Help: Bag/pack options?

Items to keep you alive in the event you must evacuate: discussions of basic Survival Kits commonly called "Bug Out Bags" or "Go Bags"

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zero11010
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Re: Help: Bag/pack options?

Post by zero11010 » Tue May 17, 2016 2:13 pm

I'm a huge fan of the Kelty Redwing 50. It will carry the weight you want to carry just fine. It looks like the bag just got a redesign and I can't speak with personal experience for the newest (2016) version.

Perhaps most importantly the bag weighs 3lbs 5oz empty (newest version is 3lbs 11oz). I've seen a LOT of options that weigh in at or above 5 pounds. I imagine cutting 2 pounds of weight without reducing supplies would be appreciated.

I don't own the set up you have and finding a weight for it seems a little tricky. I see a page (linked below) that says the frame is 3.8lbs and the pack without the frame is 2.8lbs. 6.6lbs total for an empty medium sized backpack seems kinda crazy to me.
Weight taken from here: http://www.georgia-outfitters.com/page84.shtml

The bag is VERY comfortable. It does a great job of actually putting the weight on your hips so your shoulders aren't dealing with the weight.

It has standard backpack features like:
* ventilated shoulders, hip, back panel to help wick moisture
* water bladder compartment with ambidextrous pass through with shoulder strap elastic to keep the mouth piece handy
* trekking pole storage on back of bag
* water bottle compartments on the lower sides that can be reached while the bag is worn
* all of the standard adjustments
* main compartment (with zipped pocket inside), top stash pocket, side pockets (separate from water bottle pockets), rear organizational (admin) pocket.

Some nicer features it has include:
* ability to attach a molle pouch (I use a dump pouch) on the hip belt. (2016 version includes a pocket on each hip belt instead of the molle style loops)
* pass through pocket behind the side pockets that allow something like tent poles, a small rifle or a fishing pole to be carried.
* main compartment will function like both a top loading bag and a panel loading bag.
* 2016 version has an additional stash pocket.
* 2016 version has an adjustable system to fit a variety of different back lengths (this seems to be where the bulk of the extra weight went).



2016 suspension system


2016 pack (he didn't cover the hip pockets)



I'll also throw in that I use the above pack in combination with a Ribz frontpack (not for extra space, but rather for accessibility and functionality). The Ribz was designed to be worn at the same time as a backpacking style backpack. The Ribz is able to function like a daypack. It also works well to store essentials so that even if you're without your backpack you still have basic supplies (I will wear the Ribz pack around camp even after I've taken off the backpack).


Close_enough
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Re: Help: Bag/pack options?

Post by Close_enough » Tue May 17, 2016 3:14 pm

woodsghost wrote:My goal is 60 lbs over 12 miles in 3.5 hours, including any breaks.

But maybe I should throw the ALICE pack to the wind and buy a civi pack off someone local. Maybe civi packs are generally just as good or better for what I want? I just don't have much experience with them.
My $.02
First of all, ditch the mil-surplus gear. It's twice the size, three times the weight, and half as adjustable as its civilian equivalent. The civilian gear isn't going to be as tough, but it will be tough enough and a whole lot more comfortable. Generally speaking, if it's tough enough for 1000+ mile PCT/AT/CDT backpacks, and hauling up K2, it's going to be tough enough for a bug-out.

Second, I've yet to encounter a three day pack that will comfortably handle 60 lbs. At the weight, you will need the suspension system from a good quality week long or expedition length pack. The extra pack weight will be offset by the better suspension system. I have an older Kelty West Coast (80L E-frame) that was good up to 50 lbs. (55 in a pinch). The three day packs I've rented were only good to about 35 lbs.

Lastly, 12 miles in 3.5 hours with 60 lbs. is really pushing it for anything but walking on flat ground. You'll be able to average 3.5 MPH on flat graded dirt, but the moment you start climbing or have to go off trail, expect your average speed to drop below 2 mph. If you're scrambling (Yosemite decimal class 2-3), expect your speed to drop to one mile every 1 1/2 - 2 hours.

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woodsghost
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Re: Help: Bag/pack options?

Post by woodsghost » Wed May 18, 2016 8:40 pm

Asymetryczna wrote: A march of any kind is considered physical training in the military but I never considered it punishment.
The primary purpose is to relocate a unit.

Thank you for the advice and the explanations.
Woodsghost: My goal is 60 lbs over 12 miles in 3.5 hours, including any breaks.
Reasonable. So I reread everything and decided that I may not have helped you at all. It is not mine to reason why you must travel this distance in this time with this weight but it is reasonable to assume that you have a good reason. I have helped plenty of people do it before ;)

The reasons are laid out in some length in these threads:

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=118185
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=118120

The short version: I actually want to travel 20 miles a day, at 2 mph, for 14-21 days, carrying 50 lbs on my back and 20 lbs on my chest and in my arms, and going for 12-14 hours at a stretch (2-4 hours for breaks). So that if the world REALLY goes belly up, I can walk to the homes of friends and relatives. But the "60+ lbs, at 3.5-4 mph, for 12 miles" thing is just to exercise, to get both strength and cardiovascular exercise rolled into one.


....

So. If you must. Whether BigRed’s progressive training or in intervals, First, go do it. ....

I have been setting small goals and meeting them. I have surprised myself with how rapidly I can achieve the next little step and push past it. Soreness is ok, but too much means I take 3-4 days off, recover, and get back at it. I have largely been getting out every other day, and sometimes 2 days in a row if I am feeling frisky....jeez, sounds like my honeymoon......

Now: This thread. I had to go look at my favorite pack to see if it even had a waist strap. Funny, to me, it does. It was hidden behind the frame pad. I do not remember ever using that waist belt and have never made any changes that required a purchase. (Large ALICE with frame. On other packs I have used the belt.).

The buttpack setup someone showed is considered fighting gear by many. It’s on the body or within arm’s reach at all times. The pack should be set up to be jettisoned to fight. ... You'll feel strain and some chaffing perhaps but this is because you don't do it often. There shouldn't be bruises or pain that shuts you down.

Thanks a ton for the advice! I'll have to experiment with the shelf. The one thread I started was due to my concern with jettisoning my pack in a hurry, but was told I would damage my back with carrying 60+ lbs for days on end with no support or method of transferring weight to my hips. It sounds like your method might not meet the magical "30% on the shoulders, 70% on the hips" ratio I read as a recommendation, but it would help achieve some level of transfer.

My experience is that before long you will be saying that you met your goal. This will lead you to think more about footwear.

I started with good footwear long ago. And good socks. I am only now learning how good my choices actually were. But on the flip side, I"m learning now what makes good footwear because I'm actually NEEDING it now.

But first, let me start over. How big are you and what kind of terrain are we talking about?

A) Nebraska, Iowa, Kansas, Missouri..... maybe Illinois, Minnesota, Wisconsin. So "comparatively flat. Woods and fields."
B) 138-39 lbs. 6 ft. Working on getting bigger, but dropped 7 lbs over the last 12 months due to exercise. And I"m a lot stronger now.
zero11010 wrote:I'm a huge fan of the Kelty Redwing 50. It will carry the weight you want to carry just fine. It looks like the bag just got a redesign and I can't speak with personal experience for the newest (2016) version.

Perhaps most importantly the bag weighs 3lbs 5oz empty (newest version is 3lbs 11oz). I've seen a LOT of options that weigh in at or above 5 pounds. I imagine cutting 2 pounds of weight without reducing supplies would be appreciated.

.....

I'll also throw in that I use the above pack in combination with a Ribz frontpack (not for extra space, but rather for accessibility and functionality).

I have heard a lot of good stuff about the Ribz. I'll need to upgrade from the mil-surp some day, and I"m not very versed in "good" and "sturdy" civi packs. I"ll have to come back and start asking around once I"m ready to invest. Also, I"m trying to talk my wife into trying some short backpacking trips. At some point, if she gest into it, she will likely want a nice civi pack rated for 25-35 lbs.
Close_enough wrote: My $.02
First of all, ditch the mil-surplus gear.

Mil-surp seems like the best bang for the buck right now, but like I mentioned above, I know I"ll want to ditch the mil-surp some day. Probably. Unless it ends up working out for me, then "don't fix what ain't broke." But I see myself trading later. Like 3-5 years down the road.

Second, I've yet to encounter a three day pack that will comfortably handle 60 lbs.

I can see that. I"m aiming for 14-21 days.

Lastly, 12 miles in 3.5 hours with 60 lbs. is really pushing it for anything but walking on flat ground. You'll be able to average 3.5 MPH on flat graded dirt, but the moment you start climbing or have to go off trail, expect your average speed to drop below 2 mph. If you're scrambling (Yosemite decimal class 2-3), expect your speed to drop to one mile every 1 1/2 - 2 hours.

I mentioned earlier in this post my "exercise goal" is 12 miles, 3.5 mph, 60+ lbs. My "zombies are afoot" goal is 2 mph, 20 miles, in 12-14 hours.
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modustollens
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Re: Help: Bag/pack options?

Post by modustollens » Wed May 18, 2016 10:05 pm

Lastly, 12 miles in 3.5 hours with 60 lbs. is really pushing it for anything but walking on flat ground. You'll be able to average 3.5 MPH on flat graded dirt, but the moment you start climbing or have to go off trail, expect your average speed to drop below 2 mph. If you're scrambling (Yosemite decimal class 2-3), expect your speed to drop to one mile every 1 1/2 - 2 hours.
I would agree with this. I've gone on a lot of multi-day hikes over 100km in length. Keeping that pace, even when fresh at the start, seems a bit much, even on flat terrain. Add in bush work and the need to make navigation decisions and your rate will go down even more.

Highly doubtful such a pace could be kept up over a period of many days without substantial rest or risk of acute injury. Getting acute tendinitis in the patella or the arches of the feet from sustained stress becomes more likely. Be sure you have some meds and support bandages for that.

Have you read any of Colin Fletcher's books - The 1000 Mile Summer or The Complete Walker? His reports might help you plan for the sort of distances you might be able to make over longer periods.

I have been looking around at trail-capable trundles - maybe one day I will pick one of these up to help me haul my kit in summer when my pulk for winter cannot be used (something akin to this, but not so stupidly expensive http://monowalker.com/shop/index.php/en/).

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Re: Help: Bag/pack options?

Post by ineffableone » Wed May 18, 2016 10:41 pm

I am an INCH pack advocate as I tend to feel anything the pushes me out of my BIL will be longer than 72hrs worth of disaster. I do also suggest looking at carts or other ways to ease the load, because pretty much no matter what humping an INCH pack is going to suck at the end of the day, so anything you can do to ease the load is helpful The Monowalker while nice, is pricey. Dixion is a bit more budget friendly but still $300 range. Game carts can be a good option (which is what I have), or DIY carts. I have seen several DIY monowalkers out there.

Something I had not seen mentioned yet this thread but that I use, is the Ribz front pack. This not only gets gear out of your main pack, but also moves weight to your front helping balance your load. While your not reducing weight your redistributing it so that it is less strain on your body.
Image
There is of course also Hill People front packs and others too. I can't speak to the others, but I really like the Ribz front packs. You can fit a lot in them, you can open them so you get air flow when needed, fits under a main pack, great way to store commonly used items you don't want to have to take your pack off to access, and of course you can leave it on at camp and have all those important high use items at your finger tips for setting up camp.
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modustollens
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Re: Help: Bag/pack options?

Post by modustollens » Wed May 18, 2016 11:30 pm

My friend has a game cart; we used it once when were hauling a crazy amount of gear for making a video - I could fairly easily pull all the gear for both of us, less so up hill; but this strategy is still limited to pretty clean trails.

I was looking at this system once too: http://www.dixonrollerpack.com/

I think this is the one you were referring too? It is not so stupidly expensive.

I have not tried one myself; hauling a lot gear up, and more importantly, down, is starting to wreak havoc on my knees.

I have to go a lot slower than when I was younger; and I always have a pole or two plus bandages for tendons. Why do I have these injuries? Going too far too fast in my younger days with heavy packs.

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Re: Help: Bag/pack options?

Post by ineffableone » Wed May 18, 2016 11:46 pm

modustollens wrote:My friend has a game cart; we used it once when were hauling a crazy amount of gear for making a video - I could fairly easily pull all the gear for both of us, less so up hill; but this strategy is still limited to pretty clean trails.

I was looking at this system once too: http://www.dixonrollerpack.com/

I think this is the one you were referring too? It is not so stupidly expensive.

I have not tried one myself; hauling a lot gear up, and more importantly, down, is starting to wreak havoc on my knees.

I have to go a lot slower than when I was younger; and I always have a pole or two plus bandages for tendons. Why do I have these injuries? Going too far too fast in my younger days with heavy packs.

MT
Yep Dixon roller pack is the one I was talking about, and no $300 is not stupid expensive it isn't exactly cheap either.

On the whole clean trails issue for game carts. I feel it less likely I will be doing a lot of deep woods trails with an INCH. If I am bugging out and on foot, I will likely be following roads, or at least logging roads, rather than hiking trials. At least for most of the trip, since I am not currently located out in a National Forest. If SHTF and I had to bug out on foot, there is a lot of urban suburban and rural before I start hitting trail territory. And this is perfect for making time with a cart. But don't underestimate game carts. Most are designed to be used off trail hauling game animals to a trail and then to your truck. They can handle a lot more than you might expect.
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Re: Help: Bag/pack options?

Post by modustollens » Thu May 19, 2016 1:26 am

ineffableone wrote:
If SHTF and I had to bug out on foot, there is a lot of urban suburban and rural before I start hitting trail territory. And this is perfect for making time with a cart.
This is what we did - we hauled all our gear as far as we could with the cart then cached it in the bush while we marched the rest of the way to the lake. We covered a tonne of distance very quickly - especially downhill :).

I'd really like to try one of those Dixon haulers and see how it handles. It is light enough that it could be mounted on the pack and carried over or through places where it could not be used. I have watched a lot of youtube videos. Most people seemed pleased. I know how well the pulk aids fast movement in winter - so, if this machine is anything like that I suspect it would make for fairly efficient travel.

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Re: Help: Bag/pack options?

Post by RonnyRonin » Sat May 21, 2016 9:29 pm

probably time for another dedicated BOC(art) thread soon (I know I've been itching for one!) but I will say after a lot of armchair research this is the most appealing design to me:
http://www.packwheel.com/index.asp?Id=12
not cheap but easily replicated.
advantages:
1) easily found parts (Mtn bikes)
2) centers weight on wheel (none of the handles)
3) pushed rather then pulled for easier steering
4) good brakes
5) probably easy to make this into a bike trailer
6) very small/light (easy to throw on a roof rack for backup transport)
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woodsghost
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Re: Help: Bag/pack options?

Post by woodsghost » Fri Oct 28, 2016 11:16 pm

Ok, reposting this. Originally posted in the wrong "old thread" of mine. :clownshoes:

Just following up. Been using both my ILBE and ALICE in a serious fashion for ~4 months.

Hiked 3.2 miles today. ~37 lbs on my pack in an ALICE pack.

Hiked 5-5.5 miles 2 days ago, with ~58 lbs, in my ILBE.

Speed was not astounding. Getting back into shape. About 2.5-3 mph.

I have to say I LOVE the ALICE!!!! If I am using the waist belt. Put that between my ribs and hip bone, and let it ride there. The frame clears my shoulders initially and the straps ride like there are load lifters. With time, they do settle down on my shoulders, but the vast majority of the weight sits on my hips. I really think I have a bit shorter torso, so that likely has an effect. Or maybe just slightly on the smaller side of "medium?"

The ILBE has been a learning experience. I did not know what was going on with that pack. Had to get the Small waist belt. The Medium gets buckled so tight the wing tips kiss. Especially on hot days when I sweat out any and all weight I posses. But I have to say: If I"m carrying 60 lbs, I'd rather carry it in the ILBE than the ALICE. But after reading up on backpacking sites I just can't quite seem to get the ILBE shoulder straps right. They seem to ride very heavy on me, no matter where I adjust them. My only solution seems to be to set that waist belt tight and high, and ignore the shoulder pain. It is not unbearable, just constant and noticeable.

It is possible I just need more time with the ILBE to develop a tolerance.

I can't imagine hiking 20+ miles a day with 60 lbs on my back and no waist belt support. I can see why that results in injuries. I can also see why one might run without the waist support if danger were close. It does slow me down.

Will continue to update as I gain experience with these packs.

Also getting a upper body strength routine in, so I will see if that affects anything.
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*Be courteous. Look normal. Be in bed by 10'clock.

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Re: Help: Bag/pack options?

Post by RonnyRonin » Sat Oct 29, 2016 11:18 am

I just dug my stock ILBE out a few days ago to rotate it through for walking duty.

Did you cut the bartack that holds the load lifters down from the top of the frame? Every little bit of frame height helps, you'll gain over an inch this way. The straps are odd, I forgot how hard they can be to adjust for tall guys, when I adjust them to their tallest setting they are too narrow for my neck (skinny though it is) and when I lower them down I have to drop the sternum strap to its lowest adjustment. Sourcing a taller frame is the next step, I currently have strips cut from bamboo flooring in mine (long story) which gives me a 24" frame height instead of the stock 23," you can buy Harper Works stays on ebay (same maker as the stock stays) or you can buy carbon arrows and cut them down. Different belt makes the most difference but anything easy to source costs more then the whole pack.

If you aren't shy, post a profile shot wearing the ILBE with some weight in it.
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Re: Help: Bag/pack options?

Post by moab » Sat Oct 29, 2016 8:45 pm

Check out Gearx.com from time to time. They refer to themselves as the gear exchange. But basically they have great deals on last years packs. Here's the Gregory Z65 for $140 normally I think a close to $300 pack. In hideous red. But it's $140. You can get black in small. But anyway a lot of other large packs to choose from.

http://gearx.com/gregory-z-65-pack

Did you go see your mother yet? You know she misses you. (In your brother/sister/wife/dad's best guilty voice. lol.) That way you can stop by that REI that's on the way and get fitted. And then buy something cheaper on the internet. ;)
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Re: Help: Bag/pack options?

Post by moab » Sat Oct 29, 2016 9:01 pm

ineffableone wrote:I am an INCH pack advocate as I tend to feel anything the pushes me out of my BIL will be longer than 72hrs worth of disaster. I do also suggest looking at carts or other ways to ease the load, because pretty much no matter what humping an INCH pack is going to suck at the end of the day, so anything you can do to ease the load is helpful The Monowalker while nice, is pricey. Dixion is a bit more budget friendly but still $300 range. Game carts can be a good option (which is what I have), or DIY carts. I have seen several DIY monowalkers out there.

Something I had not seen mentioned yet this thread but that I use, is the Ribz front pack. This not only gets gear out of your main pack, but also moves weight to your front helping balance your load. While your not reducing weight your redistributing it so that it is less strain on your body.
Image
There is of course also Hill People front packs and others too. I can't speak to the others, but I really like the Ribz front packs. You can fit a lot in them, you can open them so you get air flow when needed, fits under a main pack, great way to store commonly used items you don't want to have to take your pack off to access, and of course you can leave it on at camp and have all those important high use items at your finger tips for setting up camp.
This is some great advice. I have long considered the Ribz. And bought an HPG kit bag instead. The recon in my all over multicam. Hard to part with giving up a camo pattern. But that discussions for another day.

a lot of good points made above. One thing is I can't fit nearly as much in my HPg as I could in a Ribz. Two different animals.

Also I don't discount the Ribz ability for concealed carry. No. Your not going to win any quick draw competitions. But you can still clip it in there for easy access.

You can just fit so much more into a Ribz. Like rain gear, an extra sweater, clean socks, a poncho. All of which can almost be deployed without even taking your pack off. And it does distribute more weight evenly on your body.

(Remember I bought the HPG. Just playing devils advocate here.) I keep coming back to the Ribz. Where my HPG can only carry a very small amount from each survival category if you will. And maybe a fullsize knife on the outside molle on my recon. With the Ribz you've got all that. Plus more. Which reminds me about the MOLLE version of the Ribz. It was pretty cool. Kind of the best of both worlds. Really hard to find though. As I think they only made them for one year.

Best I could find was this facebook page. Doesn't look like anyone is selling it anymore. Although I didn't look down the entire first page. So you might find one. It's been over a year since I've seen them on sale online.

https://www.facebook.com/Hock-Gift-Shop ... 1049106303

Here's my original thread about it actually. Much more info there. I'd ignore the above link.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=117349
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Re: Help: Bag/pack options?

Post by ineffableone » Sat Oct 29, 2016 10:57 pm

moab wrote:Which reminds me about the MOLLE version of the Ribz. It was pretty cool. Kind of the best of both worlds. Really hard to find though. As I think they only made them for one year.
Yep the Ribz front pack from Maxpedition, I don't think I ever saw any site actually selling them. There was a shot show interview showing it and a few Chinese sites and tactical blogs promoting it, but I never saw it hit the market. Which is too bad as I think it would have done fairly well.

Like you, I like the carry capacity of the Ribz pack, but I did mention the HPG front pack because honestly I like to support all the front packs and some folks might prefer one over the other. So I figured to give at least some info that there are other options besides Ribz. I really hope more choices show up eventually, as I think the front pack idea is great and more options will drive more innovation and choices. Neither Ribz or HPG have come anywhere close to exhausting the possibilities of the front pack concept. I actually have 2 different versions of the Ribz, I like the pocket lay out of the older design and the suspension of the newer one.
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Re: Help: Bag/pack options?

Post by woodsghost » Sun Oct 30, 2016 4:50 pm

moab wrote:
Did you go see your mother yet? You know she misses you. (In your brother/sister/wife/dad's best guilty voice. lol.) That way you can stop by that REI that's on the way and get fitted. And then buy something cheaper on the internet. ;)
Hahaha!!!! You have to warn a man before posting that stuff up! I'll be seeing them this December, for my brother's wedding :D I"ll catch them on the trip out or the trip back.
RonnyRonin wrote:
If you aren't shy, post a profile shot wearing the ILBE with some weight in it.

Let me know if these pics show relevant details, or if I need to take more/different ones. And by the way, I really have to snug down the waist belt. I really have no butt to rest that pack on. I have a few more pics on my photobucket account. Only one is really different. Gotta run here, but will be back later tonight to post more pics if needed.

The pack as a case of water. 20 oz bottles, I believe. So it is not loaded up to the top.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure I have bad posture in these pics. The straighter I stand, the better the pack rides. But no butt shelf means it slips down unless the belt is very tight.

Thanks!!!


Image

Image

Image



.....dang, I swear I"m not that skinny in real life......

.....maybe I am.....
*Remember: I'm just a guy on the internet :)
*Don't go to stupid places with stupid people & do stupid things.
*Be courteous. Look normal. Be in bed by 10'clock.

“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” -Bilbo Baggins.

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RonnyRonin
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Posts: 1650
Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 8:11 pm
Location: Front Range, CO

Re: Help: Bag/pack options?

Post by RonnyRonin » Sun Oct 30, 2016 5:55 pm

Looks like cutting the bartack will make a big difference, to go from negative load lifter angle to positive is a huge step in the right direction. The stock belt is prone to slide down on skinny guys, you gotta have a BOOTY for the belt to want to sit parallel to the floor, for whatever reason Arcteryx made their belts in a very aggressive V shape that will either be much higher on the belt buckle side and lower on the lumbar pad side or not make contact along the bottom edge of the belt if you do manage to get the belt to sit flat.
share your tobacco and your kindling, but never your sauna or your woman.

AK, Glock, Pie.

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