Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by raptor » Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:23 pm

teotwaki wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:39 pm


In that linked post I think there was comment about how people felt like they were in a PAW even though the rest of the country was actually just fine. Preppers/survivalists probably need a litmus test to decide they are truly in a PAW and not just a local disaster. Probably be a good thread to have on its own.
I believe there was such a discussion. It may even be in that thread. However, the ZS hive mind came to the conclusion that if you are in a situation and you are unsure if it is a PAW situation then you cannot be in a PAW.

In short if there is any doubt, it is not a PAW.

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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by teotwaki » Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:57 am

raptor wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:23 pm

I believe there was such a discussion. It may even be in that thread. However, the ZS hive mind came to the conclusion that if you are in a situation and you are unsure if it is a PAW situation then you cannot be in a PAW.

In short if there is any doubt, it is not a PAW.
Ha! Some Members of the ZS Hive Mind are aleays whipping out their stingers......

I would imagine that beyond local symptoms there could be regional/national indicators over X number of months:

No aircraft at any altitude
No ships coming in to ports
Fed level agencies admit to no contact with their HQs then gradually sneak off
State agencies can't talk to other states then gradually drift off

Thanks Raptor!
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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by Stercutus » Fri Sep 07, 2018 2:52 am

- This thread is about the threat of imposters acting as if they were LEOs but you want to persist about whether or not food could be or ever was confiscated.
You brought it up not me.

If your argument is: "This one time, more than a hundred years ago, during a war, the FDA (That would be the Federal Agency) raided a house under the color of law, a law that is no longer in effect, for a case that was later thrown out" somehow equals the local po-po is going to come by my house with a SWAT Team (because they don't have anything better to do with their time) and swipe my food stores the next time the SHTF isn't merely a stretch; I find it actually a bizarre thought process.

Don't let me get in the way of your happiness (maybe not happiness but you know what I mean). But as I said it has never happened.
Local police enforce federal law whenever authorized by their state to do so or in some states it may be the situation they are told specifically they cannot enforce certain federal laws such as those related to immigration.
This is a sidebar but it is not true. The State can not empower local police to enforce Federal Laws. You would likely be surprised if you knew how such things really worked; but another time.
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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by flybynight » Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:21 am

yOU KNOW i HEAR pm IS WONDERFUL THIS TIME OF YEAR :crazy:
As of now I bet you got me wrong

John Titor was right

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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by teotwaki » Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:15 pm

Stercutus wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 2:52 am
blah blah blah
Honestly, you don't want discussion. When you do, let me know.
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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by Tireur » Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:25 am

Frankly I would be more worried about LEO's becoming criminals.

i.e. Katrina, Hell even Canadian cops go Mad Max at the drop of a hat, or flood, or ice storm. LEO's are the FIRST people you need to control in a SHTF scenario.
I did not slap you in the face, I high fived your head and your hands did not get in the way.
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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by flybynight » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:04 am

Tireur wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:25 am
Frankly I would be more worried about LEO's becoming criminals.

i.e. Katrina, Hell even Canadian cops go Mad Max at the drop of a hat, or flood, or ice storm. LEO's are the FIRST people you need to control in a SHTF scenario.
Got anything to back that claim up other than personal bias?
As of now I bet you got me wrong

John Titor was right

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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by CrossCut » Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:41 pm


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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by flybynight » Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:12 pm

CrossCut wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:41 pm
flybynight wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:04 am
Got anything to back that claim up other than personal bias?
There is this,
The emergence of warlords, armed factions, dacoits, bandit groups, and so-forth is well documented in societies that have experienced the serious breakdown of the national institutions of civil society. Disaster-relief workers give many accounts of armed groups that are often the remnants of the very institutions that normally would be used to preserve order in emergencies and to maintain the conditions for the functioning of markets or orderly allocation of relief supplies (Stephenson 1986). Units of law-enforcement agencies and military regiments have been observed (eg. in Somalia, Uganda, and Kampuchea) to act as independent economic units, collecting their own taxes on the movement of goods and appropriating services (Heder 1980). Their strength relies partly on their possession of firearms, but also on preexisting association and identification of common interests.
Unfortunately the cite to Stephenson is only listed as "personal communication" in the references section, and I haven't been able to locate a copy of the Heder book "Kampuchean occupation and resistance". Really a shame since I'd like to learn more about this statement as well, "Experience in Kampuchea and Uganda indicates a strong likelihood that gold and gemstones will emerge as currencies when paper money fails (Heder 1980).". The entire report is a pretty interesting read.
So we are comparing American and Canadian military and LEO to Somalia, Kampuchea and Uganda forces ?
As of now I bet you got me wrong

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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by Stercutus » Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:37 pm

I want to hear more about Canadian Cops going "Mad Max at the drop of hat".
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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by CrossCut » Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:41 pm

flybynight wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:12 pm
So we are comparing American and Canadian military and LEO to Somalia, Kampuchea and Uganda forces ?
Not comparing anything, just quoting the think tank study. That quote was from the "worst case scenario", as is this which imo makes sense:
Rather, the initial phase of the worst case is likely to be an undignified scramble for surviving resources to sustain life in the short term. This will be accompanied by the formation and dissolution of shifting alliances between individuals and groups, as community stalwarts, former politicians, religious leaders, entrepreneurs, criminals, policemen, and military units vie with each other to establish control over local populations.
I have a hard time envisioning a door-to-door check for excess/hoaded goods here, although not necessarily because our politicians or LE are more ethical than those of other countires but more due to our culture and the abundance of privately owned firearms. I also wouldn't expect that a privately owned silo of grain or a pasture of livestock would be left at the owner's disposal to give, trade, or sell as they saw fit in a worst case scenario either, even if our current "good guys" are still in charge.

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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by MPMalloy » Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:21 am

How do these threads get started?!?!? :shock: :? :crazy:

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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by moab » Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:10 pm

First off we have to stop pretending all cops are bad. And we have to stop pretending that all cops are golden stalwarts of moral high ground. Neither are true. As "cops" is a wide reaching term. With many different levels of philosophy and even areas of work. Just like "soldier" or "Marine". Yes. Both groups put their lives on the line daily. And that's a noble cause. But not all of them are "golden stalwarts of the moral high ground". Just like in society. But just as many - certainly more - do it for the right reasons - cops and soldiers alike. It's what happens and the different stages after a SHTF event that matters.

I think there's levels to this. To "after SHTF" scenarios. Is it PAW after SHTF? Is it just a few weeks out from a natural disaster like Katrina? Is it 6 months down the road from a national event that has crippled everything? Are we living in cooperative small communities? Or is it Mad Max time. With criminals running a mock. And you can't tell who the bad or good guys are?

I think the closer to starvation we get to. The closer to society breaking down to the point where local LE and local government stop functioning. If your kids are home starving to death. I find it highly unlikely that a cop, soldier or anyone else for that matter is out playing hero. Trying to help the masses keep their own children from starving. I can see it falling down to the point of every man or group to him or herself.

In that scenario. I can see everyone using every bit of power they have to keep their own kids alive and themselves.

And I think this is where our conversations fall apart. There is a faction within ZS that vehemently denies that anything other than a local or regional temporary disaster is going to happen. And another faction that believe in both a local/regional disaster and a full out PAW could happen. And each preps accordingly.

But for sake of discussion you have to define where you are in the post SHTF scenario. Local/regional disasters lend themselves toward cooperation and sharing resources. Beyond that - say a PAW - it gets very different. People stop sharing. Farmers start hiding their food. People start hiding their resources. Quite quickly. Especially if they are unsure where their next meal may come from. And as resources dry up in your area.

I wish I had more faith in cities. But I don't. They seem to be the first place for things to fall apart. To many people and not enough resources once they stop getting trucked and trained in by the tons. I see small country communities springing up. Banding together for protection of their crops and resources. And areas large enough to sustain them. How many die before they can get top such a place? Who knows. How hard will the fighting between these groups be? Who knows. But I think there will be a fair amount of fighting. We fight already over stupid things. Wait till your kids are starving and you haven't eaten in a few days. Things change drastically.

SO make sure you amend your comments with "where" in the "after a SHTF moment" we are. Because it makes a big difference. In one I see the police and military performing admirably. Later on in the starving portion of this scenario. I can see things changing. And people being more out for themselves or whatever small group they've joined.

And don't get me wrong about cops or military. They're going to perform just as admirably as the general citizenry. I've been one and worked closely with both. There are just as many people with high moral standards in LE or the military as there are in the general population. You can't single either group out as all bad or all good. They're just both. One may survive easier because of their training. For sure. But all groups suffer from the break down just as easily as the other.
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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by MPMalloy » Sat Sep 22, 2018 11:02 pm

moab wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:10 pm
First off we have to stop pretending all cops are bad. And we have to stop pretending that all cops are golden stalwarts of moral high ground. Neither are true. As "cops" is a wide reaching term. With many different levels of philosophy and even areas of work. Just like "soldier" or "Marine". Yes. Both groups put their lives on the line daily. And that's a noble cause. But not all of them are "golden stalwarts of the moral high ground". Just like in society. But just as many - certainly more - do it for the right reasons - cops and soldiers alike. It's what happens and the different stages after a SHTF event that matters.

I think there's levels to this. To "after SHTF" scenarios. Is it PAW after SHTF? Is it just a few weeks out from a natural disaster like Katrina? Is it 6 months down the road from a national event that has crippled everything? Are we living in cooperative small communities? Or is it Mad Max time. With criminals running a mock. And you can't tell who the bad or good guys are?

I think the closer to starvation we get to. The closer to society breaking down to the point where local LE and local government stop functioning. If your kids are home starving to death. I find it highly unlikely that a cop, soldier or anyone else for that matter is out playing hero. Trying to help the masses keep their own children from starving. I can see it falling down to the point of every man or group to him or herself.

In that scenario. I can see everyone using every bit of power they have to keep their own kids alive and themselves.

And I think this is where our conversations fall apart. There is a faction within ZS that vehemently denies that anything other than a local or regional temporary disaster is going to happen. And another faction that believe in both a local/regional disaster and a full out PAW could happen. And each preps accordingly.

But for sake of discussion you have to define where you are in the post SHTF scenario. Local/regional disasters lend themselves toward cooperation and sharing resources. Beyond that - say a PAW - it gets very different. People stop sharing. Farmers start hiding their food. People start hiding their resources. Quite quickly. Especially if they are unsure where their next meal may come from. And as resources dry up in your area.

I wish I had more faith in cities. But I don't. They seem to be the first place for things to fall apart. To many people and not enough resources once they stop getting trucked and trained in by the tons. I see small country communities springing up. Banding together for protection of their crops and resources. And areas large enough to sustain them. How many die before they can get top such a place? Who knows. How hard will the fighting between these groups be? Who knows. But I think there will be a fair amount of fighting. We fight already over stupid things. Wait till your kids are starving and you haven't eaten in a few days. Things change drastically.

SO make sure you amend your comments with "where" in the "after a SHTF moment" we are. Because it makes a big difference. In one I see the police and military performing admirably. Later on in the starving portion of this scenario. I can see things changing. And people being more out for themselves or whatever small group they've joined.

And don't get me wrong about cops or military. They're going to perform just as admirably as the general citizenry. I've been one and worked closely with both. There are just as many people with high moral standards in LE or the military as there are in the general population. You can't single either group out as all bad or all good. They're just both. One may survive easier because of their training. For sure. But all groups suffer from the break down just as easily as the other.
Good post. Thank you.

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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by CrossCut » Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:03 pm

Personally I was thinking post-attack (by volcanic ash, microbes, highly energetic particles,etc), but in the pre-recovery or pre-PAW stage, and nobody is certain which it will be yet.

Was reading some think tank studies from the 50's and 60's (mostly) this morning, USSR vs. USA nuclear war stuff obviously given the timeframe. There are many similarities to what moab mentions on resources and cities, small communities sticking together for protection, and others. Maybe a dedicated thread on these studies would be informative? Anyway, an opinion piece of a PA (post attack) story of fictional Parville, TN as invisioned by what seems to be a respected RAND Corporation think tank researcher in 1968.
[url=https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/p ... /P3764.pdf]Law enforcement, preattack style, has become meaningliess in most areas. Local police in food-rich communities help defend the status quo against outside "mobs" which in turn may have police assistance from evacuated or food-poor communities. Primary loyalties are the local group and its leaders who are focusing first on the group's short-range needs. Violence is common when these groups meet.]
He mentions (underlined for effect no less!) that "the grimness will be deliberately emphasized", yet by today's standards it's probably tame enough for a 7-yr old. Much like the earlier quote from the other study of a "undignified scramble for surviving resources", the reader is left to fill in the details for themselves. An "undignified scramble" sounds more like a 3-legged Father-Daughter sack race to me anyway. But from the quote above, can we say which group of police are a good guys? The ones trying to protect their community or the ones trying to protect their community? I won't be picking sides until the goals and methods of the groups have been determined, and not picking sides starts pre-attack IMO. Didn't intend for my earlier post to sound like cop-bashing if that was how it was interpreted by anyone anyway.

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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by JF89 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:39 pm

Good thread, very informative. I did not even consider this , yet it does seem like something that can and would happen.

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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by moab » Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:28 pm

So I started writing on the subject of cops and uniforms. But strayed into the "after all the uniforms are gone" territory. And wrote some on the use of camo. Which I think is sorely underrated in the prepper community. And many falsehoods seem to proliferate. I've been reading a lot of Selco too. So if I come off a little grizzled. That's why. lol.:

I also think if we were in a continental wide or world wide PAW that eventually cops would become a target and eventually remove their uniforms. They'll be targets - one for their gear. And two, I'm sure quite a few criminals would don whatever uniforms they can. And take advantage. MEaning posing as cops to take advantage. I can see the pendulum swing in the direction of not knowing who to trust. And cops removing their uniforms. As it no longer conveys help. Or even necessarily the good guys. In the end I don't think it will help the police officer or anyone else to don uniforms. And they're uniforms will be so taken advantage of no one will trust them. And they (meaning their uniforms) will become meaningless.

This may not be the case in a small tight knit community. And especially if the LEO can afford to stay within the communities borders and doesn't have to venture out. But I'd guess a venture out sooner or later would have to happen.

And you'd be best dressed in camo - rather than a uniform. So that you can hide in plain sight in a rural area (if a rural area is where your at - it should be. As we've discussed in this thread previously. Cities are no place to be in a PAW.). And for those grey men out there. At this point your carrying the most sought after tool in the world - a long gun. There's no hiding that. Let me repeat. There is no hiding a long gun. You can't break or fold it down and carry it in your backpack. Because you need it at a moments notice. And if you don't have a long gun. You better find one. Because if any one rule existed in firearms it would be that long guns are greater than pistols. Period. Not that pistols are useless. Your just not gonna get into a gunfight in a rural area with pistol that will beat a rifle. The distances are just to great. And the rifle calibers just to lethal.

So you're carrying it for everyone to see from far away. And you can see a man with a long gun from far away. Even without optics. So you might as well go combat ready. And if you don't think camo works. Ask a sniper. I can hide within feet of you with the proper camo. And from several tens of yards with even "decent" camo. I've literally stumbled across guys in camo before. Simply because they were so well hidden. ANd if you think different colors of earth tones is going to work - your wrong. And I think most cops know this. Especially if given a military background.

Think bowhunter. They might stand out in downtown LA. But in the woods they disappear with a decent dose of camo. (For those that don't know. Bowhunters are the ones that most use camo during hunting. They have to sneak up close to get a good shot.) So camo is essential. I have a camo oversuit that's made of 3d leaves (like a poor mans ghillie suit - overalls and a head cover with eye cut outs - I own because I had to use it for PI work. And it's very hasty and packs in a small footprint. PRobably the size but not the weight of a small tent. But it goes on in less than a minute. And your fully camo. That I've used to disappear in the woods within the 1 minute it takes to don. I've had cars almost literally drive over me. Because they couldn't see me. At night and during the day. I'm not saying it's the super wonderful technicolor dreamcoat that makes you literally disappear. But for the sake of someone taking your ass in an ambush. You might as well wear bells if your not wearing camo clothing, camo facepaint and everything else on you matching that camo. Even if you mix camo. Your going to stick out. If you've had any training in the military's more specialized forces you know how to spot this. It just sticks out. Like a sore thumb. And can be seen from far away.

So if you don't have it on already. Even decent camo clothing and camo face paint can work wonders. I've been attacked in exercises from less than a 100 yards. By men in nothing more than proper camo clothing and face paint. And you can't tell there there except for their muzzle flash.

And I'm not even talking about a slow stalk from a sniper in a real ghillie suit. Ghillie suits are heavy, cumbersome and difficult to move in. Effective. But difficult to live in. I'm talking same camo clothing, same camo face paint, same camo paint on your firearms and other items viewable. And it doesn't have to cost a lot. In fact in most of America good old Woodland will do. And it's the cheapest camo out there. Harder to find more modern items in that color. But even multicam or commercial patterns can be found for cheap. I personally stick to multicam. As you can find EVERYTHING in that camo pattern. Not so for woodland or commercial camos. Another reason I carry the hasty ghillie suit. Even if my on body camo is good. The suit helps seal that extra couple hundred yards. That may save your life by being able to remain hidden.

I see this argument so many times on prepping forums. "I'm going to wear carharts so I don't stick out." "I use various earth tones to camoflauge me. You can't even tell I'm there from a few hundred feet away. It's really more about movement." Movement is important. But these strategies will not work. Wear earth tones and I and any other military trained (or even observant person) will see you far in advance of your coming. WAY to many people on here and other forums think earth tones are going to save them in the mountains in a PAW full of bad guys. They aren't. They're going to stick out like a sore thumb. And they will pay for it. Your not sneaking up on a deer. Your sneaking up on or trying to go unnoticed by - man. That's a big difference. Men will see you. Trust me. Hunters will see you. Anyone who's ever been in the military will see you. That's a lot of people.

Most people are good natured. And kind people. I've been reading a lot of Selco. And I was in the MArine Corps in a sniper platoon. So A) I know what I'm talking about. But B) it may come across hard cause reading Selco makes you hard. LOL! ;) But being kind and helping people out is going to be the most tricky thing in the world during a true PAW. A true breakdown of our continent. It may not even be worth it. Depending on the situation and your control of it. It's best to stay hidden. Observe what's going on around you. And make the safest decisions for you and your family or compatriots can. I'm a helper by nature. And I'd like to expand my community with as many valuable members as possible. But determining someone's value or "values" is hard to do.

I think what most people don't realize is that the good aren't going to necessarily inherit the earth. Bad people are going to prevail. (There is always going to be a need to hide during a PAW.) Because they can take advantage of others good nature. And most people are good natured. What we take for granted now. Is very different in a PAW. In a PAW the only thing you can take for granted is death. And maybe that's where like minds exist. Someplace between a LEO, a military person and a Selco. It might as well be guerilla warfare. Where your hiding from people you don't know are bad guys. They're not wearing uniforms or little stickers that say I'm the bad buy. They are just gonna be bad guys. Or girls. Or...?

How do you tell the difference? By keeping your distance. Until they prove they aren't out to kill you. How do you do that? By being able to observe. And the only way you can do that is with camo. Cover and concealment. If you don't know the difference. Train with someone that does. Because in the end they aren't coming for all your neat gear. There coming because your carrying the one most sought after object in a war - and that's a long gun. Your not gonna hide it. So you might as well take along any other combat related item that might help you. Cause wearing a Carhartt jacket isn't going to hide the fact that your carrying an M16. And where's your mags and your ammo? Where are those hidden? And why are you hiding them? Your carrying around an M16 which might as well be a big flag that says "I have stuff worth killing me over.". For these simple facts - grey man does not work for me in a PAW. Yes. It will work in a refugee type scenario. Where maybe everyone is walking to the same border or tent city or what have you. Or your trying to get out of a city. And chaos reigns and everyone is out for everyone elses stuff. But again, if you've got stuff worth killing you over the first thing better be a gun. That's what's going to help you survive after the tent city and after the border crossing. Or wherever you end up - outside of cities. Because cities are no place to be in a PAW. Not to mention that gun might help you get out of the city.

So wear good camo. Train with it. Go hike out to a half mile of your buddy. And try to walk or crawl to where he is. And see if he can see you. You'll be surprised how quickly you become apparent.

Don't worry about grey man. If you think there's a chance that this is going to become a PAW. Because if it does. That means your in the woods. And you need a long gun to survive this. And there's no hiding a long gun. But you can hide it and yourself with camo. The right way. Yes you can hide it under your big Carhartt jacket. But then you won't be hidden in the woods. You'll stand out like a big tan deer. Know how many deer got found and killed last year by man? a lot.
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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by Stercutus » Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:15 pm

From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be rememberèd—
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother

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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by moab » Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:57 pm

Stercutus wrote:
Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:15 pm
Carhartt comes in camo.

https://www.sportsmanswarehouse.com/spo ... 20Clothing
LMAO!!! Thanks dude. I needed that.
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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by JF89 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:01 pm

moab wrote:
Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:28 pm
So I started writing on the subject of cops and uniforms. But strayed into the "after all the uniforms are gone" territory. And wrote some on the use of camo. Which I think is sorely underrated in the prepper community. And many falsehoods seem to proliferate. I've been reading a lot of Selco too. So if I come off a little grizzled. That's why. lol.:

I also think if we were in a continental wide or world wide PAW that eventually cops would become a target and eventually remove their uniforms. They'll be targets - one for their gear. And two, I'm sure quite a few criminals would don whatever uniforms they can. And take advantage. MEaning posing as cops to take advantage. I can see the pendulum swing in the direction of not knowing who to trust. And cops removing their uniforms. As it no longer conveys help. Or even necessarily the good guys. In the end I don't think it will help the police officer or anyone else to don uniforms. And they're uniforms will be so taken advantage of no one will trust them. And they (meaning their uniforms) will become meaningless.

This may not be the case in a small tight knit community. And especially if the LEO can afford to stay within the communities borders and doesn't have to venture out. But I'd guess a venture out sooner or later would have to happen.

And you'd be best dressed in camo - rather than a uniform. So that you can hide in plain sight in a rural area (if a rural area is where your at - it should be. As we've discussed in this thread previously. Cities are no place to be in a PAW.). And for those grey men out there. At this point your carrying the most sought after tool in the world - a long gun. There's no hiding that. Let me repeat. There is no hiding a long gun. You can't break or fold it down and carry it in your backpack. Because you need it at a moments notice. And if you don't have a long gun. You better find one. Because if any one rule existed in firearms it would be that long guns are greater than pistols. Period. Not that pistols are useless. Your just not gonna get into a gunfight in a rural area with pistol that will beat a rifle. The distances are just to great. And the rifle calibers just to lethal.

So you're carrying it for everyone to see from far away. And you can see a man with a long gun from far away. Even without optics. So you might as well go combat ready. And if you don't think camo works. Ask a sniper. I can hide within feet of you with the proper camo. And from several tens of yards with even "decent" camo. I've literally stumbled across guys in camo before. Simply because they were so well hidden. ANd if you think different colors of earth tones is going to work - your wrong. And I think most cops know this. Especially if given a military background.

Think bowhunter. They might stand out in downtown LA. But in the woods they disappear with a decent dose of camo. (For those that don't know. Bowhunters are the ones that most use camo during hunting. They have to sneak up close to get a good shot.) So camo is essential. I have a camo oversuit that's made of 3d leaves (like a poor mans ghillie suit - overalls and a head cover with eye cut outs - I own because I had to use it for PI work. And it's very hasty and packs in a small footprint. PRobably the size but not the weight of a small tent. But it goes on in less than a minute. And your fully camo. That I've used to disappear in the woods within the 1 minute it takes to don. I've had cars almost literally drive over me. Because they couldn't see me. At night and during the day. I'm not saying it's the super wonderful technicolor dreamcoat that makes you literally disappear. But for the sake of someone taking your ass in an ambush. You might as well wear bells if your not wearing camo clothing, camo facepaint and everything else on you matching that camo. Even if you mix camo. Your going to stick out. If you've had any training in the military's more specialized forces you know how to spot this. It just sticks out. Like a sore thumb. And can be seen from far away.

So if you don't have it on already. Even decent camo clothing and camo face paint can work wonders. I've been attacked in exercises from less than a 100 yards. By men in nothing more than proper camo clothing and face paint. And you can't tell there there except for their muzzle flash.

And I'm not even talking about a slow stalk from a sniper in a real ghillie suit. Ghillie suits are heavy, cumbersome and difficult to move in. Effective. But difficult to live in. I'm talking same camo clothing, same camo face paint, same camo paint on your firearms and other items viewable. And it doesn't have to cost a lot. In fact in most of America good old Woodland will do. And it's the cheapest camo out there. Harder to find more modern items in that color. But even multicam or commercial patterns can be found for cheap. I personally stick to multicam. As you can find EVERYTHING in that camo pattern. Not so for woodland or commercial camos. Another reason I carry the hasty ghillie suit. Even if my on body camo is good. The suit helps seal that extra couple hundred yards. That may save your life by being able to remain hidden.

I see this argument so many times on prepping forums. "I'm going to wear carharts so I don't stick out." "I use various earth tones to camoflauge me. You can't even tell I'm there from a few hundred feet away. It's really more about movement." Movement is important. But these strategies will not work. Wear earth tones and I and any other military trained (or even observant person) will see you far in advance of your coming. WAY to many people on here and other forums think earth tones are going to save them in the mountains in a PAW full of bad guys. They aren't. They're going to stick out like a sore thumb. And they will pay for it. Your not sneaking up on a deer. Your sneaking up on or trying to go unnoticed by - man. That's a big difference. Men will see you. Trust me. Hunters will see you. Anyone who's ever been in the military will see you. That's a lot of people.

Most people are good natured. And kind people. I've been reading a lot of Selco. And I was in the MArine Corps in a sniper platoon. So A) I know what I'm talking about. But B) it may come across hard cause reading Selco makes you hard. LOL! ;) But being kind and helping people out is going to be the most tricky thing in the world during a true PAW. A true breakdown of our continent. It may not even be worth it. Depending on the situation and your control of it. It's best to stay hidden. Observe what's going on around you. And make the safest decisions for you and your family or compatriots can. I'm a helper by nature. And I'd like to expand my community with as many valuable members as possible. But determining someone's value or "values" is hard to do.

I think what most people don't realize is that the good aren't going to necessarily inherit the earth. Bad people are going to prevail. (There is always going to be a need to hide during a PAW.) Because they can take advantage of others good nature. And most people are good natured. What we take for granted now. Is very different in a PAW. In a PAW the only thing you can take for granted is death. And maybe that's where like minds exist. Someplace between a LEO, a military person and a Selco. It might as well be guerilla warfare. Where your hiding from people you don't know are bad guys. They're not wearing uniforms or little stickers that say I'm the bad buy. They are just gonna be bad guys. Or girls. Or...?

How do you tell the difference? By keeping your distance. Until they prove they aren't out to kill you. How do you do that? By being able to observe. And the only way you can do that is with camo. Cover and concealment. If you don't know the difference. Train with someone that does. Because in the end they aren't coming for all your neat gear. There coming because your carrying the one most sought after object in a war - and that's a long gun. Your not gonna hide it. So you might as well take along any other combat related item that might help you. Cause wearing a Carhartt jacket isn't going to hide the fact that your carrying an M16. And where's your mags and your ammo? Where are those hidden? And why are you hiding them? Your carrying around an M16 which might as well be a big flag that says "I have stuff worth killing me over.". For these simple facts - grey man does not work for me in a PAW. Yes. It will work in a refugee type scenario. Where maybe everyone is walking to the same border or tent city or what have you. Or your trying to get out of a city. And chaos reigns and everyone is out for everyone elses stuff. But again, if you've got stuff worth killing you over the first thing better be a gun. That's what's going to help you survive after the tent city and after the border crossing. Or wherever you end up - outside of cities. Because cities are no place to be in a PAW. Not to mention that gun might help you get out of the city.

So wear good camo. Train with it. Go hike out to a half mile of your buddy. And try to walk or crawl to where he is. And see if he can see you. You'll be surprised how quickly you become apparent.

Don't worry about grey man. If you think there's a chance that this is going to become a PAW. Because if it does. That means your in the woods. And you need a long gun to survive this. And there's no hiding a long gun. But you can hide it and yourself with camo. The right way. Yes you can hide it under your big Carhartt jacket. But then you won't be hidden in the woods. You'll stand out like a big tan deer. Know how many deer got found and killed last year by man? a lot.
Good stuff, Selco does have some neat info on his site. Is his paid content worth it?

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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by flybynight » Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:27 am

moab wrote:
Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:28 pm
So I started writing on the subject of cops and uniforms. But strayed into the "after all the uniforms are gone" territory. And wrote some on the use of camo. Which I think is sorely underrated in the prepper community. And many falsehoods seem to proliferate. I've been reading a lot of Selco too. So if I come off a little grizzled. That's why. lol.:

I also think if we were in a continental wide or world wide PAW that eventually cops would become a target and eventually remove their uniforms. They'll be targets - one for their gear. And two, I'm sure quite a few criminals would don whatever uniforms they can. And take advantage. MEaning posing as cops to take advantage. I can see the pendulum swing in the direction of not knowing who to trust. And cops removing their uniforms. As it no longer conveys help. Or even necessarily the good guys. In the end I don't think it will help the police officer or anyone else to don uniforms. And they're uniforms will be so taken advantage of no one will trust them. And they (meaning their uniforms) will become meaningless.

This may not be the case in a small tight knit community. And especially if the LEO can afford to stay within the communities borders and doesn't have to venture out. But I'd guess a venture out sooner or later would have to happen.

And you'd be best dressed in camo - rather than a uniform. So that you can hide in plain sight in a rural area (if a rural area is where your at - it should be. As we've discussed in this thread previously. Cities are no place to be in a PAW.). And for those grey men out there. At this point your carrying the most sought after tool in the world - a long gun. There's no hiding that. Let me repeat. There is no hiding a long gun. You can't break or fold it down and carry it in your backpack. Because you need it at a moments notice. And if you don't have a long gun. You better find one. Because if any one rule existed in firearms it would be that long guns are greater than pistols. Period. Not that pistols are useless. Your just not gonna get into a gunfight in a rural area with pistol that will beat a rifle. The distances are just to great. And the rifle calibers just to lethal.

So you're carrying it for everyone to see from far away. And you can see a man with a long gun from far away. Even without optics. So you might as well go combat ready. And if you don't think camo works. Ask a sniper. I can hide within feet of you with the proper camo. And from several tens of yards with even "decent" camo. I've literally stumbled across guys in camo before. Simply because they were so well hidden. ANd if you think different colors of earth tones is going to work - your wrong. And I think most cops know this. Especially if given a military background.

Think bowhunter. They might stand out in downtown LA. But in the woods they disappear with a decent dose of camo. (For those that don't know. Bowhunters are the ones that most use camo during hunting. They have to sneak up close to get a good shot.) So camo is essential. I have a camo oversuit that's made of 3d leaves (like a poor mans ghillie suit - overalls and a head cover with eye cut outs - I own because I had to use it for PI work. And it's very hasty and packs in a small footprint. PRobably the size but not the weight of a small tent. But it goes on in less than a minute. And your fully camo. That I've used to disappear in the woods within the 1 minute it takes to don. I've had cars almost literally drive over me. Because they couldn't see me. At night and during the day. I'm not saying it's the super wonderful technicolor dreamcoat that makes you literally disappear. But for the sake of someone taking your ass in an ambush. You might as well wear bells if your not wearing camo clothing, camo facepaint and everything else on you matching that camo. Even if you mix camo. Your going to stick out. If you've had any training in the military's more specialized forces you know how to spot this. It just sticks out. Like a sore thumb. And can be seen from far away.

So if you don't have it on already. Even decent camo clothing and camo face paint can work wonders. I've been attacked in exercises from less than a 100 yards. By men in nothing more than proper camo clothing and face paint. And you can't tell there there except for their muzzle flash.

And I'm not even talking about a slow stalk from a sniper in a real ghillie suit. Ghillie suits are heavy, cumbersome and difficult to move in. Effective. But difficult to live in. I'm talking same camo clothing, same camo face paint, same camo paint on your firearms and other items viewable. And it doesn't have to cost a lot. In fact in most of America good old Woodland will do. And it's the cheapest camo out there. Harder to find more modern items in that color. But even multicam or commercial patterns can be found for cheap. I personally stick to multicam. As you can find EVERYTHING in that camo pattern. Not so for woodland or commercial camos. Another reason I carry the hasty ghillie suit. Even if my on body camo is good. The suit helps seal that extra couple hundred yards. That may save your life by being able to remain hidden.

I see this argument so many times on prepping forums. "I'm going to wear carharts so I don't stick out." "I use various earth tones to camoflauge me. You can't even tell I'm there from a few hundred feet away. It's really more about movement." Movement is important. But these strategies will not work. Wear earth tones and I and any other military trained (or even observant person) will see you far in advance of your coming. WAY to many people on here and other forums think earth tones are going to save them in the mountains in a PAW full of bad guys. They aren't. They're going to stick out like a sore thumb. And they will pay for it. Your not sneaking up on a deer. Your sneaking up on or trying to go unnoticed by - man. That's a big difference. Men will see you. Trust me. Hunters will see you. Anyone who's ever been in the military will see you. That's a lot of people.

Most people are good natured. And kind people. I've been reading a lot of Selco. And I was in the MArine Corps in a sniper platoon. So A) I know what I'm talking about. But B) it may come across hard cause reading Selco makes you hard. LOL! ;) But being kind and helping people out is going to be the most tricky thing in the world during a true PAW. A true breakdown of our continent. It may not even be worth it. Depending on the situation and your control of it. It's best to stay hidden. Observe what's going on around you. And make the safest decisions for you and your family or compatriots can. I'm a helper by nature. And I'd like to expand my community with as many valuable members as possible. But determining someone's value or "values" is hard to do.

I think what most people don't realize is that the good aren't going to necessarily inherit the earth. Bad people are going to prevail. (There is always going to be a need to hide during a PAW.) Because they can take advantage of others good nature. And most people are good natured. What we take for granted now. Is very different in a PAW. In a PAW the only thing you can take for granted is death. And maybe that's where like minds exist. Someplace between a LEO, a military person and a Selco. It might as well be guerilla warfare. Where your hiding from people you don't know are bad guys. They're not wearing uniforms or little stickers that say I'm the bad buy. They are just gonna be bad guys. Or girls. Or...?

How do you tell the difference? By keeping your distance. Until they prove they aren't out to kill you. How do you do that? By being able to observe. And the only way you can do that is with camo. Cover and concealment. If you don't know the difference. Train with someone that does. Because in the end they aren't coming for all your neat gear. There coming because your carrying the one most sought after object in a war - and that's a long gun. Your not gonna hide it. So you might as well take along any other combat related item that might help you. Cause wearing a Carhartt jacket isn't going to hide the fact that your carrying an M16. And where's your mags and your ammo? Where are those hidden? And why are you hiding them? Your carrying around an M16 which might as well be a big flag that says "I have stuff worth killing me over.". For these simple facts - grey man does not work for me in a PAW. Yes. It will work in a refugee type scenario. Where maybe everyone is walking to the same border or tent city or what have you. Or your trying to get out of a city. And chaos reigns and everyone is out for everyone elses stuff. But again, if you've got stuff worth killing you over the first thing better be a gun. That's what's going to help you survive after the tent city and after the border crossing. Or wherever you end up - outside of cities. Because cities are no place to be in a PAW. Not to mention that gun might help you get out of the city.

So wear good camo. Train with it. Go hike out to a half mile of your buddy. And try to walk or crawl to where he is. And see if he can see you. You'll be surprised how quickly you become apparent.

Don't worry about grey man. If you think there's a chance that this is going to become a PAW. Because if it does. That means your in the woods. And you need a long gun to survive this. And there's no hiding a long gun. But you can hide it and yourself with camo. The right way. Yes you can hide it under your big Carhartt jacket. But then you won't be hidden in the woods. You'll stand out like a big tan deer. Know how many deer got found and killed last year by man? a lot.
A ciener say's what?
As of now I bet you got me wrong

John Titor was right

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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by woodsghost » Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:27 pm

I don't know if anyone has noticed, but Mexico has consistently had to disarm their police and rid regional forces of .... fake cops.

https://www.npr.org/2018/09/26/65170803 ... by-drug-ga

Any reading of the disaster in Venezuela must have brought attention to the role and actions of the military. Those who have not left for better fortunes elsewhere.

ZS is international in nature, not solely based in the US. However, I"d like to note that many good people are part of the police force in Mexico and Venezuela. But bad people got in too. US police and military are largely good people. However, bad apples get in. There was a recent story about a US serviceman creating chemical weapons.

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=121982&p=2710651#p2710651

We cannot make blanket statements that all US police and military will, forever and always, be good people and completely altruistic in every disaster. Also, the OP is about criminals posing as LEOs.

My opinion? Life and loyalty will get pretty complicated if society totally collapses. Good and Bad will become a bit more grey. In a regional collapse, it is pretty clear our good guys in the US are good people. On the whole. Minus some individuals.

I'm not sure I can be so confident in LEOs in all other countries.
*Remember: I'm just a guy on the internet :)
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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by moab » Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:30 pm

flybynight wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:27 am
moab wrote:
Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:28 pm
So I started writing on the subject of cops and uniforms. But strayed into the "after all the uniforms are gone" territory. And wrote some on the use of camo. Which I think is sorely underrated in the prepper community. And many falsehoods seem to proliferate. I've been reading a lot of Selco too. So if I come off a little grizzled. That's why. lol.:

I also think if we were in a continental wide or world wide PAW that eventually cops would become a target and eventually remove their uniforms. They'll be targets - one for their gear. And two, I'm sure quite a few criminals would don whatever uniforms they can. And take advantage. MEaning posing as cops to take advantage. I can see the pendulum swing in the direction of not knowing who to trust. And cops removing their uniforms. As it no longer conveys help. Or even necessarily the good guys. In the end I don't think it will help the police officer or anyone else to don uniforms. And they're uniforms will be so taken advantage of no one will trust them. And they (meaning their uniforms) will become meaningless.

This may not be the case in a small tight knit community. And especially if the LEO can afford to stay within the communities borders and doesn't have to venture out. But I'd guess a venture out sooner or later would have to happen.

And you'd be best dressed in camo - rather than a uniform. So that you can hide in plain sight in a rural area (if a rural area is where your at - it should be. As we've discussed in this thread previously. Cities are no place to be in a PAW.). And for those grey men out there. At this point your carrying the most sought after tool in the world - a long gun. There's no hiding that. Let me repeat. There is no hiding a long gun. You can't break or fold it down and carry it in your backpack. Because you need it at a moments notice. And if you don't have a long gun. You better find one. Because if any one rule existed in firearms it would be that long guns are greater than pistols. Period. Not that pistols are useless. Your just not gonna get into a gunfight in a rural area with pistol that will beat a rifle. The distances are just to great. And the rifle calibers just to lethal.

So you're carrying it for everyone to see from far away. And you can see a man with a long gun from far away. Even without optics. So you might as well go combat ready. And if you don't think camo works. Ask a sniper. I can hide within feet of you with the proper camo. And from several tens of yards with even "decent" camo. I've literally stumbled across guys in camo before. Simply because they were so well hidden. ANd if you think different colors of earth tones is going to work - your wrong. And I think most cops know this. Especially if given a military background.

Think bowhunter. They might stand out in downtown LA. But in the woods they disappear with a decent dose of camo. (For those that don't know. Bowhunters are the ones that most use camo during hunting. They have to sneak up close to get a good shot.) So camo is essential. I have a camo oversuit that's made of 3d leaves (like a poor mans ghillie suit - overalls and a head cover with eye cut outs - I own because I had to use it for PI work. And it's very hasty and packs in a small footprint. PRobably the size but not the weight of a small tent. But it goes on in less than a minute. And your fully camo. That I've used to disappear in the woods within the 1 minute it takes to don. I've had cars almost literally drive over me. Because they couldn't see me. At night and during the day. I'm not saying it's the super wonderful technicolor dreamcoat that makes you literally disappear. But for the sake of someone taking your ass in an ambush. You might as well wear bells if your not wearing camo clothing, camo facepaint and everything else on you matching that camo. Even if you mix camo. Your going to stick out. If you've had any training in the military's more specialized forces you know how to spot this. It just sticks out. Like a sore thumb. And can be seen from far away.

So if you don't have it on already. Even decent camo clothing and camo face paint can work wonders. I've been attacked in exercises from less than a 100 yards. By men in nothing more than proper camo clothing and face paint. And you can't tell there there except for their muzzle flash.

And I'm not even talking about a slow stalk from a sniper in a real ghillie suit. Ghillie suits are heavy, cumbersome and difficult to move in. Effective. But difficult to live in. I'm talking same camo clothing, same camo face paint, same camo paint on your firearms and other items viewable. And it doesn't have to cost a lot. In fact in most of America good old Woodland will do. And it's the cheapest camo out there. Harder to find more modern items in that color. But even multicam or commercial patterns can be found for cheap. I personally stick to multicam. As you can find EVERYTHING in that camo pattern. Not so for woodland or commercial camos. Another reason I carry the hasty ghillie suit. Even if my on body camo is good. The suit helps seal that extra couple hundred yards. That may save your life by being able to remain hidden.

I see this argument so many times on prepping forums. "I'm going to wear carharts so I don't stick out." "I use various earth tones to camoflauge me. You can't even tell I'm there from a few hundred feet away. It's really more about movement." Movement is important. But these strategies will not work. Wear earth tones and I and any other military trained (or even observant person) will see you far in advance of your coming. WAY to many people on here and other forums think earth tones are going to save them in the mountains in a PAW full of bad guys. They aren't. They're going to stick out like a sore thumb. And they will pay for it. Your not sneaking up on a deer. Your sneaking up on or trying to go unnoticed by - man. That's a big difference. Men will see you. Trust me. Hunters will see you. Anyone who's ever been in the military will see you. That's a lot of people.

Most people are good natured. And kind people. I've been reading a lot of Selco. And I was in the MArine Corps in a sniper platoon. So A) I know what I'm talking about. But B) it may come across hard cause reading Selco makes you hard. LOL! ;) But being kind and helping people out is going to be the most tricky thing in the world during a true PAW. A true breakdown of our continent. It may not even be worth it. Depending on the situation and your control of it. It's best to stay hidden. Observe what's going on around you. And make the safest decisions for you and your family or compatriots can. I'm a helper by nature. And I'd like to expand my community with as many valuable members as possible. But determining someone's value or "values" is hard to do.

I think what most people don't realize is that the good aren't going to necessarily inherit the earth. Bad people are going to prevail. (There is always going to be a need to hide during a PAW.) Because they can take advantage of others good nature. And most people are good natured. What we take for granted now. Is very different in a PAW. In a PAW the only thing you can take for granted is death. And maybe that's where like minds exist. Someplace between a LEO, a military person and a Selco. It might as well be guerilla warfare. Where your hiding from people you don't know are bad guys. They're not wearing uniforms or little stickers that say I'm the bad buy. They are just gonna be bad guys. Or girls. Or...?

How do you tell the difference? By keeping your distance. Until they prove they aren't out to kill you. How do you do that? By being able to observe. And the only way you can do that is with camo. Cover and concealment. If you don't know the difference. Train with someone that does. Because in the end they aren't coming for all your neat gear. There coming because your carrying the one most sought after object in a war - and that's a long gun. Your not gonna hide it. So you might as well take along any other combat related item that might help you. Cause wearing a Carhartt jacket isn't going to hide the fact that your carrying an M16. And where's your mags and your ammo? Where are those hidden? And why are you hiding them? Your carrying around an M16 which might as well be a big flag that says "I have stuff worth killing me over.". For these simple facts - grey man does not work for me in a PAW. Yes. It will work in a refugee type scenario. Where maybe everyone is walking to the same border or tent city or what have you. Or your trying to get out of a city. And chaos reigns and everyone is out for everyone elses stuff. But again, if you've got stuff worth killing you over the first thing better be a gun. That's what's going to help you survive after the tent city and after the border crossing. Or wherever you end up - outside of cities. Because cities are no place to be in a PAW. Not to mention that gun might help you get out of the city.

So wear good camo. Train with it. Go hike out to a half mile of your buddy. And try to walk or crawl to where he is. And see if he can see you. You'll be surprised how quickly you become apparent.

Don't worry about grey man. If you think there's a chance that this is going to become a PAW. Because if it does. That means your in the woods. And you need a long gun to survive this. And there's no hiding a long gun. But you can hide it and yourself with camo. The right way. Yes you can hide it under your big Carhartt jacket. But then you won't be hidden in the woods. You'll stand out like a big tan deer. Know how many deer got found and killed last year by man? a lot.
A ciener say's what?
Hey do you know how many rounds it takes to take down a transformer?!! LMAO! Good one. I forgot the ciener. Ya. Everybody get a camo ciener or your gonna get beat.
"Ideas are more dangerous than guns. We don't let our people have guns. Why would we let them have ideas?" Josef Stalin

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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by moab » Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:52 pm

JF89 wrote:
Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:01 pm

Good stuff, Selco does have some neat info on his site. Is his paid content worth it?
I'm still taking his course. It's a lot of audio. And a lot of reading. The biggest takeaway so far is you've got to expect the worse as soon as you can. a lot of the beginning is convincing you that you need to prepare at all. So he's preaching to the choir a bit in the beginning. There is also a lot of practical knowledge. Like how to set up a successful trade. Things you wouldn't think of unless you were a career criminal. It's very much like doing a drug/cash transaction. You've gotta have back ups for your back ups. How to set up home defense. What things are important to prep. Soap. A big one. And bleach. Another big one. His biggest losses were to disease and unhealthy living conditions. But he stayed in the city and bugged in during his disaster. He also talks a lot about his current preps. Getting out to a small rural community as a BOL. Faster this time than the last time. When he stayed incorrectly.

I can't say it's worth the $79 yet. As I haven't finished. But there is a lot of talking. a lot of fluff that is basically him convincing you that you need to prep and think fast. And do things sooner. Again, kind of preaching to the choir. But even if your a prepper there's a lot to get out of it. Like prepping all the right stuff isn't going to save you. Plans and strategies are going to save you. Thinking is going to save you. Acting fast enough is going to save you. He kind of looks down on folks that prep a ton of shit. But have no plan to bug out. Or how to protect their supplies. Most will get taken advantage of. If things fall apart like they did in Croatia. Things get criminal pretty fast. And you have to be prepared for that more than anything else.

SO I guess if your thinking about prepping it's totally worth the money. Because if you don't believe things can get that bad. Your convinced differently. And your convinced that plans are what you need as much as your prepping. I personally will put a lot more effort into planning now. Than acquiring stuff. I have a more than average level of training. SO I've mainly concentrated on prepping. But need to put a lot more effort in plans. Like a phone tree. Who are you going to call first. And who is going to call someone after you. So that you call can meet up at plan location A. Or if no one answers what is the next place to meet. Deaddrops. Things you forgot about from spy school when you were a kid. Come into play here a lot. Your plans have to be a lot more sophisticated than you thought. And you have to make them now.

I'll do a more comprehensive review once I'm done. Thus far I recommend it.
"Ideas are more dangerous than guns. We don't let our people have guns. Why would we let them have ideas?" Josef Stalin

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