Help me: Bugging out: Rucksack or pack?

Items to keep you alive in the event you must evacuate: discussions of basic Survival Kits commonly called "Bug Out Bags" or "Go Bags"

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Help me: Bugging out: Rucksack or pack?

Post by woodsghost » Mon Mar 21, 2016 9:48 pm

For bugging out...or rather, INCHing.... I am in a bit of a quandary. I want to use a regular pack to carry my gear due to the support provided by a proper waist belt. However, those I know who are former or active military have been recommending a rucksack style pack if I want to be able to react to contact quickly.

For my expected bugout needs:

1) I need to haul up to 70 lbs (31 kg). 50 lbs (23 kg) is my target weight, plus 20 lbs on the rest of my body. However, I may need to haul up to 70 lbs, for 90 lbs total. My weight is about 140 lbs.

2) I need to react rapidly to contact.

3) I need it to be durable.

I know it is possible to haul 90 lbs in a ruck style (no waist support). I have a friend who has done so for years, hauling mortar pieces and mortar ammunition. He is also 210-220 lbs.

I know I can do anything if I start slow and work up to it.

I expect my gear to ride in a motor vehicle if bugging out, or move on a bicycle if INCHing. [If motor vehicles are operable, I"m probably not INCHing]. But I need to be foot mobile as well, and I want to be able to cover 20 miles a day for 20 days.

Part of me wonders if I can compromise: run a pack but get the waist belt out of the way if contact is expected and run it as a ruck.

I like that I can carry 60 lbs for 8 miles without much trouble with a pack, but my "doable" ruck weight is a little under 40 lbs right now. But I just started practicing rucking, so I can get that up before long. My back just hurts right now and I"m feeling whiny.

So let me know what you think: Ruck or pack? And please let me know why.
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Re: Help me: Bugging out: Rucksack or pack?

Post by Maeklos » Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:15 pm

My INCH setup for years was a knock-off made-in-India USGI rucksack and a butt pack that attached to the back of my vest. The ruck held stuff that I typically didn't need to get to right away while the butt pack help my first aid supplies, a poncho, a few other odds and ends that I wanted to keep with me. That meant that if I had to, I could ditch the big pack but I still had everything I needed for immediate survival.

Misfortunately, I can't find any butt packs like the one I've got on USCav (where I got it about 7-8 years ago for $30) or Cheaper than Dirt.

Breaking it down, weight-wise, it was similar to the load you're looking to carry - 50 pounds on my ruck and 20 in my butt pack, as well as what I was carrying. The butt pack also took a bit of the weight from my ruck (it rested a bit on the butt pack), which made it easier to carry.

Just my experience on the matter.
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Re: Help me: Bugging out: Rucksack or pack?

Post by teotwaki » Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:32 pm

iLBE backpacks have removeable hip belts so you could remove and store the belt when necessary.
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Re: Help me: Bugging out: Rucksack or pack?

Post by Halfapint » Tue Mar 22, 2016 12:15 am

I am a die hard pack fan. I've got an older (heavy) Lowe Alpine 90+20 liter backpack. I took my INCH apart however and cannibalized most of the stuff for other bags and to downsize my gear. I was carrying about the same amount you were and I cannot think of doing that with a ruck, it would really stress your shoulders and back a lot. INCH bags really aren't meant for "fast response" unless you mean grabbing it and getting outta Dodge. If you're trying to E&E then you probably are in a bad situation, and made some bad decisions leading up to there.

I've been thinking of building another more along the lines of what ineffableone has. His system has a pack, but also a game cart (tactical wheelbarrow anyone) to haul most of his gear. I've been digging that ever since I saw it at one of the 005 outings.
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Re: Help me: Bugging out: Rucksack or pack?

Post by Woods Walker » Tue Mar 22, 2016 12:35 am

90 lbs of gear weight hiking 20 miles a day for 20 days on foot without stopping with a body weight of 140 lbs is some hard math all things considered. Also all on the shoulders would be a physical disaster. Get a backpack with a good suspension system that puts majority of the weight on the waist belt. This is backpacking 101 IMHO.

Personally I would would consider less weight and or deduced distance goals. I am in ok shape at 219 and would think twice about it. I train very hard.
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Re: Help me: Bugging out: Rucksack or pack?

Post by NamelessStain » Tue Mar 22, 2016 7:28 am

First, I would look into finding lighter options for some of your gear. I would also try to figure out what is needed vs luxury items and remove luxury items. As WW said, that may be a bit much for your frame of 140lbs and the distances you want to travel, but I am not judging your abilities, just offering suggestions.

That being said, definitely a ruck for the weight you are contemplating. You say 20 days at 20 miles, so 400 miles. I assume you are going to a BOL? You could move your luxury items to the BOL and cache them there if needed (with the property owner's permission of course). If you are moving with a group, you will also have to consider the others in your group and can they do 20 miles a day. Are they prepared or are they rolling carry-on luggage? So many factors.

Best of luck.
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Re: Help me: Bugging out: Rucksack or pack?

Post by Evan the Diplomat » Tue Mar 22, 2016 7:47 am

Get a backpack. Otherwise see how far you get with a herniated disk.

I would also recommend reassess your threat matrix. Check with Raptor but I don't think many people had a lot of armed contact hiking their way out of New Orleans after Katrina. Or armed contact following super storm Sandy. Or had to shoot their way out from the volcano that redesigned Monserrat.

Your hypothetical disasters may vary from historical records.

Perhaps you are expecting a Syrian or Rwandan type civil war in your AOR but I'm not seeing it around here.
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Re: Help me: Bugging out: Rucksack or pack?

Post by woodsghost » Tue Mar 22, 2016 8:41 am

Just did the math. Survival gear on body would be 22 lbs.

Winter weight on my back would be 43 lbs.

Summer gear on my back would be 35 lbs.

Weight would be reduced by 1-1.5 lbs a day for 14-21 days. That would be food weight at 2000-3000 calories a day.

[Edit:]

[42000 calories total in the pack. Roughly 20 lbs.]
Last edited by woodsghost on Tue Mar 22, 2016 10:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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*Be courteous. Look normal. Be in bed by 10'clock.

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Re: Help me: Bugging out: Rucksack or pack?

Post by Evan the Diplomat » Tue Mar 22, 2016 9:15 am

woodsghost wrote:Just did the math. Survival gear on body would be 22 lbs.

Winter weight on my back would be 43 lbs.

Summer gear on my back would be 35 lbs.

Weight would be reduced by 1-1.5 lbs a day for 14-21 days. That would be food weight at 2000-3000 calories a day.
Here is a guy who has a three season gear list that is 18 lbs skin out. It include price, weight and where he bought it. It does not include food and water, nor firearms and ammunition so your numbers might not be far off of his.

http://www.lytw8.com/Gear_Lists.html

Don't forget to calculate for water weight. The drinking/cooking water you have to haul, drink and refill every day.
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Help me: Bugging out: Rucksack or pack?

Post by reppans » Tue Mar 22, 2016 9:26 am

woodsghost wrote: I expect my gear to ride in a motor vehicle if bugging out, or move on a bicycle if INCHing. [If motor vehicles are operable, I"m probably not INCHing]. But I need to be foot mobile as well, and I want to be able to cover 20 miles a day for 20 days.

Part of me wonders if I can compromise: run a pack but get the waist belt out of the way if contact is expected and run it as a ruck.
Proper hipbelt is a MUST for any weight bearing loads. Reverse the belt (clip it backwards - around the pack), and strap it tight if you think it'll get the way, but my guess is the extra stability worn w/hipbelt will be an advantage in contact situation, and it takes no extra time to dump the pack, if that's the only option.

With that mileage, I assume you are following the road - for an extra ~7 lbs, consider some wheels. Still allows you to hoof it through the woods (flip upside-down on top, or fold/pack inside). And if you know how to skate, consider covering 40-60 mls per day for the same energy expenditure. Both can be layered on top of your other transport options, dumped as necessary, and still retain the option of hoofing it through woods (albeit extra weight). Make the road bear the weight, not your back, for as many of those miles as possible.

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Re: Help me: Bugging out: Rucksack or pack?

Post by woodsghost » Tue Mar 22, 2016 10:01 am

Threat assessment:

1) If Katrina happens, I'll be in a vehicle. 1000 lbs won't be a problem. Gas, cash, and debit cards, though I need to work on making "personal identification" type stuff transportable.

2) If I am possibly walking 400 miles in America, something has gone wrong. Maybe zombies, maybe bad politics, maybe a meltdown of western civilization.

I can always scale back from a full zombie apocalypse. I can't scale up to it unless I"m already prepared.


Group assessment:

Group not capable of stated goals at this time. Yeah, that limits things, but I want to have the personal capability, even if the group does not. Step 1 is having the personal capability. Step 2 is getting the group on board.
Last edited by woodsghost on Tue Mar 22, 2016 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
*Remember: I'm just a guy on the internet :)
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Re: Help me: Bugging out: Rucksack or pack?

Post by Murph » Tue Mar 22, 2016 10:05 am

woodsghost wrote:Just did the math. Survival gear on body would be 22 lbs.
Winter weight on my back would be 43 lbs.
Summer gear on my back would be 35 lbs.
Weight would be reduced by 1-1.5 lbs a day for 14-21 days. That would be food weight at 2000-3000 calories a day.
So you expect to care anywhere from 57 to 65 pounds of gear depending on the season, and starting off with anywhere between 14 to 31.5 pounds of food...

And let's throw in 2 liters of water, which is about 4.5 pounds.

So, you're looking at carrying roughly 75.5 pounds on the low side, and 101 pounds on the high side...

Deciding between a ruck or a pack is not your problem.
Does your BOB at least have: water, basic tools, fire, food, first-aid kit, and shelter?
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Re: Help me: Bugging out: Rucksack or pack?

Post by woodsghost » Tue Mar 22, 2016 10:13 am

Murph wrote:
woodsghost wrote:Just did the math. Survival gear on body would be 22 lbs.
Winter weight on my back would be 43 lbs.
Summer gear on my back would be 35 lbs.
Weight would be reduced by 1-1.5 lbs a day for 14-21 days. That would be food weight at 2000-3000 calories a day.
So you expect to care anywhere from 57 to 65 pounds of gear depending on the season, and starting off with anywhere between 14 to 31.5 pounds of food...

And let's throw in 2 liters of water, which is about 4.5 pounds.

So, you're looking at carrying roughly 75.5 pounds on the low side, and 101 pounds on the high side...

Deciding between a ruck or a pack is not your problem.
8 lbs of water weight is already calculated into the 57-65 lbs total weight. As is 20 lbs of food. So minus 28 pounds of consumables leaves: 29 to 37 lbs of gear.

Sorry, I was not clear.

However: Worn clothing is not included. So that throws a monkey wrench into things. I'll admit that. :(
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Re: Help me: Bugging out: Rucksack or pack?

Post by Murph » Tue Mar 22, 2016 10:31 am

woodsghost wrote: 8 lbs of water weight is already calculated into the 57-65 lbs total weight. As is 20 lbs of food. So minus 28 pounds of consumables leaves: 29 to 37 lbs of gear.

Sorry, I was not clear.

However: Worn clothing is not included. So that throws a monkey wrench into things. I'll admit that. :(
Your numbers are a bit unclear... But anyways...

Is the possible weight of your ruck / pack factored into any of your calculations?

How many cubic inches / liters / gallons is everything (gear + food + water + extra clothes + etc.) that you plan to have in the ruck / pack?
Does your BOB at least have: water, basic tools, fire, food, first-aid kit, and shelter?
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Re: Help me: Bugging out: Rucksack or pack?

Post by NamelessStain » Tue Mar 22, 2016 11:48 am

woodsghost wrote:
8 lbs of water weight is already calculated into the 57-65 lbs total weight. As is 20 lbs of food. So minus 28 pounds of consumables leaves: 29 to 37 lbs of gear.

Sorry, I was not clear.

However: Worn clothing is not included. So that throws a monkey wrench into things. I'll admit that. :(
Nah, seems you are right on target from my point of view. My INCH is initially built for 10 days to get to BOL#1 and it weighs in at 45# not counting firearms/ammo but including food and water (3liters). Firearms/ammo will be another 20-25# depending on which kit I decide to carry.

I never count the clothes on my back, but that's just me.
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Re: Help me: Bugging out: Rucksack or pack?

Post by woodsghost » Tue Mar 22, 2016 3:05 pm

Murph wrote:[
Your numbers are a bit unclear... But anyways...

Is the possible weight of your ruck / pack factored into any of your calculations?

How many cubic inches / liters / gallons is everything (gear + food + water + extra clothes + etc.) that you plan to have in the ruck / pack?
I just need to post up an INCH thread, but I am working with the ALICE system. I have several Mediums and a Large in traditional configuration, and one Medium in a rough Hellcat configuration (currently minus the sleep system carrier, but I have that too and can add it if desired).

So, Medium ALICE: 2400 cubic inches.
Large ALICE: 3800 cubic inches.
MOLLE sleep system carrier: 1450 cubic inches.

Total possible: 5250 cubic inches.
Total likely: [winter] 3800 cubic inches, [summer] 2400 cubic inches.
(I don't care for most configurations using the sleep system carrier, but might have to try it again)

Weights (pounds):

Pack: 4
Bag: Winter: 10
Bag: Summer: 2
Sleeping pad, inflatable: 2
Sleeping pad, closed cell: not included. Not carried. Thinking about adding.
Stove: 1
Pot: 1
Rice: 9
Lentils: 9
Oil: 2.5
Extra clothing: 2-3 (forgot to add above)
Ammo: 2.25
Misc (Brillo pad, cordage, water filter, fire starters, etc): ~1.5. Maybe just 1 pound.
Tarp: 1
Water: 2-4

On body:
Rifle: 7.5
Mags: .5(?)x4=2
Ammo: 4.5
Knife: 1.5
Water: 2
Tactical Nylon: 2
Misc (pocket lint, belly button brush, etc): ~.5

I got my ammo mixed up between the "on body" and "in pack" weights I listed earlier.

Clothing for current weather: Not listed.

So that is roughly where I am for weights and cubic inches. I"ve put it all in an ALICE Medium for summer/3 season use. Winter gear, I prefer the ALICE Large due to the sleeping bag size.

Thanks for all the answers so far!

And here is an article that is heavily influencing me right now:

http://masondixontactical.wordpress.com ... d-rucking/
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Re: Help me: Bugging out: Rucksack or pack?

Post by Maeklos » Tue Mar 22, 2016 5:50 pm

Looking over your listed items, got a few questions.

1) Stove/oil. Is the oil for cooking, for burning in your stove, or what? Also, do you need a stove? Will a fire work just as well for you, or do you have a remarkable lack of wood for burning in your area? If you can cut these and get used to cooking over a fire, that's 3.5 pounds you save.

2) Lentils. I love lentils, they're good in stews and they're awesome camp food. But you might be better off bringing red beans instead, since rice + beans = a complete protein. Not sure if rice and lentils work as well together. Also, if you're looking to push 20 days, do you have foraging knowledge? You've got food to keep you going, but you'll start running low on vitamins and minerals from a diet consisting entirely of rice and lentils (or beans). I'd throw some dietary supplements in there. Potassium is going to be a huge one, especially pushing 20 miles a day for 20 days. Your muscles will wind up hating you if they don't straight-up give out.

3) Weight. Again, you're 140 pounds. Maximal weight you should carry is 50% of your body weight. More than that and your body just won't end up hating you - you might end up getting arthritis in your neck, back, and shoulders, same as a lot of soldiers coming back these days are winding up with from carrying heavy loads for long periods. No sense giving yourself potentially crippling long-term injury. I'd look back over the gear you're carrying again and compare it to what you can forage while on the move and/or make yourself as you need it.

With all that being said, I'd recommend opting for a modular system - one that definitely includes a pack with a belt, given your weight and what you want to carry. I got by with 50 pounds in a ruck, but I'm 6'2" and 220. 1/4 of your weight is about all you want hanging from your shoulders. With a modular system, you can have the core supplies you'll need in the pack itself, then additional attachments that can carry winter gear, ammo, etc. Then you'll have the basic essentials to get from Point A to Point B and can adjust as needed.

Are there zombies? Did North Korea launch an aerial invasion? Is it snowing? Raining fire? Are you going to have to go by boat? All these questions can be answered immediately prior to bugging out and can therefore be added on to what you carry, rather than including them in your standard kit.
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Re: Help me: Bugging out: Rucksack or pack?

Post by RonnyRonin » Tue Mar 22, 2016 8:57 pm

I'll admit I just skimmed the thread for now, but is there really a single earthly reason to go with a backpack without a true frame and load carrying hip belt? The only people I've heard argue for that either:
A) hate themselves
B) are in the military and have weird doctrine forced upon them (and hate themselves)
C) are Ultra-lighters trying to drop that last 3 oz to get their baseweight under their arbitrary goal (and hate themselves)

Being able to carry the needed supplies without crippling short term and debilitating long term consequences seems like it should be a higher priority then being able to react to an ambush, and even then practice will make up for 90% of the time difference of getting out of a belt or beltless setup.

to quote a trite cliche: Spend your money on your pack, boots and sleeping bag, you will either be wearing one or in the other.
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Re: Help me: Bugging out: Rucksack or pack?

Post by RonnyRonin » Tue Mar 22, 2016 11:05 pm

looking more closely, is rice and lentils really the best way to carry your foot-mobile calories? Not just from a weight perspective but also just in that they take a lot of time and fuel to prepare and if you really are worried about contact maybe something that is faster to prepare would also increase your survivability?

Your gear list doesn't look too crazy or redundant, I think there are just a few heavy things that are bringing the numbers up. 10lbs should be your whole sleep/shelter system, not your sleeping bag, I'd definitely recommend upgrading that along with the backpack, I'm assuming MSS?

I definitely hear you on the "you can't scale up after the fact, but you can always scale down." I too have a pretty heavy complete BOB weight incase I just need to make it a short distance in a permissive environment, in which case 60-70lbs is totally doable terrain permitting. But if distance, hostile natives or terrain is a factor I don't think much over 30lbs is sustainable for most people.

As you say, when wheels are involved anything goes, but if you really want a foot-mobile option sacrifices must be made; that usually means either spending money or preparing to be supremely uncomfortable. I'm in the camp that unless wheels or pack animals are involved its probably not an INCH, just a really really really long range BOB. I think 50lbs isn't an unrealistic weight goal, and 20 miles a day isn't unrealistic either, but the two combined are optimistic.
Lots of guys will tell stories about carrying X amount of weight for this trip or that trip (X equalling the length in inches of the fish they once caught) and being "fine" but look at the drop out rates for Thru-hikers carrying comparatively tiny loads, no small number from injury. Even those that physically condition themselves and are quite disciplined with their pack weights can develop some nasty repetitive strain injuries just from walking much more then they ever have before.
Hunters in particular deal with high weights for short periods, and might scoff at 90lb backpacks, but most of course overestimate both their pack weight and their milage. My suspicion is that just sucking it up has about a two-day window of effectiveness.


I've read most of MDTs rucking articles (as well as most of the other "small unit tactics" bloggers articles on the subject) and while a useful reference, I think it is good to balance it out with other equally myopic opinions from other cultures, such as the SUL guys, backcountry hunters, and extreme expeditioners. Blending all these extremes into something that may or may not be useful to our mostly hypothetical goals.
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Re: Help me: Bugging out: Rucksack or pack?

Post by Evan the Diplomat » Tue Mar 22, 2016 11:47 pm

A 10 pound sleeping bag? Try this zero degree bag. OBTW there are lighter, down bags but they are about twice the price.

https://www.rei.com/product/896811/moun ... e_PLA_GOOG
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Re: Help me: Bugging out: Rucksack or pack?

Post by moab » Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:33 pm

I've spent years on my INCH. And it's evolved far beyond my own initial INCH post.

I don't know what the big difference is between a waist belt and not a waist belt in a fire fight. With the exception of not being able to use a hip belt in addition to your pack to carry things like a side arm etc. Most INCH systems I've seen have incorporated other carrying options. Like a chest rig for your side arm and extra items. Hill People Gear kit bags are great for this and can be worn with a pack. I also carry a USGI fannypack. They are quite large. And ride fine under a packs waist belt. I carry my emergency items in mine. So that if I'm ever separated from my pack I can still survive. Same with my HPG kit bag.

Secondly your going to kill yourself without a pack waist belt. All that weight has to ride on your hips. Not your shoulders. Which is why you should get fitted for a sized pack also. (I should mention I didn't know that "rucksack" meant no waist belt. The US Army MOLLE II LArge Rucksack has a waist belt. And could easily carry what you need. But it's heavy at 10lbs.) I carry an Arcteryx Khyber 80L backpack. It has a waist belt and comes in at 5lbs.

Your sleeping bag should not weigh more than 5lbs. MSS is not the bag for what your trying to do. Kelty has great 0F down bags with Dridown technology. And come in at 5lbs.

You should peruse the various INCH posts gear lists. MAke a master list with weights. And then start culling items you don't need. And switching items out with lighter weight options that you think will still work long term.

I'd look for a pack with a waist belt in the 80L/5lb range. But like I said above. Weigh and list all your stuff out first. Or your going to end up with a bunch of gear you end up swapping out. Or a pack that is the wrong size.

I took a lot of knowledge from the ultralight community. And from long distance trekkers like Andrew Skurka.

Also if you sort of know your route or maybe a couple routes. You could start planning on making caches. For resupply. Things like additional shoes, food, water, ammo etc. etc.

But in final answer - get a waist belt. Otherwise you might as well be carrying a duffel bag. And both would kill your back and body. You wouldn't get far and not fast.

But what is the big advantage of no waist belt in a fire fight? Even the Alice has a waist belt. What difference does it make? And even if it does. It takes a bout a second to unhook one.

Here's a sample INCH bag gear list. I have no idea what the weight is. Without weapons and ammo. I'm shooting for 50lbs. It looks like a long list. But a lot of it is small things or things on my thumb drive. I might have a couple lbs of excess stuff in first aid or tools. But they weigh little. And you can always drop or stash things along the way if it just gets to be to much. But this is a good list to start from for yourself. Cull from it. Add to it. Swap things out. Good place to start. I'd suggest a spread sheet with weights:

FOOD:
1lb Beef jerky
6-9 Mountain House Meals – As many as will fit comfortably.
24pk - Peach iced tea
/Fruit punch Crystal Lite
2 bags - Garlic salt and Johnnys seasoning
1lb Instant coffee
Splenda
Dried creamer
Dried squid for bait and eating
40pk - Trader Joe's Black Mango Tea

SHELTER:
Kelty Cosmic Down 0F sleeping bag
Poncho usgi
Klymit skeleton coyote x-frame pad or Big Agnes full size pad.
Marmot Trailight 2P tent
Emergency Thermal Blanket

COMMUNICATION:
CountyComm am/fm shortwave radio that runs 150 hours on one AA. http://countycomm.com/gp4light.html
2 - Midland GXT1050VP4 2 way camo frs/gmrs radios - headsets for both - runs off rechargable AA's.
2 emergency whistle Fox 40

HYGEINE/HEALTH/WELFARE:
Small Powder
Baking soda in film canister - as backup Toothpaste and acid med
(I have acid reflux - BADLY)
1 toothbrush
Bug spray deet
Bag of tobacco and rolling papers and as many packs of cigarettes as I can carry. (I know. Terrible.)
Nail clippers
5 Zip lock freezer bags
1 Roll toilet paper
1 Bottle camp soap Dr. Bronners

FIRE:
1 4x4 ziplock with dryer lint and vaseline balls
2 Packs Waterproof Matches
3 Bic Lighters
2 fire steel - misch steel
1 zippo lighter

TOOLS:
Lexan full size fork and spoon
Czech Mess kit (Only outside container. Ditched the interior pot for weight savings.)
Wetstone http://www.ragweedforge.com/SharpeningCatalog.html
Handcuff key
Fishing gear - 50lb test braided line, hooks, small & medium diamond jigs, dried squid
12 speed hooks
1 Casio waterproof wristwatch - with compass, thermometer, etc.
Watch cover
1 pair of small EMT shears
1 Large sewing needle
12 AA NIMH rechargable batteries
Instapark 10 5w solar charger
21" Sven saw
Small compact binos
Duct tape - heavy weight and light weight for making bandages. (How much is to much? I have an inch of heavy weight wrapped around a credit card. And about 1/2 inch of lightweight wrapped around a credit card.)
Pad of paper waterproof
Carpenters pencil
Leatherman Multi-tool
P51 can opener
200ft 550 Paracord
300ft(?) 50lb test braided fishing line.
6 Plastic Zip Ties
6 Ranger Bands
1 Sharpie

TRAPPING:
12 - Professional grade snares.
3 - Conibear traps.
100ft Snare wire.
3 - Foothold traps.
(This is all depending on weight. May get culled down some.)

WEAPONS:
(Haven't decided on how much of each ammo to take exactly. It's going to depend on weight.)
Broken shell extractor
Gas port reamer
Glock 357 with holster
AK47
3 AK mags
200rds 7.62
50 rounds 357
ESEE 5 survival knife/kydex sheath (Switching this out for a Vulture Cholera some day soon.)
Mora OD Green with 4 inch blade. Kydex sheath
Tactical rifle sling
Headlamp Ultrafire UF-H2 B Head light - runs 11 hours on one AA.
Foam ear plugs
Gun cleaning kit

PACK & HARNESS:
HPG conceal carry chest pouch. (Contains handgun/ammo/gps/flashlight/maps)
Arcteryx Khyber 80 backpack
1 Multicam fanny pack as EDC (Contains multiples of fire/water/cordiage/fak/fishing kit/poncho/headlamp/emergency blanket/snare wire/mora knife)
Misc. Silnylon pouches to keep clothing and sleeping bag dry

WATER:
38oz SS Nalgene with aluminum canteen cup
1 Platypus water bag 2L (This is only for backup. Only used in emergency should I lose other water containers. Kept in my chest rig or my fanny pack.)
Camelback water 3L
Water Purification Tablets

ELECTRICAL:
3 micro photon II lights with on/off switch.
12 AA Rechargeable Batteries
1 Fenix E21 flashlight - doubles as weapon light
2 Extra bulbs for flashlights
1 Samsung Galaxy S4 cellphone, 64gb micro SD card, and extra battery

CLOTHING:
1 pair Columbia hiking pants.
(Would gladly trade these for something lightweight in multicam.)
1 pair Columbia hiking shorts. (Would gladly trade these for something lightweight in multicam.)
1 synthetic Columbia hiking shirts.
(Would gladly trade these for something lightweight in multicam.)
1 Multicam Propper hunting shirt
1 Polarfleece Columbia jacket (Would gladly trade this for something in multicam or camo.)
1 UK USGI jacket multicam goretex
1 Super lightweight down jacket with hood. This thing is a heater. Maybe weighs 8oz? Very packable.
1 Merrel Moab Ventilator boots or Danner sage green waterproof combat boots.
1 Mosquito hood
1 Sythetic baseball cap.
1 5.11 fleece cap
1 Perscription sunglasses.
1 Perscription glasses.
1 Bottom and Top Merino wool base layer.
1 set of Gloves leather tactical shooting style
4 Pairs of Wool Socks
4 pairs of lightweight synthetic socks
1 multicam neck gaitor
1 OD Green shamagh (doubles as towel)


NAVIGATION:
2 Compasses - Suunto and Silva
3 button compasses

Topographical Map
The map should include;
• Daily Traveled Work Route; your normal route to work
• Primary Alternate Roads (paved); your alternate vehicle travel route
• Secondary Roads (gravel or dirt); a back-up vehicle travel route
• TOPO map MGRS/UTM for compass or GPS use (terrain and waterways); a planned foot travel route
• Train Tracks (bridges across the rivers); for alternate foot travel
• River and Streams (covert); for foot travel
• Water Crossing Plans(boat and bridge locations); alternate ways to cross the water
• Water Drainage Canals (easier foot travel); for foot travel
• Storm Water Drainage Systems (covert travel); for foot travel
• Bus and Taxi Schedules; alternate travel
• Cache and Hold-up Locations; your preplanned locations
• Possible Supply Locations; hardware, outdoor and gun stores

Streetwise waterproof maps of Los Angeles, CA, OR & WA
Handheld GPS Garmin Etrex 20

BOOKS:
US ARMY Special Forces Medical Handbook (may ditch this for weight and just keep it on the thumbdrive)

WALLET:
Emergency cash (One to two grand.) Stashed throughout pack and self. Small bills.
Credit cards
ID
Insurance card
Important numbers - phones, addresses etc.
State and Federal licenses
Bank account numbers
Medication list

FIRST AID KIT:
1 quickclot or celox (i bought the celox it was cheaper)
1 Roll of Kerlix
1 credit card of 3 inch duct tape
1 israeli bandage
1 Kravat/Triangular bandage
1 small EMT-sheers
2 burn-jel
6 month prescription meds
1 Bug Spray
2-5x5 Mole Skin
10 Cough Drops
Triple antibiotic cream
100 Benadryl
100 Imodium AD
(These next three are for use and trade. Weighs a lot less than gold and worth a lot more.)
200 800mg ibuprofen (for use and trade)
500+ prescription pain reliever (for use and trade)
600 antibiotics (for use and trade)
1 camp tweezers
100 pill metamucil
2 large safety pins
3 Suture kits

8GB THUMB DRIVE:

-copies of id, med records, prescriptions, photos, survival guides, vital documents, cash, check books, backup files, insurance documents, birth certificate, passport, etc. If we had to leave the house and never return, this is a starting place to get our business going again and access our financial accounts. The envelope on the outside is a card that has a list of other things to grab on the way out. This includes the backup hard drives. pictures, favorite web sites, email addresses, addresses, phone number list, and scanned copies of personal documents. Document copies included are; house deed, vehicle titles, gun receipts, birth certificate, ID etc..

Important Documents Inventory:
Birth Certificates
Drivers License/Permit
Weapons Registration
Hunting/Fishing License
Concealed Carry Permit
Car Registration
Car Insurance
Medical Insurance
Military ID/ID Tags
Credit Cards
Training Certificates
Bank Information
Marriage License
Marriage Certificate
Social Security Cards
Military Orders
In Case of Emergency Contacts

I've also begun collecting every kind of military or free information on the net (pdf's) concerning everything survival and self sustained living.

Encrypted with Truecrypt
Last edited by moab on Wed Mar 23, 2016 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Ideas are more dangerous than guns. We don't let our people have guns. Why would we let them have ideas?" Josef Stalin

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ManInBlack316
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Re: Help me: Bugging out: Rucksack or pack?

Post by ManInBlack316 » Wed Mar 23, 2016 4:07 pm

I have no experience with building INCH bags, but I think the thing against waist belts on bags when you could "get caught in an ambush" is that buckles can get stuck. I've personally witnessed this with the LBV vest in the army, get some dirt in that buckle and it's not gonna get unstuck quick.
I think moab has some good advice with planning caches, if you do get ambushed and successfully break contact or stop the attackers but you dropped your pack, you're SOL in terms of that bag now without some kind of cache.

If you're willing to drop it, why are you carrying it in the first place? :clownshoes:

Edit: Not discounting the use of a waist belt, just giving an example on why some sources may be so against them.

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woodsghost
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Re: Help me: Bugging out: Rucksack or pack?

Post by woodsghost » Wed Mar 23, 2016 7:18 pm

WOW there is a lot to digest in this thread! Thank you! Every one of you. Thank you.

There is so much here that it will take me a while to respond to it all. There is a lot which challenges what I have been reading, and a lot which I feel puts some of the advice I have seen into some sort of perspective.

Waist & hip belts: Yes, the ALICE system has a waist belt. Everybody I know, whom I have asked about the topic, AND who was/are a combat MOS, has recommended against using the waist or hip belts on packs. I have been told to cut them off, or tuck them back, or wrap them around the back of the pack to get them out of the way. This has consistently been recommended due to possibility of contact and need for rapid reaction. Reading the same advice online pushed me hard in that direction. Y'all have thrown some damp on that fire, and I really appreciate that.

I appreciate that I can come here and be challenged with both deep thought and a lot of personal experience.

I"ll add responses to a lot of good points and questions. I was wanting to just deal with "Step 1: choose a pack style" and I have been pushed into Steps 2, 3, and some of 4. Thanks :clap:

Also, my choices are limited by a very tight budget right now. But we all face budgets smaller than we would prefer, so I"ll deal with it. But work is picking up so maybe I"ll be able to get some better, *lighter,* gear in the next 6 months? Time will tell.

[And yes, I'm using an MSS, minus the bivy. I have a tarp which is lighter, more versatile, & just as effective.]




Responses: Questions are not exact quotes, but rather I am trying answer the "spirit" of the question.


Q1) Are lentils actually beans? Google says:

A1.1)
Lentils are legumes along with other types of beans. They grow in pods that contain either one or two lentil seeds that are round, oval or heart-shaped disks and are oftentimes smaller than the tip of a pencil eraser.
A1.2) So... they sound like beans to me?

A1.3) By "lentils," I mean I have packages of brown lentils, red lentils, and peas. I figure I can mix it up and have some variety.


Q2) Are lentils the best source for foot mobile calories?

A2.1) I have calculated my daily calorie, protein, fiber, and carbohydrate needs. I wanted a food mix that gave me 100% of my needs at 2000 calories and weighed under 1 pound. I have a spread sheet and ran a lot of foods. The best combo I found was 7 ounces of long grain rice, 7 ounces of red lentils, and 2 ounces of oil (olive, sun flower, vegetable, canola, whatever). This yields 96% of calories, 99.5% of carbs, 118% of protein needs (75.5 g protein total per day, a decent target for active folks 140-200 lbs), and 111% of daily fiber. I might switch to coconut oil before long. I also need to add salt to meet daily sodium needs. This system allows easy scaling from 2000 cal a day, up to 3000 or more cal a day, which I think is a more realistic "zombie apocalypses" caloric need.

A2.2) I like rice and lentils because they are quicker to cook than most other dry good options out there. About 20 minuets of boiling should have them about done. I need to experiment more with this, but they should finish close enough to each other that I can treat them as one unit when cooking (not using instant rice). While this would require up to 1 hour to fix meals if cooking fresh each day, I suspect I can make up one pot of food in the morning and just eat it as I go along. I doubt the food would spoil in 8-10 hours.

A2.3) Well, rice and lentils are a bit bland. I"m thinking I need to add spam and peanut butter to the mix and figure out a 3 day rotating menu.

PS: Vitamins are part of the "miscellaneous" category, but I do need to figure out potassium. Thanks!!!!And I do have foraging skills, but mostly leafy plants. I need to beef up on caloric plants, like roots and nuts/seeds.


Q3) Oil? What for?

A3) Food, to add calories.


Q4) What kind of stove?

A4) Wood gasifying stove. Trying to keep fuel weight low.

Ok. More to follow.
*Remember: I'm just a guy on the internet :)
*Don't go to stupid places with stupid people & do stupid things.
*Be courteous. Look normal. Be in bed by 10'clock.

“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” -Bilbo Baggins.

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woodsghost
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Re: Help me: Bugging out: Rucksack or pack?

Post by woodsghost » Fri Oct 28, 2016 10:32 pm

Just following up. Been using both my ILBE and ALICE in a serious fashion for ~4 months.

Hiked 3.2 miles today. ~37 lbs on my pack in an ALICE pack.

Hiked 5-5.5 miles 2 days ago, with ~58 lbs, in my ILBE.

Speed was not astounding. Getting back into shape. About 2.5-3 mph.

I have to say I LOVE the ALICE!!!! If I am using the waist belt. Put that between my ribs and hip bone, and let it ride there. The frame clears my shoulders initially and the straps ride like there are load lifters. With time, they do settle down on my shoulders, but the vast majority of the weight sits on my hips. I really think I have a bit shorter torso, so that likely has an effect. Or maybe just slightly on the smaller side of "medium?"

The ILBE has been a learning experience. I did not know what was going on with that pack. Had to get the Small waist belt. The Medium gets buckled so tight the wing tips kiss. Especially on hot days when I sweat out any and all weight I posses. But I have to say: If I"m carrying 60 lbs, I'd rather carry it in the ILBE than the ALICE. But after reading up on backpacking sites I just can't quite seem to get the ILBE shoulder straps right. They seem to ride very heavy on me, no matter where I adjust them. My only solution seems to be to set that waist belt tight and high, and ignore the shoulder pain. It is not unbearable, just constant and noticeable.

It is possible I just need more time with the ILBE to develop a tolerance.

I can't imagine hiking 20+ miles a day with 60 lbs on my back and no waist belt support. I can see why that results in injuries. I can also see why one might run without the waist support if danger were close. It does slow me down.

Will continue to update as I gain experience with these packs.

Also getting a upper body strength routine in, so I will see if that affects anything.
*Remember: I'm just a guy on the internet :)
*Don't go to stupid places with stupid people & do stupid things.
*Be courteous. Look normal. Be in bed by 10'clock.

“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” -Bilbo Baggins.

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