Vendors to avoid. Kaweah River Forge, gear2survive

Items to keep you alive in the event you must evacuate: discussions of basic Survival Kits commonly called "Bug Out Bags" or "Go Bags"

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Vendors to avoid. Kaweah River Forge, gear2survive

Post by JohnE » Tue Feb 24, 2015 2:45 pm

Do a Google search on either to read the particulars. In a nutshell, both of these companies have ongoing issues with taking money and failing to deliver items paid for.

You can read about gear2survive on Bladeforums and the ongoing saga about Kaweah on the BushcraftUSA forum.

Good lessons can be learned from both, never pay in advance for a knife and don't wait too long before taking action against thieves and liars.
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Re: Vendors to avoid. Kaweah River Forge, gear2survive

Post by Woods Walker » Wed Feb 25, 2015 12:59 am

JohnE wrote:Do a Google search on either to read the particulars. In a nutshell, both of these companies have ongoing issues with taking money and failing to deliver items paid for.

You can read about gear2survive on Bladeforums and the ongoing saga about Kaweah on the BushcraftUSA forum.

Good lessons can be learned from both, never pay in advance for a knife and don't wait too long before taking action against thieves and liars.
I have read about some of these issues. Don't have any first hand dealings with those mentioned so won't comment on specific situations. I have never paid in advance for a custom knife.
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Re: Vendors to avoid. Kaweah River Forge, gear2survive

Post by Blackdog » Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:22 am

The knife issue is easy to understand. The bushcraft forum is if nothing else a effective merchandizing platform, just go to the portal and see how many posts are vender or vender fanboy generated. The guy made what looks to be a nice product, got over run and didn't handle the demand or business end of this too well. What I don't get is the number of people who paid in full up front. I too have never payed full cost up front for a custom knife and have never been stiffed or disappointed.
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Re: Vendors to avoid. Kaweah River Forge, gear2survive

Post by JohnE » Wed Feb 25, 2015 12:26 pm

Interestingly enough, after a recent number of complete shut downs, the Bushcraft forums are all marked "private" now. Except of course for the ones paid for by vendors.

If you're not a member you can no longer read anything but the vendor sub forums.

I've ordered several knives from makers, most notably from Rod Garcia of Skookum Bushtool fame and Lynne Canterbury, neither of them would accept any payment in advance even when offered. The various knives arrived when promised for the amount originally quoted and I now count the makers as friends. The guys who take payment in advance are using the funds generated by deposits to pay for old orders, when they even bother to complete an order at all. And their fanboys just keep sending them money...
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Re: Vendors to avoid. Kaweah River Forge, gear2survive

Post by JohnE » Wed Feb 25, 2015 12:34 pm

Blackdog wrote:The knife issue is easy to understand. The bushcraft forum is if nothing else a effective merchandizing platform, just go to the portal and see how many posts are vender or vender fanboy generated. The guy made what looks to be a nice product, got over run and didn't handle the demand or business end of this too well. What I don't get is the number of people who paid in full up front. I too have never payed full cost up front for a custom knife and have never been stiffed or disappointed.

I'm curious what you mean when you say " the knife issue is easy to understand"?
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Re: Vendors to avoid. Kaweah River Forge, gear2survive

Post by Woods Walker » Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:07 am

Blackdog wrote:The knife issue is easy to understand. The bushcraft forum is if nothing else a effective merchandizing platform, just go to the portal and see how many posts are vender or vender fanboy generated. The guy made what looks to be a nice product, got over run and didn't handle the demand or business end of this too well. What I don't get is the number of people who paid in full up front. I too have never payed full cost up front for a custom knife and have never been stiffed or disappointed.
I read a public statement in which he seemingly insulted his customers who expressed their concerns. Wow! I hope everything works out for all involved and this was a learning experience for the maker.
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Re: Vendors to avoid. Kaweah River Forge, gear2survive

Post by dunamis » Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:50 pm

This is unrelated to the exact subject matter in this thread, but similar in regard to how I accept payment for the products I manufacture and retail. I accept payment up front because the items I offer have customizable features. If business is slow, sometimes I will produce some stock inventory of the more popular items, but I generally like to use this time for product development and research.

I have never bought a custom knife, nor do I know anything about the companies mentioned; but, in the year or more I've been in business I have received zero complaints from any of my customers regarding quality or service. And have had a number of repeat customers.

The money I receive as payment stays in my account until the product is delivered to the customer and the satisfaction of that customer is verified (as much as I'm able to do so, not every customer wants to chat it up.) Just something I thought I'd throw out there! While this thread seems to be focused on knife makers (not what I do), not every company who takes payment up front is working some sort of scam!

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Re: Vendors to avoid. Kaweah River Forge, gear2survive

Post by Blackdog » Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:14 pm

JohnE wrote:
Blackdog wrote:The knife issue is easy to understand. The bushcraft forum is if nothing else a effective merchandizing platform, just go to the portal and see how many posts are vender or vender fanboy generated. The guy made what looks to be a nice product, got over run and didn't handle the demand or business end of this too well. What I don't get is the number of people who paid in full up front. I too have never payed full cost up front for a custom knife and have never been stiffed or disappointed.

I'm curious what you mean when you say " the knife issue is easy to understand"?
I can understand a custom knife maker being swamped by a sizable increase of orders. Less understandable is bad communications from the maker, poor business practices or not calling time out on orders.
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Re: Vendors to avoid. Kaweah River Forge, gear2survive

Post by Woods Walker » Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:16 pm

dunamis wrote:This is unrelated to the exact subject matter in this thread, but similar in regard to how I accept payment for the products I manufacture and retail. I accept payment up front because the items I offer have customizable features. If business is slow, sometimes I will produce some stock inventory of the more popular items, but I generally like to use this time for product development and research.

I have never bought a custom knife, nor do I know anything about the companies mentioned; but, in the year or more I've been in business I have received zero complaints from any of my customers regarding quality or service. And have had a number of repeat customers.

The money I receive as payment stays in my account until the product is delivered to the customer and the satisfaction of that customer is verified (as much as I'm able to do so, not every customer wants to chat it up.) Just something I thought I'd throw out there! While this thread seems to be focused on knife makers (not what I do), not every company who takes payment up front is working some sort of scam!
That's true. The problem when it comes to some custom knife makers is the time frame. We are talking about potentially many months or even years which is less common in your industry. For example I ordered a knife from MP knives from NY. It took almost a year to get the knife. I didn't pay up front nor did the maker ask. I paid when the job was done and was happy with the outcome. Few people would wait a year for their backpack or pocket to be done. It's a different situation IMO.
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Re: Vendors to avoid. Kaweah River Forge, gear2survive

Post by dunamis » Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:26 pm

Woods Walker wrote:
dunamis wrote:This is unrelated to the exact subject matter in this thread, but similar in regard to how I accept payment for the products I manufacture and retail. I accept payment up front because the items I offer have customizable features. If business is slow, sometimes I will produce some stock inventory of the more popular items, but I generally like to use this time for product development and research.

I have never bought a custom knife, nor do I know anything about the companies mentioned; but, in the year or more I've been in business I have received zero complaints from any of my customers regarding quality or service. And have had a number of repeat customers.

The money I receive as payment stays in my account until the product is delivered to the customer and the satisfaction of that customer is verified (as much as I'm able to do so, not every customer wants to chat it up.) Just something I thought I'd throw out there! While this thread seems to be focused on knife makers (not what I do), not every company who takes payment up front is working some sort of scam!
That's true. The problem when it comes to some custom knife makers is the time frame. We are talking about potentially many months or even years which is less common in your industry. For example I ordered a knife from MP knives from NY. It took almost a year to get the knife. I didn't pay up front nor did the maker ask. I paid when the job was done and was happy with the outcome. Few people would wait a year for their backpack or pocket to be done. It's a different situation IMO.
I think the longest anyone has had to wait for me to complete an order is about two weeks for a custom pack. I generally get orders placed through my site finished in a week or less. Of course, it would be nice if I were busy enough that it would take me a little longer :wink: There is a manufacturer in the area where I could go to have runs done if the demand ever justifies it.

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Re: Vendors to avoid. Kaweah River Forge, gear2survive

Post by Woods Walker » Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:33 pm

dunamis wrote:
Woods Walker wrote:
dunamis wrote:This is unrelated to the exact subject matter in this thread, but similar in regard to how I accept payment for the products I manufacture and retail. I accept payment up front because the items I offer have customizable features. If business is slow, sometimes I will produce some stock inventory of the more popular items, but I generally like to use this time for product development and research.

I have never bought a custom knife, nor do I know anything about the companies mentioned; but, in the year or more I've been in business I have received zero complaints from any of my customers regarding quality or service. And have had a number of repeat customers.

The money I receive as payment stays in my account until the product is delivered to the customer and the satisfaction of that customer is verified (as much as I'm able to do so, not every customer wants to chat it up.) Just something I thought I'd throw out there! While this thread seems to be focused on knife makers (not what I do), not every company who takes payment up front is working some sort of scam!
That's true. The problem when it comes to some custom knife makers is the time frame. We are talking about potentially many months or even years which is less common in your industry. For example I ordered a knife from MP knives from NY. It took almost a year to get the knife. I didn't pay up front nor did the maker ask. I paid when the job was done and was happy with the outcome. Few people would wait a year for their backpack or pocket to be done. It's a different situation IMO.
I think the longest anyone has had to wait for me to complete an order is about two weeks for a custom pack. I generally get orders placed through my site finished in a week or less. Of course, it would be nice if I were busy enough that it would take me a little longer :wink: There is a manufacturer in the area where I could go to have runs done if the demand ever justifies it.
Your goods came along with me on a short 3-mile hike and jog in the snow today.

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Re: Vendors to avoid. Kaweah River Forge, gear2survive

Post by dunamis » Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:45 pm

Woods Walker wrote:
dunamis wrote:
Woods Walker wrote:
dunamis wrote:This is unrelated to the exact subject matter in this thread, but similar in regard to how I accept payment for the products I manufacture and retail. I accept payment up front because the items I offer have customizable features. If business is slow, sometimes I will produce some stock inventory of the more popular items, but I generally like to use this time for product development and research.

I have never bought a custom knife, nor do I know anything about the companies mentioned; but, in the year or more I've been in business I have received zero complaints from any of my customers regarding quality or service. And have had a number of repeat customers.

The money I receive as payment stays in my account until the product is delivered to the customer and the satisfaction of that customer is verified (as much as I'm able to do so, not every customer wants to chat it up.) Just something I thought I'd throw out there! While this thread seems to be focused on knife makers (not what I do), not every company who takes payment up front is working some sort of scam!
That's true. The problem when it comes to some custom knife makers is the time frame. We are talking about potentially many months or even years which is less common in your industry. For example I ordered a knife from MP knives from NY. It took almost a year to get the knife. I didn't pay up front nor did the maker ask. I paid when the job was done and was happy with the outcome. Few people would wait a year for their backpack or pocket to be done. It's a different situation IMO.
I think the longest anyone has had to wait for me to complete an order is about two weeks for a custom pack. I generally get orders placed through my site finished in a week or less. Of course, it would be nice if I were busy enough that it would take me a little longer :wink: There is a manufacturer in the area where I could go to have runs done if the demand ever justifies it.
Your goods came along with me on a short 3-mile hike and jog in the snow today.

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Re: Vendors to avoid. Kaweah River Forge, gear2survive

Post by Woods Walker » Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:55 pm

It carried a Naglene double walled canteen (f@cking cold these days), Altoids PSK, HP12 headlamp, extra set of CR123s and my camera with case. :D
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Re: Vendors to avoid. Kaweah River Forge, gear2survive

Post by Halfapint » Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:04 am

I was going to say I've bought 2 things from Storm Crow, a custom made parang (which I think he's now producing), and one of his 18" tomahawks. The tomahawk took nearly a year (he was swamped with military orders and custom builds). He states this on his website and I never bothered him about it because I know he does military and service members first. He never asked for payment upfront, and when everything is finished he contacted and told me it was done and sent a paypal bill.

I've also ordered from Dunamis paid upfront, I think order was filled the next day, and I received it within a week or so. Side note Dunamis wanted to make sure everything fit well, and he messaged me through this for a couple hours, make sure everything worked. He even went out of his way to make me a custom hanger set for my bag so I can carry 2 of his medium cargo pouches. He did this without telling me, and sent them to my house (arrived today before I went to work). He wouldn't accept payment and said he just wanted to make sure things work as intended.

The difference is communication and good business practices. Communicate your situation, and make sure that if something doesn't fit quite right because another manufacture makes something a little weird. Don't say, eh sorry, you're shit outta luck, not my problem.
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Re: Vendors to avoid. Kaweah River Forge, gear2survive

Post by JohnE » Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:44 pm

I think, in fact I know that the key principle that gets ignored by unscrupulous vendors is that they pay themselves first instead of last.

Bladeforums is full of threads about dishonest makers and vendors that follow a very predictable pattern, they start to get popular, they charge in advance, they spend the money, fail to deliver, stop communicating with their customers, start blaming all their failures on "computer problems", "email problems", "family issues", etc, etc, etc.

The guy from the shop in my original post who tried to keep over a thousand bucks for the better part of 2 years claimed he was having trouble refunding the stolen money because he needed to pay for a transmission overhaul...

In the meantime, legitimate makers and vendors just keep plugging along, running their businesses like businesses, not like a hobby to be abandoned when they lose interest or the suckers stop funding them.
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Re: Vendors to avoid. Kaweah River Forge, gear2survive

Post by dunamis » Sat Feb 28, 2015 1:24 pm

On a side note, if a manufacturer is really giving you an issue over something you've already paid for, there are legal means of solving it. A maker should never spend the money that has been received as a payment without first delivering the item purchased by the customer. And, should also have money on hand to deal with any compensation or other solution that is due in case of a manufacturer defect, etc. If you have to use money that customers have given in good faith for your own personal needs before making good on supplying the item for which the payment was received, you either need to declare bankruptcy or take out a loan.

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Re: Vendors to avoid. Kaweah River Forge, gear2survive

Post by G2samerica » Mon Aug 17, 2015 2:37 pm

First we would like to thank you for letting us join the forum we came across this today. Being very aware of this situation we stressed on several boards 2 sides to every story. But no excuse. We take full responsibility and we took care of it plus offered a really nice gift to the 2 customers. We screwed up but not intentionally to hurt anyone. We have been in business since 2006 and remain. We really do try hard selling, helping and meeting new customers...We have done a lot of good things. But we learned one major mistake can tear you down. We are not that bad of a company.

We true my appoligize. For any questions on this my office phone is 770 714 1512
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Re: Vendors to avoid. Kaweah River Forge, gear2survive

Post by Woods Walker » Tue Aug 18, 2015 9:41 pm

G2samerica wrote:First we would like to thank you for letting us join the forum we came across this today. Being very aware of this situation we stressed on several boards 2 sides to every story. But no excuse. We take full responsibility and we took care of it plus offered a really nice gift to the 2 customers. We screwed up but not intentionally to hurt anyone. We have been in business since 2006 and remain. We really do try hard selling, helping and meeting new customers...We have done a lot of good things. But we learned one major mistake can tear you down. We are not that bad of a company.

We true my appoligize. For any questions on this my office phone is 770 714 1512
My personal cell 770 712 2289
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Re: Vendors to avoid. Kaweah River Forge, gear2survive

Post by Woods Walker » Fri Oct 09, 2015 11:15 am

It would appear that Kaweah River Forge is no longer welcome at Bushcraft USA. Banned and vendor forum taken down. Just reporting what I seen.
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Re: Vendors to avoid. Kaweah River Forge, gear2survive

Post by JohnE » Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:06 pm

The owner of Kaweah River forge made the unforgivable error of joining another bushcraft related forum called Blades and Bushlore. The owner of Bushcraftusa are intolerant of what they consider disloyalty or dissent amongst their minions.
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Re: Vendors to avoid. Kaweah River Forge, gear2survive

Post by moab » Sat Oct 10, 2015 2:37 pm

Don't ever buy anything from Dave Michener at Elite Firearms in Hurst, TX. He ripped me off for a $700 AK47 pistol 4 years ago. And several others have had problems with him doing the same. His website doesn't work anymore. But here's his facebook page below. He was in an article of one of the major shooting mags too. Some years ago. It used to be all over the front page of his website.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Elite-Fi ... 9977288359
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Re: Vendors to avoid. Kaweah River Forge, gear2survive

Post by Woods Walker » Sun Oct 11, 2015 8:48 pm

JohnE wrote:The owner of Kaweah River forge made the unforgivable error of joining another bushcraft related forum called Blades and Bushlore. The owner of Bushcraftusa are intolerant of what they consider disloyalty or dissent amongst their minions.
I am not sure why they would care if Bart or anyone else joined another forum. They have vendors who I believe are members of Bushcraft UK. Also some who are members of Bladeforums. How have you come across this info? I remember reading complaints from customers over at Bushcraft USA but never heard of this. It doesn't really matter to me as don't have any interests (not a customer of Kaweah River Forge or vendor at Bushcraft USA) in that issue.
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Re: Vendors to avoid. Kaweah River Forge, gear2survive

Post by Towanda » Tue Oct 13, 2015 5:48 pm

The PTB at Bushcraft USA tried to trademark the word "bushcraft" a while back, too.

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Re: Vendors to avoid. Kaweah River Forge, gear2survive

Post by Woods Walker » Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:09 pm

Towanda wrote:The PTB at Bushcraft USA tried to trademark the word "bushcraft" a while back, too.

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I think they did it to protect their forum. Near as I can tell it's never been nor per the founders words going to be enforced against anyone.
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