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:52 pm 
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Merovech wrote:
I think you went WAY WAY WAY overboard with the fishing equipment.

Poles are a western thing, and you dont really need them.

In most parts of the world you need 4 things to fish:

Hook
Line
Bait
Coke Bottle or Carved Stick

Only in America do we need a truck full of equipment to catch a fish.

In my BoB I have an altoids tin with 12 hooks and 6 small lures, outside the tin I have 300y of 30lb test line... thats it.

I can pick up a stick or coke bottle anywhere and fish anything in a lake or stream and it takes no space at all.

I highly recommend a similar setup for anything outside an INCH... and maybe even then.

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http://www.shelterpub.com/_baja/fishing.html

Here is a funny movie for jug lines, which are similar but not what I had in mind:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZW-whFwZ9Tg

Edit to add:
Image
Get a Silcock Key.


Some more info on handcasting fishing gear.

viewtopic.php?t=12054&highlight=

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:33 am 
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Y.T. wrote:

You can look it up if you want more specifics, I just didn't feel like searching to post sources. :) In addition to hearing that from doctors, I've also been told that by the physical therapist I worked with during my shoulder injury, the personal trainer I used to work with, and a number of people in the fitness profession.

According to them and to reports I'd read, your muscles aren't bearing the weight when you misuse the weights for walking, that's the problem. You're forcing all the strain onto your knees or ankles to lift and swing extra weight on the end of a long limb. (some even experience strain in the hip joint.) There's an imbalanced and disproportionate amount of resistance, tug and force being focused on the pivot or ball joints instead of on the muscles that should be supporting them. People who want to intensify their walking or hiking would be much better off simply picking up the pace, alternating sprints or jogging between intervals of walking, and/or setting time aside for strength training to actually focus on the muscles.

It's possible that professional opinions have swung in the opposite direction in the past several years, but the reasoning against it was sound so I haven't had the need to question it since. :)

Bearing the weight on the hips (such as putting a 10-20lb weight in the pack) isn't creating the same leverage resistance and stress as putting the weights on your ankles. Another option is holding weights while doing lunges or squats in place. That's a more effective way to increase leg strength and doesn't put the joints at the same risk as walking with ankle weights.

P.S. - got interrupted before I could post feedback on the bag. :)


Let's be clear here, I'm not suggesting someone use ankle weights instead of hiking. The reason being because ankle weights don't do much of anything; they're not a replacement for actually hiking and they're far too light to have any substantial effect on muscle building. The OP of this thread wasn't suggesting he'd use ankle weights as a means of training, he was using them to simulate a longer hike. The insinuation, however, that ankle weights create some kind of additional risk that isn't present in a lunge or squat with the same weight is untenable. Both the squat and lunge require a much greater range of motion and if anything create a much bigger risk than what we're ultimately arguing about here - walking.

Unless he's hiking in a manner that resembles Northwestern University Marching Band's high stepping, this discussion about the stress placed upon joints is pretty ridiculous; it just doesn't hold any water (even if he is high stepping it's still ridiculous). The height the foot is raised off the ground, coupled with the fact that the vast majority of the joints in the human body are actually above where this minuscule weight is placed coupled with the fact that your muscles bear the majority of the load all equate to this being a tempest in a teacup.

Having considered sitting for the ACE, ISSA and ACSM personal training certifications and explored their materials, I will eat my Propper boonie hat if you can a reference in their training materials warning of the risk of walking with ankle weights. If you in fact had the forethought to ask your physical therapist about using ankle weights while being treated for a shoulder injury, I applaud your planning ability.

Last, a lot of credence is placed on what your doctor had to say about fitness. Unless we're specifically speaking about a sports medicine orthopedist, and I doubt we are, this can be best summarized by Dr. Nikhil Rao:

Quote:
Medical education is extremely intense, and extremely broad. It has to be. That said, there is a lot it doesn't cover. We learn the atomic structure of every amino acid (most of us promptly forget all of this after the biochemistry final). We learn the equations for cardiovascular physiology. We learn the branches of every nerve, the origin and attachment for every muscle in the human body.

But we don't learn the basics of healthy nutrition. We don't learn about cardiovascular and musculoskeletal adaptations and responses to exercise. We don't learn about how insulin facilitates the utilization of protein and creatine.


Your physician will tell you a lot of things. Some of them are the product of dogma and not science. Fitness and nutrition are pretty much voodoo for most physicians.

-Jeff

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:07 am 
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Y.T. wrote:
jnathan wrote:
I wasn't around for the original discussion regarding ankle weights, and I certainly don't want to call Y.T. a BS'er, but the truth regarding weight is that for all intents and purposes, your muscles will be bearing that weight, not your joints.

As one of the resident gym rats it's nearly impossible not to chime in here.
You can look it up if you want more specifics, I just didn't feel like searching to post sources. :) In addition to hearing that from doctors, I've also been told that by the physical therapist I worked with during my shoulder injury, the personal trainer I used to work with, and a number of people in the fitness profession.

According to them and to reports I'd read, your muscles aren't bearing the weight when you misuse the weights for walking, that's the problem. You're forcing all the strain onto your knees or ankles to lift and swing extra weight on the end of a long limb. (some even experience strain in the hip joint.) There's an imbalanced and disproportionate amount of resistance, tug and force being focused on the pivot or ball joints instead of on the muscles that should be supporting them. People who want to intensify their walking or hiking would be much better off simply picking up the pace, alternating sprints or jogging between intervals of walking, and/or setting time aside for strength training to actually focus on the muscles.

It's possible that professional opinions have swung in the opposite direction in the past several years, but the reasoning against it was sound so I haven't had the need to question it since. :)

Bearing the weight on the hips (such as putting a 10-20lb weight in the pack) isn't creating the same leverage resistance and stress as putting the weights on your ankles. Another option is holding weights while doing lunges or squats in place. That's a more effective way to increase leg strength and doesn't put the joints at the same risk as walking with ankle weights.

P.S. - got interrupted before I could post feedback on the bag. :)


You've got to be shitting me. Ankle weights are like, 5 pounds or something, if that causes "strain" then you have muscles made out of wet paper. However, as humans do NOT have muscles made out of such a weak material, I would say that what you were told is pretty much bullcrap, to be blunt. It's pretty scary that you heard it and decided not to question what is so obviously a very unrealistic opinion. If you believe anything you hear, then I have some special healing rocks I'd like to talk to you about..


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:14 am 
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I don't think using 10 pound weights over 2 miles has much of a + or - effect. What should sink in is that your pack weighs too much for you right now if your intent is to carry it any distance.

3 possible solutions:

1. Dump some of the load and/or make it lighter by replacing the heavy stuff with lighter choices. If you are forced to carry this any distance there is a good chance you are going to be ditching stuff right and left anyway.

2. Develop the ability to haul what you have.

3. Really the best solution in my opinion is some combination of the first 2.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:39 am 
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This thread is great. Thank you so much for the feedback. I love the posts about fishing... the auto reels are those yo-yo devices that you mount to a stick and when a fish snags them, they slowly reel the fish in. Kind of a set and forget device. So, I can dump the poles easily. Both poles are collapsibe to 18", but I also have a collapsible hiking stick in the bag. The hiking sticks would work well for a longer hike, but I see a higher probability of wanting to keep my hands free or to be holding a long arm.

I did not know about the issues with cooking and will look for a small mess kit. Hammock does not have a mosquito net, but I have a boonie hat that does. Since I'd be sleeping in my clothes, I think I might be okay from mosquitos, and maybe the gods will smile on me and keep me free of ticks.

The ankle weight discussion is interesting. I have three boots... converse tactical boots, steel toe tactical boots, and warm/winter/waterproof. All are pretty heavy and are nowhere close to what I normally wear during normal life. In bug out, I'd pick and choose which boots very carefully. Given all the ankle accessories you can get from wallets, to pistol/knife holsters, to baton holsters... I have to think that if you think you MIGHT be using such a device, you need to train and be familiar with it. My prefered sidearm - loaded - weighs about 5.2 lbs. With a steel toe boot and heavy socks, I'm going to have some weight right? The ankle weights were to simulate a fuller level of gear load than what I can do in the forest I went hiking in. Am I the only one that thinks training with a approximate gear loads is a good idea? What do police do when they have an ankle pistol or boot knife? I doubt they counter-balance it by putting an equally heavy object in their other boot. It was a warm day and I didn't have my jeans on loaded up with gear, nor did I want to, and thought - what the heck.

I'll switch out the LED hat light with the Gerber Carnivore headlight... it's brighter and takes the same batteries as other stuff I have. The Surefire is an LED and is mounted as part of a vertical forend grip for either the shotgun or rifle. I'll look at other food options... as I'd like to free up some space for a CR123A/AA/AAA battery charger and flexible solar panels. Compass is a good idea, but I haven't seen one that I like yet... either too bulky, too technical, or too fragile.

I'm Never Coming Home... ouch.

Foot and ball protection makes sense and appropriately - I suppose - explains the ZS fixation on underwear and socks.

In bug out, I'm assuming I'm going out on my own with wife and kids camped at the Silent Hill/Racoon City fork in the road. Kids are too young right now and 1 of us has to be with them. I suppose I'm a bit more disposable to the family than wife just due to the whole shelf life thing... once my epilepsy meds run out, a lot of things will change for me.

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