Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Zombie and/or other Post-Apocalyptic related movies for us to study and know what not to do.

Moderator: ZS Global Moderators

User avatar
raptor
ZS Global Moderator
ZS Global Moderator
Posts: 16191
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 10:18 pm
Location: Greater New Orleans Area

Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by raptor » Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:23 pm

teotwaki wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:39 pm


In that linked post I think there was comment about how people felt like they were in a PAW even though the rest of the country was actually just fine. Preppers/survivalists probably need a litmus test to decide they are truly in a PAW and not just a local disaster. Probably be a good thread to have on its own.
I believe there was such a discussion. It may even be in that thread. However, the ZS hive mind came to the conclusion that if you are in a situation and you are unsure if it is a PAW situation then you cannot be in a PAW.

In short if there is any doubt, it is not a PAW.

User avatar
teotwaki
ZS Member
ZS Member
Posts: 4131
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 11:58 pm
Contact:

Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by teotwaki » Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:57 am

raptor wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:23 pm

I believe there was such a discussion. It may even be in that thread. However, the ZS hive mind came to the conclusion that if you are in a situation and you are unsure if it is a PAW situation then you cannot be in a PAW.

In short if there is any doubt, it is not a PAW.
Ha! Some Members of the ZS Hive Mind are aleays whipping out their stingers......

I would imagine that beyond local symptoms there could be regional/national indicators over X number of months:

No aircraft at any altitude
No ships coming in to ports
Fed level agencies admit to no contact with their HQs then gradually sneak off
State agencies can't talk to other states then gradually drift off

Thanks Raptor!
My adventures and pictures are on my blog http://suntothenorth.blogspot.com

User avatar
Stercutus
* * * * *
Posts: 12141
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:16 pm
Location: Bouncing in to Graceland

Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by Stercutus » Fri Sep 07, 2018 2:52 am

- This thread is about the threat of imposters acting as if they were LEOs but you want to persist about whether or not food could be or ever was confiscated.
You brought it up not me.

If your argument is: "This one time, more than a hundred years ago, during a war, the FDA (That would be the Federal Agency) raided a house under the color of law, a law that is no longer in effect, for a case that was later thrown out" somehow equals the local po-po is going to come by my house with a SWAT Team (because they don't have anything better to do with their time) and swipe my food stores the next time the SHTF isn't merely a stretch; I find it actually a bizarre thought process.

Don't let me get in the way of your happiness (maybe not happiness but you know what I mean). But as I said it has never happened.
Local police enforce federal law whenever authorized by their state to do so or in some states it may be the situation they are told specifically they cannot enforce certain federal laws such as those related to immigration.
This is a sidebar but it is not true. The State can not empower local police to enforce Federal Laws. You would likely be surprised if you knew how such things really worked; but another time.
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be rememberèd—
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother

User avatar
flybynight
* * * * *
Posts: 2187
Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2013 12:30 am

Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by flybynight » Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:21 am

yOU KNOW i HEAR pm IS WONDERFUL THIS TIME OF YEAR :crazy:
As of now I bet you got me wrong

John Titor was right

User avatar
teotwaki
ZS Member
ZS Member
Posts: 4131
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 11:58 pm
Contact:

Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by teotwaki » Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:15 pm

Stercutus wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 2:52 am
blah blah blah
Honestly, you don't want discussion. When you do, let me know.
My adventures and pictures are on my blog http://suntothenorth.blogspot.com

User avatar
Tireur
* * *
Posts: 761
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:50 pm
Location: Armpit Of Canuckistan

Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by Tireur » Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:25 am

Frankly I would be more worried about LEO's becoming criminals.

i.e. Katrina, Hell even Canadian cops go Mad Max at the drop of a hat, or flood, or ice storm. LEO's are the FIRST people you need to control in a SHTF scenario.
I did not slap you in the face, I high fived your head and your hands did not get in the way.
Epicest th'd evah http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... 29&t=29034" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Image

User avatar
flybynight
* * * * *
Posts: 2187
Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2013 12:30 am

Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by flybynight » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:04 am

Tireur wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:25 am
Frankly I would be more worried about LEO's becoming criminals.

i.e. Katrina, Hell even Canadian cops go Mad Max at the drop of a hat, or flood, or ice storm. LEO's are the FIRST people you need to control in a SHTF scenario.
Got anything to back that claim up other than personal bias?
As of now I bet you got me wrong

John Titor was right

CrossCut
ZS Member
ZS Member
Posts: 137
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:32 am

Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by CrossCut » Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:41 pm


User avatar
flybynight
* * * * *
Posts: 2187
Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2013 12:30 am

Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by flybynight » Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:12 pm

CrossCut wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:41 pm
flybynight wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:04 am
Got anything to back that claim up other than personal bias?
There is this,
The emergence of warlords, armed factions, dacoits, bandit groups, and so-forth is well documented in societies that have experienced the serious breakdown of the national institutions of civil society. Disaster-relief workers give many accounts of armed groups that are often the remnants of the very institutions that normally would be used to preserve order in emergencies and to maintain the conditions for the functioning of markets or orderly allocation of relief supplies (Stephenson 1986). Units of law-enforcement agencies and military regiments have been observed (eg. in Somalia, Uganda, and Kampuchea) to act as independent economic units, collecting their own taxes on the movement of goods and appropriating services (Heder 1980). Their strength relies partly on their possession of firearms, but also on preexisting association and identification of common interests.
Unfortunately the cite to Stephenson is only listed as "personal communication" in the references section, and I haven't been able to locate a copy of the Heder book "Kampuchean occupation and resistance". Really a shame since I'd like to learn more about this statement as well, "Experience in Kampuchea and Uganda indicates a strong likelihood that gold and gemstones will emerge as currencies when paper money fails (Heder 1980).". The entire report is a pretty interesting read.
So we are comparing American and Canadian military and LEO to Somalia, Kampuchea and Uganda forces ?
As of now I bet you got me wrong

John Titor was right

User avatar
Stercutus
* * * * *
Posts: 12141
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:16 pm
Location: Bouncing in to Graceland

Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by Stercutus » Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:37 pm

I want to hear more about Canadian Cops going "Mad Max at the drop of hat".
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be rememberèd—
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother

CrossCut
ZS Member
ZS Member
Posts: 137
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:32 am

Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by CrossCut » Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:41 pm

flybynight wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:12 pm
So we are comparing American and Canadian military and LEO to Somalia, Kampuchea and Uganda forces ?
Not comparing anything, just quoting the think tank study. That quote was from the "worst case scenario", as is this which imo makes sense:
Rather, the initial phase of the worst case is likely to be an undignified scramble for surviving resources to sustain life in the short term. This will be accompanied by the formation and dissolution of shifting alliances between individuals and groups, as community stalwarts, former politicians, religious leaders, entrepreneurs, criminals, policemen, and military units vie with each other to establish control over local populations.
I have a hard time envisioning a door-to-door check for excess/hoaded goods here, although not necessarily because our politicians or LE are more ethical than those of other countires but more due to our culture and the abundance of privately owned firearms. I also wouldn't expect that a privately owned silo of grain or a pasture of livestock would be left at the owner's disposal to give, trade, or sell as they saw fit in a worst case scenario either, even if our current "good guys" are still in charge.

MPMalloy
ZS Member
ZS Member
Posts: 3300
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:48 am

Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by MPMalloy » Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:21 am

How do these threads get started?!?!? :shock: :? :crazy:

User avatar
moab
* * * * *
Posts: 3188
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:07 pm

Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by moab » Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:10 pm

First off we have to stop pretending all cops are bad. And we have to stop pretending that all cops are golden stalwarts of moral high ground. Neither are true. As "cops" is a wide reaching term. With many different levels of philosophy and even areas of work. Just like "soldier" or "Marine". Yes. Both groups put their lives on the line daily. And that's a noble cause. But not all of them are "golden stalwarts of the moral high ground". Just like in society. But just as many - certainly more - do it for the right reasons - cops and soldiers alike. It's what happens and the different stages after a SHTF event that matters.

I think there's levels to this. To "after SHTF" scenarios. Is it PAW after SHTF? Is it just a few weeks out from a natural disaster like Katrina? Is it 6 months down the road from a national event that has crippled everything? Are we living in cooperative small communities? Or is it Mad Max time. With criminals running a mock. And you can't tell who the bad or good guys are?

I think the closer to starvation we get to. The closer to society breaking down to the point where local LE and local government stop functioning. If your kids are home starving to death. I find it highly unlikely that a cop, soldier or anyone else for that matter is out playing hero. Trying to help the masses keep their own children from starving. I can see it falling down to the point of every man or group to him or herself.

In that scenario. I can see everyone using every bit of power they have to keep their own kids alive and themselves.

And I think this is where our conversations fall apart. There is a faction within ZS that vehemently denies that anything other than a local or regional temporary disaster is going to happen. And another faction that believe in both a local/regional disaster and a full out PAW could happen. And each preps accordingly.

But for sake of discussion you have to define where you are in the post SHTF scenario. Local/regional disasters lend themselves toward cooperation and sharing resources. Beyond that - say a PAW - it gets very different. People stop sharing. Farmers start hiding their food. People start hiding their resources. Quite quickly. Especially if they are unsure where their next meal may come from. And as resources dry up in your area.

I wish I had more faith in cities. But I don't. They seem to be the first place for things to fall apart. To many people and not enough resources once they stop getting trucked and trained in by the tons. I see small country communities springing up. Banding together for protection of their crops and resources. And areas large enough to sustain them. How many die before they can get top such a place? Who knows. How hard will the fighting between these groups be? Who knows. But I think there will be a fair amount of fighting. We fight already over stupid things. Wait till your kids are starving and you haven't eaten in a few days. Things change drastically.

SO make sure you amend your comments with "where" in the "after a SHTF moment" we are. Because it makes a big difference. In one I see the police and military performing admirably. Later on in the starving portion of this scenario. I can see things changing. And people being more out for themselves or whatever small group they've joined.

And don't get me wrong about cops or military. They're going to perform just as admirably as the general citizenry. I've been one and worked closely with both. There are just as many people with high moral standards in LE or the military as there are in the general population. You can't single either group out as all bad or all good. They're just both. One may survive easier because of their training. For sure. But all groups suffer from the break down just as easily as the other.
"Ideas are more dangerous than guns. We don't let our people have guns. Why would we let them have ideas?" Josef Stalin

MPMalloy
ZS Member
ZS Member
Posts: 3300
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:48 am

Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by MPMalloy » Sat Sep 22, 2018 11:02 pm

moab wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:10 pm
First off we have to stop pretending all cops are bad. And we have to stop pretending that all cops are golden stalwarts of moral high ground. Neither are true. As "cops" is a wide reaching term. With many different levels of philosophy and even areas of work. Just like "soldier" or "Marine". Yes. Both groups put their lives on the line daily. And that's a noble cause. But not all of them are "golden stalwarts of the moral high ground". Just like in society. But just as many - certainly more - do it for the right reasons - cops and soldiers alike. It's what happens and the different stages after a SHTF event that matters.

I think there's levels to this. To "after SHTF" scenarios. Is it PAW after SHTF? Is it just a few weeks out from a natural disaster like Katrina? Is it 6 months down the road from a national event that has crippled everything? Are we living in cooperative small communities? Or is it Mad Max time. With criminals running a mock. And you can't tell who the bad or good guys are?

I think the closer to starvation we get to. The closer to society breaking down to the point where local LE and local government stop functioning. If your kids are home starving to death. I find it highly unlikely that a cop, soldier or anyone else for that matter is out playing hero. Trying to help the masses keep their own children from starving. I can see it falling down to the point of every man or group to him or herself.

In that scenario. I can see everyone using every bit of power they have to keep their own kids alive and themselves.

And I think this is where our conversations fall apart. There is a faction within ZS that vehemently denies that anything other than a local or regional temporary disaster is going to happen. And another faction that believe in both a local/regional disaster and a full out PAW could happen. And each preps accordingly.

But for sake of discussion you have to define where you are in the post SHTF scenario. Local/regional disasters lend themselves toward cooperation and sharing resources. Beyond that - say a PAW - it gets very different. People stop sharing. Farmers start hiding their food. People start hiding their resources. Quite quickly. Especially if they are unsure where their next meal may come from. And as resources dry up in your area.

I wish I had more faith in cities. But I don't. They seem to be the first place for things to fall apart. To many people and not enough resources once they stop getting trucked and trained in by the tons. I see small country communities springing up. Banding together for protection of their crops and resources. And areas large enough to sustain them. How many die before they can get top such a place? Who knows. How hard will the fighting between these groups be? Who knows. But I think there will be a fair amount of fighting. We fight already over stupid things. Wait till your kids are starving and you haven't eaten in a few days. Things change drastically.

SO make sure you amend your comments with "where" in the "after a SHTF moment" we are. Because it makes a big difference. In one I see the police and military performing admirably. Later on in the starving portion of this scenario. I can see things changing. And people being more out for themselves or whatever small group they've joined.

And don't get me wrong about cops or military. They're going to perform just as admirably as the general citizenry. I've been one and worked closely with both. There are just as many people with high moral standards in LE or the military as there are in the general population. You can't single either group out as all bad or all good. They're just both. One may survive easier because of their training. For sure. But all groups suffer from the break down just as easily as the other.
Good post. Thank you.

CrossCut
ZS Member
ZS Member
Posts: 137
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:32 am

Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by CrossCut » Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:03 pm

Personally I was thinking post-attack (by volcanic ash, microbes, highly energetic particles,etc), but in the pre-recovery or pre-PAW stage, and nobody is certain which it will be yet.

Was reading some think tank studies from the 50's and 60's (mostly) this morning, USSR vs. USA nuclear war stuff obviously given the timeframe. There are many similarities to what moab mentions on resources and cities, small communities sticking together for protection, and others. Maybe a dedicated thread on these studies would be informative? Anyway, an opinion piece of a PA (post attack) story of fictional Parville, TN as invisioned by what seems to be a respected RAND Corporation think tank researcher in 1968.
[url=https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/p ... /P3764.pdf]Law enforcement, preattack style, has become meaningliess in most areas. Local police in food-rich communities help defend the status quo against outside "mobs" which in turn may have police assistance from evacuated or food-poor communities. Primary loyalties are the local group and its leaders who are focusing first on the group's short-range needs. Violence is common when these groups meet.]
He mentions (underlined for effect no less!) that "the grimness will be deliberately emphasized", yet by today's standards it's probably tame enough for a 7-yr old. Much like the earlier quote from the other study of a "undignified scramble for surviving resources", the reader is left to fill in the details for themselves. An "undignified scramble" sounds more like a 3-legged Father-Daughter sack race to me anyway. But from the quote above, can we say which group of police are a good guys? The ones trying to protect their community or the ones trying to protect their community? I won't be picking sides until the goals and methods of the groups have been determined, and not picking sides starts pre-attack IMO. Didn't intend for my earlier post to sound like cop-bashing if that was how it was interpreted by anyone anyway.

Post Reply

Return to “Zombie Training Films”