Ideas on best bug out firearms?

Items to keep you alive in the event you must evacuate: discussions of basic Survival Kits commonly called "Bug Out Bags" or "Go Bags"

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Asymetryczna
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Re: Ideas on best bug out firearms?

Post by Asymetryczna » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:38 am

but I think the need for protect is real
Concur. Which is why I make suggestions rather than listing everything I would consider taking when I stepped off. How long do you think it takes AI to find every word you have typed, and every picture you have posted?
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Re: Ideas on best bug out firearms?

Post by JeeperCreeper » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:15 pm

To add my own spin to Woodsghost's post (as well as what everyone has posted), I find there to be a big philosophical difference between "bugging out" and "evacuation". Yeah, they can basically be used interchangeably (and I do as well), but I really find them to be two different scenarios when you break-it-down (DJ, spin that track).

In my mind:

1. Bug-Out (ˈbəg-ˌau̇t) noun; a bugout or verb; to bug out: to leave home due to catastrophic events on a more permanent basis while generally implying societal collapse. Examples: zombies, nuclear war, mad max, aliens, robot takeover, civil war 2, world war 3

2. Evacuate (\ i-ˈva-kyə-ˌwāt , -kyü-ˌāt \) noun; evacuation or verb; to evacuate: to leave home due to catastrophic or threat thereof on a temporary basis with intentions on returning in a relatively short time-span with limited societal stress. Examples: hurricanes, fires, tornadoes, sharknadoes, spring break, iphone release party


I think evacuating (especially with a vehicle under little threat of violence) is much different than a fantasy like Bug Out (Book of Eli backpack and machete against meth zombie bikers) which is more of a fun mental exercise or excuse to buy cool shit. It's all on a spectrum... I leave my house every day for work and school, but that doesn't mean I am evacuating my home or bugging out of my AO.

The heat I pack is also based on that spectrum. Risk Anal-ysis. I love to Anal-yze.
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Re: Ideas on best bug out firearms?

Post by Halfapint » Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:44 pm

JeeperCreeper wrote:To add my own spin to Woodsghost's post (as well as what everyone has posted), I find there to be a big philosophical difference between "bugging out" and "evacuation". Yeah, they can basically be used interchangeably (and I do as well), but I really find them to be two different scenarios when you break-it-down (DJ, spin that track).

In my mind:

1. Bug-Out (ˈbəg-ˌau̇t) noun; a bugout or verb; to bug out: to leave home due to catastrophic events on a more permanent basis while generally implying societal collapse. Examples: zombies, nuclear war, mad max, aliens, robot takeover, civil war 2, world war 3

2. Evacuate (\ i-ˈva-kyə-ˌwāt , -kyü-ˌāt \) noun; evacuation or verb; to evacuate: to leave home due to catastrophic or threat thereof on a temporary basis with intentions on returning in a relatively short time-span with limited societal stress. Examples: hurricanes, fires, tornadoes, sharknadoes, spring break, iphone release party


I think evacuating (especially with a vehicle under little threat of violence) is much different than a fantasy like Bug Out (Book of Eli backpack and machete against meth zombie bikers) which is more of a fun mental exercise or excuse to buy cool shit. It's all on a spectrum... I leave my house every day for work and school, but that doesn't mean I am evacuating my home or bugging out of my AO.

The heat I pack is also based on that spectrum. Risk Anal-ysis. I love to Anal-yze.
If that's the case then cool let me respond this way:

1: Bugout - I'd probably have my AR, because we in some sort of catastrophe. The need for a battle rifle close at hand and easy to access would be great because of the roving gangs of assless chap wearing zombie bikers would be greater. I'd keep some side arm on my person but out of the way of the backpack and definitely not ON the pack because if I lost it or had to ditch it I wouldn't want to lose my sidearm. So I'd go with AR in 223/300bo (supersonic 300bo loads) and either my XDM 9/G40 for the side arm, they are the ones I shoot the most and am most comfortable with. Seeing as how this is SHTF I'd probably go 9mm.

2: Evac - Either my PPK/S or LCP380 with an IWB holster. With the rifles broken down and in the back. I'd keep the 300bo pistol within easy reach but not on me.
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Re: Ideas on best bug out firearms?

Post by woodsghost » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:21 pm

Asymetryczna wrote:
but I think the need for protect is real
Concur. Which is why I make suggestions rather than listing everything I would consider taking when I stepped off. How long do you think it takes AI to find every word you have typed, and every picture you have posted?
Dead on sir.



Ok. So we have some thoughts on Evacuations vs Bugouts. The OP simply specified "3 days on up to 365 days." And maybe living off the land.

I think we should also consider the level of government functioning. If there was an EMP or Carrington event I think the level of government functioning would be less than if a flood or major tornado hit. But ultimately "would that actually affect our choices?"

I was thinking about where it would be ok to openly carry rifles and where it would not. I think Ferguson, MO, and the LA riots (and Kateina, when the police were not around) are great examples of when people might openly carry rifles and it might only be a 3 day bug out. I suspect if one was patrolling ones neighborhood with a "U loot we shoot" sign one might get away with carrying a rifle or shotgun.

While Texas saw some long guns (I think?), and I know the 2016 Louisiana flooding saw long guns, I expect they were mostly "what was on hand" and "alligator medicine." I think the pics I saw were mostly shotguns?

Which brings us to shotguns. I suspect a wood stocked shotgun would be about the most PC tool to shoot somebody or something with. If I had to shoot something during a bugout I'd want the courts to see I did it with grandpa's shotgun. And ban states would probably frown more heavily on openly carrying a rifle than the shotgun. Unless people are in the streets with armor and rifles, I think the shotgun and revolver are the better options for bugouts. If I need to face legal consequences I'd rather have done it with one of those.

Further, a shotgun, inside a certain distance, will probably do less collateral damage than a rifle. The pellets have a smaller mass and slower velocity while being just as effective as a fighting rifle inside the shotgun's performance envelope. Which is about 10-25 yards unless you use specialty ammo. Those are the distances you can reliably expect to know where your pellets are going. So that shotgun has some major limits.

I remember a video from Texas or Florida with a guy guarding a strip mall with his shotgun and shouting at would-be looters. If I was going to pull such a stunt I'd rather be filmed wielding a shotgun. Grandpa's shotgun.

So in a world where the government is coming back online soon, I think a shotgun and pistol would be wise choices. But if you think you may need to fight bad guys in armor, carrying rifles, I think a rifle would be wise.

If I need to leave home for a year I think a rifle will likely be needed. If I only need to leave home for a few days and society is relatively intact I expect a pistol and simple shotgun would be good.

EDIT:

For many of our international contributors, a shotgun is the only legal option. Something to consider.
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Re: Ideas on best bug out firearms?

Post by JeeperCreeper » Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:30 pm

woodsghost wrote: Which brings us to shotguns.
Everytime I think of shotguns, I think of this video (riot rubber ammo but still awesome)

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Re: Ideas on best bug out firearms?

Post by RonnyRonin » Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:27 am

woodsghost wrote: Further, a shotgun, inside a certain distance, will probably do less collateral damage than a rifle. The pellets have a smaller mass and slower velocity while being just as effective as a fighting rifle inside the shotgun's performance envelope.

I think this begs further analysis.

The data I have seen about one-shot stops and overall mortality implies that shotguns are only fractionally worse then rifles, statistically speaking. The gel tests I have seen suggest that you are choosing between several very poor wound channels or one very good/bad wound channel (per trigger pull). While the collateral damage of a missed shot could be less (certainly a much shorter distance of potential problems) my concern always goes back to even a good hit having a larger chance of missed projectiles. Collateral damage is low in my calculations because I just don't think it is as big a problem as it is made in the mind of a suitably empathetic person, nor as big a potential threat (to everyone) as whomever needs stopped. The classic dry wall tests suggest that in a barrier rich environment the proper rifle bullet has a lower risk.

The hard limits of the shotgun (ammo weight, capacity, accuracy, range, etc.) are pretty dramatic in my mind and I can't help but think that how you come across in the news would be cold comfort when frantically trying to cram shells through a feedgate after your tube runs dry. While the court of public opinion can be fickle, I can't help but feel that juries are slightly more reasonable and a good shoot is a good shoot.
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Re: Ideas on best bug out firearms?

Post by teotwaki » Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:46 am

Regrding Woodsghost's choice of a shotgun.... it sounds as if simple birdshot was what he had in mind. How about 00 buck or slugs affecting that train of thought?
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Re: Ideas on best bug out firearms?

Post by tony d tiger » Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:26 am

teotwaki wrote:Regrding Woodsghost's choice of a shotgun.... it sounds as if simple birdshot was what he had in mind. How about 00 buck or slugs affecting that train of thought?
Exactly. ...and speed loaders for shotgun are an awesome way to stuff rounds back into the tube.
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Re: Ideas on best bug out firearms?

Post by woodsghost » Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:09 am

teotwaki wrote:Regrding Woodsghost's choice of a shotgun.... it sounds as if simple birdshot was what he had in mind. How about 00 buck or slugs affecting that train of thought?
I would never consider birdshot. Except maybe #2 or BB. If I was in a country which did not allow one to purchase buckshot.

I also will not say a shotgun is superior to a rifle, except in possibly in dealing with legal consequences. But it offers some food for thought.

This is just what I'm seeing right now, and I can change if I need to:

Buckshot (00) penetrates a little better than a .22 and has a larger diameter. 00 buck is .33 Cal and 53gr. 0 buck is .30 Cal and 40 gr. Velocity for 00 buck is typically between 1100 and 1600 fps, with the most common being 1300 fps. The velocity figures further suggest 00 buck will perform similarly to a .22 and 0 buck will perform very similarly to a .22 in terms of ballistic effect on target. The main difference being you deliver 8-15 (00 buck) or 12 to ... 24 (0 buck)? In 2 3/4 or 3 inch shells, respectively. So it's effectiveness comes from multiple wound channels and the more rapid exiting of blood vs many other rounds. Particularly pistol rounds, but many rifle rounds in FMJ form are not much more than icepicks. And this is "per pull of the trigger."

Now, when we talk about rifles being safer and offering less collateral damage than a shotgun we are talking about the right ammo selection in 5.56 and 5.45. I've been told the right ammo selection in 30 Cal/7.62 also works well and offers great effect on target with reduced penetration of walls and such.

While all that is well and good, what are the rounds and rifles typically used in a disaster situation? In America: probably a mixture of cheap 5.56 and 30 Cal hunting rounds. In terms of penetration these are not our best case scenarios. Thankfully I don't think many people are using their long guns for anything other than pigs and alligators.

Further, in an international context I'm not sure many people have access to all the choices we have in America. In that context choosing 00 buck may be better than grabbing the 9.3x62 or the 7mm magnum.

My memory is that 00 buck at 1300 fps typically goes through 8 sheets of drywall. That does not seem terribly different than the tests of HD 5.56 done by Reid Henrichs.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.thefirea ... ridge/amp/

The article links to the video. If I was on a computer I'd do up the link properly. But as it is I'm keeping a baby asleep.

In short, while the 5.56 did do better than the other rounds tested, and 00 buck was not tested, the 5.56 penetrated way more than I have been lead to expect by other articles. I suspect if using 5.56 one really only sees a performance gain if using very thin jacketed HP and SP.

Ried's video notes police moved away from 9mm SMGs and 00 buck to 5.56 because of penetration risks. My reading of rounds likely used at the time suggests LEOs probably found 40gr TAP rounds to be safer. I don't know that many 5.56 rounds could be said to be much safer than "00 buck stopping after 8 sheets of drywall," though Reid's crew did find one top performer. But overall there was more penetration and less fragmentation than I had hoped. Until I see more tests I'm thinking the penetration difference between 5.56 and 00 buck is small. With the exception of certain top performers. And some very lightweight and thin skinned rounds.

Lastly: slugs. My opinion: Winchester makes some fragmenting slugs. If I had to use slugs in a human to human situation, I'd use those. I don't think slugs are a great option. Slugs don't give the safety margin that buckshot gives. And if you need to deliver precise opinions and expressions of ire to a foe, I think the rifle does it WAY better. Slugs should only be used if no other choice exists. Or if in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Buckshot spread: this is why shotgun range is really only 10 to maybe 25 yards. Unless using something that patterns less than 10 inches at some greater distance. But shotguns spread fast and this really limits their range if seeking to reduce unintended casualties.

Capacity: you got me there. No argument from me. I'll just note that most engagements with criminals don't need to go beyond 1-2 rounds. If they know you are completely willing to end the threat I don't see many sticking around for pitched gun battles. Unless you are also taking away their territory. But in that case I'd want a rifle.

So those are my thoughts on shotguns. To summarize: sometimes a shotgun is the only legal option. Shotguns have more legal cover than other firearms. I'm not sure most HD 5.56 shows much improvement over 00 buck, though a few choices clearly outperform 00 buck. Just say no to slugs. Capacity sucks.
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Re: Ideas on best bug out firearms?

Post by Asymetryczna » Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:23 am

derf26 wrote:If you were putting together a bug out bag (say for 3 days) all the way up to an INCH bag (say, a year), what firearms would you go for?
It's rhetorical. So, perhaps you answer first.

Normally, I avoid questions asking about "best." It's a word that time and circumstances always beat. Take for instance Babe Ruth's untouchable lifetime record for homeruns. Synonyms include "second to none," and "beyond compare" so I ask, compared to what? The last time you packed up and left home for more than 90 days and needed to carry a rifle and PDW? The last time you did a movement to contact against assless chaps wearing, meth'ed up, prison breakout leather-loving biker clubs? In a perfect world, questions would be more specific. For example: I do not own any chaps but I am thinking of buying some and would like to use the audience opinion option so that I can start out with the chaps they think are the best. Which chaps do I buy? What PEIs do I need to maintain those chaps?

Personally, I do not want people to know what I would have. Hypothetically, walking around I would have a legal CCW frame and caliber I have trained with extensively. Also a blade for opening packages, fire for cooking any bacon I may come across, water because I expectorate a lot outside, and some snacks for when I stop to read. If it involved camping away from resources, I'd add a .22 and a shotgun, nothing as of yet visible to the public and with the focus on surviving years vice days.
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Re: Ideas on best bug out firearms?

Post by flybynight » Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:09 pm

For example: I do not own any chaps but I am thinking of buying some and would like to use the audience opinion option so that I can start out with the chaps they think are the best. Which chaps do I buy?
A little more specific on when and where you will be wearing said chaps.

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Re: Ideas on best bug out firearms?

Post by teotwaki » Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:06 pm

Asymetryczna wrote:....assless chaps wearing, leather-loving biker clubs?

Immediate movement to contact requested Sir!!

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Re: Ideas on best bug out firearms?

Post by JeeperCreeper » Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:36 pm

Asymetryczna wrote:
but I think the need for protect is real
Concur. Which is why I make suggestions rather than listing everything I would consider taking when I stepped off. How long do you think it takes AI to find every word you have typed, and every picture you have posted?
Big Brother already knows more. If AI is running the show, you think they can't look at internet browsing history, bank records, credit card statements, sales records, email server data, and parcel tracking data?? I don't list my own aresenal, but I'm also not afraid to talk about the guns that I own (that them commie robots know of)

All I gotta say is... come and get me robots!!!!

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Re: Ideas on best bug out firearms?

Post by RonnyRonin » Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:05 pm

I'd always been told that buckshot should be thought of as a bunch of FMJ .38 auto rounds, a lot better then .22 but no deformation, fragmentation, or other notable effects. The fact that it can be stopped by (ever more available) soft armor is another cause for concern. The other factor is that while on a per-tripper-pull basis the shotgun is likely equal I think a typical person with a minimum of practice can get out 3+ rounds from a controllable carbine in the same time as one complete cycle of a shotgun.


I have heard the public image discussion many times in a hypothetical context, and have heard many examples of how the prosecution played that game in court, but I have not heard of a specific example I can think of where the type of gun used notably effected the outcome of a trial. I would like to hear about some if anyone has links handy, it is certainly worth talking about but I have heard little but speculation. I would also surmise that within half a generation or so ARs will be at least as common, and if not less contentious at least similarly mundane as a pump gun to some degree.
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Re: Ideas on best bug out firearms?

Post by woodsghost » Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:36 am

RonnyRonin

I think it is fair to ask for real world examples of where rifles would have been bad but shotguns would be ok. Poking around the internet I found an article by the armed citizens legal defense network. It says a lot if what we have heard for years. It was written in 2008, if I'm not mistaken. In short, if a shooting is clear cut it does not matter what was used. The problems arise when marginal cases come to court. And do we want to plan on being a clear cut case? Or get some legal wiggle room in case it is a marginal shooting?

https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/choosi ... fense-guns

An article by Massad Ayoob on a conference on firearms and the law, attended mostly by prosecuting attorneys, mentions the subject of a "good shoot" (legally justified) drew laughter. And again legal experts on prosecuting shootings state that juries like their stereotypes, and it is prudent to conform to them. It can be helpful to remove variables from the legal equation.

https://www.personaldefenseworld.com/20 ... un-owners/

So I don't have specific cases, but the feeling among attorneys who deal with these cases is that it is in fact easier to justify the use of a shotgun. While truth and justice "ought" to happen, the reality is truth and justice are there, but not necessarily center stage.

As to 00 being like 38 auto, well, just peeking at Wikipedia, it looks like 38 auto runs from 115 to 130 gr, and that is more than double the typical mass of 00 buck. I would be wholely unimpressed with 00 buck if it did not have the track record of taking pigs, deer, and bad guys. The ballistics just don't make sense to me. But the effect is pretty clear and pretty established.

And when it comes down to it, hunting is what I put my hat on. If a round is good for 120-200 lb deer and hogs, I'm willing to bet my life on it.

Again, I am NOT arguing the shotgun is better than the rifle. I am only arguing that the shotgun has a place at the table and is a reasonable option.


EDIT: points about armor and training/follow-up shots are very valid. Armor issues apply to pistols and PCCs too, which is frustrating. Pelvis shots are still an option. Also, in the time it take to shoot and cycle a pump shotgun one fires 9-12 rounds, not 1 :) Or so the argument goes. I don't know how valid it is, but I have a hard time arguing against it.
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Re: Ideas on best bug out firearms?

Post by moab » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:17 pm

This is an excellent exercise. And my very honest analysis of it. Maybe to honest. lol.

My original bug out loadout would be very close to Ronny's. But with an AK.

AK 7.62
Glock 19 9mm
.22 pistol small

But for the life of me I'm having a hard time justifying the AK over the AR in this operational scenario. With that .22 conversion for my AR. I could see a HUGe advantage. I could drop the .22 pistol. And be better off for small game. I think my .22 pistol probably weighs about as much as the AR .22 conversion. So no advantage there. But accuracy would be much improved.

I much prefer the stopping power of the AK though. And it's reliability in situations where you might not be able to clean your rifle daily. The Glock is a given. I think that makes the list no matter what. In my HPG kit bag or on a belt.

Further, the commonality of 5.56 is another HUGE deal breaker. 7.62 is around. But not like 5.56. If I had to scavenge ammo after the fact. I'd much rather look for 5.56 than 7.62.

So here I am talking myself out of the AK. That I build. And have devoted over a decade of my life too. I own both the AK and AR platform.

I don't think you can go wrong choosing either. But damn this is a good argument for 5.56/.22 conv. I wish someone could do the same for an AK. Don't think that's possible.
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Re: Ideas on best bug out firearms?

Post by RickOShea » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:34 pm

moab wrote:I don't think you can go wrong choosing either. But damn this is a good argument for 5.56/.22 conv. I wish someone could do the same for an AK. Don't think that's possible.
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Re: Ideas on best bug out firearms?

Post by moab » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:38 pm

RickOShea wrote:
moab wrote:I don't think you can go wrong choosing either. But damn this is a good argument for 5.56/.22 conv. I wish someone could do the same for an AK. Don't think that's possible.
Ciener used to make an AK .22 kit. Image

http://www.22lrconversions.com/ak-pg.htm



Image
I think I just filled my pants.

That is very cool. I've never even heard of that. I need to be not only shooting these. I need to be selling them on our site. Very cool. Thank you so much!
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Re: Ideas on best bug out firearms?

Post by flybynight » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:55 pm

moab wrote:
RickOShea wrote:
moab wrote:I don't think you can go wrong choosing either. But damn this is a good argument for 5.56/.22 conv. I wish someone could do the same for an AK. Don't think that's possible.
Ciener used to make an AK .22 kit. Image

http://www.22lrconversions.com/ak-pg.htm



Image
I think I just filled my pants.

That is very cool. I've never even heard of that. I need to be not only shooting these. I need to be selling them on our site. Very cool. Thank you so much!
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Re: Ideas on best bug out firearms?

Post by Gunwriter » Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:16 pm

There is no "best" just what is best for you.

A LOT depends upon where you live. Where I live I can see up to 1,500+ yards in many directions. If I step outside, unless I'm shooting birds, the last thing I want is a shotgun. They have inferior capacity, are slow to reload, have greater recoil and are slower between shots, have the range of a handgun when loaded with buckshot and lack precision and penetration. Buckshot and most slugs will not penetrate common Level IIIA body armor. Plus the ammunition is heavy and bulky. Buckshot, at typical hunting distances is also an unimpressive whitetail load.

As previously mentioned, I think what you consider should start with the handgun you carry every day. Something along the lines of a Glock 19/23. Service caliber, modern expanding ammunition, 13+ rounds, yet small enough to easily carry every day concealed. If you like 9x19mm, great, if you prefer .40 S&W fantastic, of if you want .357 SIG, .45 ACP or 10mm knock yourself out. But you need to be able to shoot it well, quickly and accurately. It goes without saying it must be 100% reliable. That's a given if its your CCW.

I have zero use for a self-defense revolver here in the 21st Century. They offer no practical advantages and only disadvantages. I am not nostalgic when it comes to self-protection. The only use I see for a wheelgun is if a .44 Magnum or larger is needed for bear protection. That is not an issue where I live.

Pistol caliber carbines? I have a bunch but they offer little over a pistol when it comes to terminal performance (excluding the .357 Mag and .44 Mags which do get a bump up). While you gain practical accuracy, you do not gain the reach, terminal performance, penetration and exterior ballistics of a true rifle caliber. Plus most pistol calibers are pretty meh for penetrating soft body armor. Yes, you can buy legal off the shelf 9x19mm ammunition which will punch Level IIIA, but it is not common. For certain applications where you need an extremely small overall length for on body bag carry certain pistol caliber carbines can serve a useful purpose. A MP5K PDW clone with a side-folding arm brace for instance. You can carry it neatly inside a messenger bag and it will offer a significantly higher hit probability than a conventional pistol. You can do the same with a Glock and Micro Roni chassis.

If I needed a 'bag gun' where an extremely short overall length is very important I would skip a pistol caliber weapon and move to a SIG Rattler in 300 BLK. It is 16 inches long, weighs around 5 pounds, easy to operate, and will stay on a man-sized target at 300 yards. Supersonic 300 BLK offers a huge step up in performance over pistol calibers. I've been really impressed by it. Drop it in a messenger bag and it disappears until needed.

I will always reach for a long gun over a handgun if given the opportunity. The virtue of the rifle is range, penetration and terminal performance. The ability to shoot through light barriers is a valuable virtue. My choice would be an AR-15. They are easy to work on, parts are widely available, and you can build or buy one in a variety of barrel lengths and calibers. For most purposes a 5.56x45mm would be fine. Team it with modern barrier blind ammunition and call it a day. Barrel length could be from 10.5 to 16 inches. In my case where I live in an area very flat and open I would also consider 6.5mm Grendel and am playing with the new .224 Valkyrie. The Grendel is a fantastic cartridge, easily takes medium size game, offers a substantial step up in performance over 5.56x45mm. Very efficient cartridge which works well at distance, retains velocity/energy well. Both modern hunting and barrier blind loads are available along with inexpensive steel case practice ammunition. Downside is the ammunition weighs and recoils about the same as 7.62x39mm. Another option I am currently exploring is .224 Valkyrie. I've been shooting a LaRue in this new caliber since October. It will feed 90 grain MatchKing loads from the magazine and there is a 90 grain Fusion hunting load. The 90-grain Matchking has a BC of .563 and is a true 1,000+ yard load from a 18 inch AR-15 rifle. Mine is shooting 5 inch groups at 800 yards. Basically it offers all the advantages of a 5.56x45mm AR-15 but delivers a heavier payload with greater retained velocity and energy. Downside is it is brand new to the market, but Federal is doing a good job with it.

.22 Conversion kits. I love .22 LR conversion kits and my farm gun is an AR with a CMMG conversion kit which stays in it full-time. I have an AA conversation kit for a Glock 19/23 frame and have taken small game with it. If you drop a kit into your AR you will need to know the POI change.

I haven't seen sound suppressors mentioned. I would definitely consider one, especially if you are bringing a .22 LR for hunting. I use a SureFire .22 LR can and run a LaRue .30 caliber can on 5.56, 6.5mm Grendel, .224 Valkyrie, 300 BLK and anything else .30 cal and below.

probably too long for most to read but

Glock 19/23
SIG Rattler 300 BLK
AR-15 6.5mm Grendel

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Re: Ideas on best bug out firearms?

Post by woodsghost » Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:49 pm

Just going on record: I did mention suppressors :)


Something I think we need to consider is what we expect a bugout gun to do? Do we honestly expect to engage animals or people at 800 y/m when leaving home due to a fire or tornado or flood or earthquake?

If something knocks out the electoral infrastructure and we spend a few months or ... maybe ... a year recovering, do we really expect the government to cease to exist to the point that we will be engaging mutant ninja bikers at 1000 y/m?

What do we really expect to be doing in a bugout? What do we honestly think we are going to be doing with a gun and what will be legally justified?

As for me, if a flood or tornado hits I'm heading to a secret cabin on a hill and drinking my pee like Bear Grylls taught me to. Screw hotels and McDonald's!

There are situations where I can see engaging at 600-900 y/m would be useful. Those situations look like Iraq and Afghanistan. I just hope that never comes to the US.
*Remember: I'm just a guy on the internet :)
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Re: Ideas on best bug out firearms?

Post by Gunwriter » Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:57 pm

I would expect most self-protection scenarios to be inside 100 yards, with the vast majority at pistol distances.
If faced with a pistol, I would rather have a carbine or a rifle. If having to be discreet, then a very compact SMG size
carbine which can be easily stowed out of sight, would be a very real asset. The penetration of a rifle is an asset, especially
around motor vehicles if you need to penetrate windshields, glass, or body metal. Hence my liking the SIG Rattler with its uber short 5.5 inch barrel when teamed with supersonic 300 BLK.

Certain rifle calibers, such as the Grendel or Valkyrie, perform very well from light handy carbines and short barrel rifles. For example, a 12.5 inch 6.5mm Grendel is very short, quick handling with excellent terminal performance and penetration at these short distances. Despite its short barrel though it will deliver 1,000 ft-lbs at 300 yards and shoots well at 600 yards. While the ability to shoot beyond 100 yards may never be needed, it has the flexibility to deliver it if required. I've shot a 11.5 inch Valkyrie, suppressed, that likewise performed very well, but with a bit less thump. While in most places there is zero need to be able to shoot at any distance, that is not the case in all. Here things are very open and very flat...

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Re: Ideas on best bug out firearms?

Post by ROCK6 » Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:28 am

The variables are vast. For simplicity sake, I would just narrow it down to three or four.

AR15 in 5.56; I'm trained with it, it's plenty accurate and can bring down pretty big hogs and even smaller black bear if needed.

Glock 19; it's what I'm current training with and a good balance between CCW and service pistol. It's the right size to easily have on you at all times.

Ruger 22/45 LITE, suppressed and with an RDS. This is simply a sublime game-getter and you can pack a pretty decent amount of ammo. I prefer this to my AR conversion kit as it's just simpler and the weight savings is pretty negligible. I can also hunt small game while having the carbine handy for bigger game or self-defensive needs.

The only "optional" addition would possibly be a S&W M&P 340; a very lightweight J-Frame .357/.38. Not a necessity, but I like having the option to shoot those two calibers and it's a very solid BUG.

I know locations, terrain, even seasons affect actual visibility and potential ranges for target engagements. Other than hunting, counter-sniper, or suppressive fire to break contact, I can't see to many locations where you can't find cover and maneuver from a distance threat. I don't necessarily need to hit a bullseye at 500-600 meters, but I would want to effectively place accurate suppressive fire if needed for extreme situations. At those distances for "self-defense" it's more about maneuver and tactical decisions.

ROCK6

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Re: Ideas on best bug out firearms?

Post by Asymetryczna » Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:21 am

Whoa. I was just bugging out. Maybe I'll camp for awhile. None of those counter-sniper missions, breaking contact by suppressive fire or low vis, suppressed and silent taking out of the sentries for me. It's ironic how topics about survival are turned to combat so quickly. I don't even know if there is an enemy or who they are
It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see.
Henry David Thoreau

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