Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

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Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by teotwaki » Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:14 pm



ZS members who are LEOs could have more tips to add
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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by absinthe beginner » Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:27 pm

After the Waldo Canyon fires in Colorado, authorities ordered the mandatory evacuation of Woodland Park and Manitou Springs. A friend of mine who lived in Woodland Park stayed at his house since there had been reports of widespread burglaries of houses in evacuated areas. Sure enough, some dirtbag carrying a clipboard and an orange safety vest turned up at his house and knocked on his door (Rob didn't answer) and then started snooping around his property, clearly casing the place. Rob walked out with a gun (pointed at the ground) and asked the guy what he thought he was doing. The guy showed him an obviously fake badge of some sort, and Rob told him to take a hike. Anybody can pick up a safety vest and clipboard and look official, and telling bona fide LEOs from fakes or rogue cops is going to be a challenge in a SHTF situation.

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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by teotwaki » Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:39 pm

Around here in "peaceful" times we have lots of posers who build fake police cruisers with lightbars, spotlights, and misleading paint and graphics or they have motorcycles that appear to be owned by a police department when they are not. The posers drive at high speed on the freeways, follow cars and try intimidation techniques of all sorts. I am sure that in a SHTF situation these posers will run rampant and revel in the chance to unleash their LEO fantasies.

One thing I look for are the license plates that are issued to government agencies as the posers have no way to get around legally displaying their assigned civilian license plate.
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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by teotwaki » Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:44 pm

Well, this may be a legit cruiser, ha ha

Image
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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by Stercutus » Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:47 pm

Faking police, military and fire service is an old game. Only the first is nearly always a crime. It's a much bigger problem than you might think.

BLUF- Trust no one after the SHTF that you did not know beforehand.


Con men love faking the funk as military. Cut the hair, put on a uniform and stand up straight and suddenly they are somebody that they always wanted to be but could not. They can then run around and using their stolen credibility con people out of resources. Any infirimity and inconsistency in their story can go back to their service in the "war". We tend to treat military with respect in our country and military personnel are completely non-threatening to people in normal times. After the SHTF a fake military person can throw a big monkey wrench in to efforts to get things going again.

https://www.militarytimes.com/2013/03/2 ... ack-beret/
https://www.adn.com/features/article/cu ... 011/08/26/

The big problem for military fakers is they can't pull off the fake active duty role without help as military never act alone, especially domestically. When the grid is up a simple records check at SSRA with personal provided information can show a person served (although not what they did). Some people fake it for years, past service mostly but sometimes reserve duty to cover unexplained absences. Being fake military does not normally imbue any fake authority to the person


With police there is a somewhat similar situation although con men tend to avoid pretending to be police as it is way to easy to prove and figure out. Unless on-line or pretending to be DEA agents.

https://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/pubs ... n_scam.htm

Police are held accountable for their actions and one phone call can undo things in a heartbeat. Being fake police is often a crime that people will get prosecuted for unless they are say 14 years old.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/14-year-ol ... lice-gear/

Fake police have even fooled real police on occasion.

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/01/us/01impostor.html


People that fake being police are more in to intimidation and subverting power for themselves. Many have mental problems. State backed police powers are fairly strong so long as the officer is acting in accordance with the rules. After the SHTF, the easiest way to spot fake police is determing what their intentions are as expressed through actions. If they are after the drugs or the money they are nearly always gang members.
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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by absinthe beginner » Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:56 pm

Mexican drug cartels have for years impersonated Army and Marine patrols using uniforms, weapons, and vehicles that are close copies of those used by security forces. In addition, many corrupt Mexican police forces work closely with organized crime elements to identify potential kidnapping and extortion victims.

https://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/mexican- ... d=16431461

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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by teotwaki » Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:05 am

Thanks Stercutus and Absinthe Beginner! Great comments.
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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by absinthe beginner » Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:49 am

My concern isn't so much with rogue cops or criminals masquerading as cops, it's much more with Officer Friendly showing up at my door with a legal order to search the premises for any "hoarded supplies' than can then be requisitioned "for the greater good of the community."

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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by teotwaki » Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:38 pm

absinthe beginner wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:49 am
My concern isn't so much with rogue cops or criminals masquerading as cops, it's much more with Officer Friendly showing up at my door with a legal order to search the premises for any "hoarded supplies' than can then be requisitioned "for the greater good of the community."
Yeah, that is more likely to happen and Officer Friendly might bring the SWAT collection team with him too.

If it was not a PAW you might have to surrender whatever you have not hidden. If it is the PAW it could be only a firefight will drive them off.
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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by Stercutus » Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:13 pm

I am seeing big logical failure here. Don't see how it would be more likely. Officer Friendly has never, ever shown up at any doorstep in a home in America during any type of disaster of any kind to requisition home owner supplies for the greater good.

Criminals posing as police rip people off all the time; under normal times, during a disaster, whenever and wherever possible.

So explain again why you think it is more likely that police are going bring a SWAT team to your house to your house to grab your pails of red hard wheat?
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be rememberèd—
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by teotwaki » Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:41 pm

Stercutus wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:13 pm
I am seeing big logical failure here. Don't see how it would be more likely. Officer Friendly has never, ever shown up at any doorstep in a home in America during any type of disaster of any kind to requisition home owner supplies for the greater good.

Criminals posing as police rip people off all the time; under normal times, during a disaster, whenever and wherever possible.

So explain again why you think it is more likely that police are going bring a SWAT team to your house to your house to grab your pails of red hard wheat?
Let's divide up your post into different parts with answers that you might have logically found by yourself through Google -

Is confiscation of a private citizen's goods including food a legal act at this time?

YES

2010 US Code
Title 50 – WAR AND NATIONAL DEFENSE
TITLE 50 – APPENDIX-WAR AND NATIONAL DEFENSE
DEFENSE PRODUCTION ACT OF 1950
Sec. 2072 – Hoarding of designated scarce materials

In order to prevent hoarding, no person shall accumulate (1) in excess of the reasonable demands of business, personal, or home consumption, or (2) for the purpose of resale at prices in excess of prevailing market prices, materials which have been designated by the President as scarce materials or materials the supply of which would be threatened by such accumulation. The President shall order published in the Federal Register, and in such other manner as he may deem appropriate, every designation of materials the accumulation of which is unlawful and any withdrawal of such designation.

In making such designations the President may prescribe such conditions with respect to the accumulation of materials in excess of the reasonable demands of business, personal, or home consumption as he deems necessary to carry out the objectives of this Act [sections 2061 to 2170, 2171, and 2172 of this Appendix]. This section shall not be construed to limit the authority contained in sections 101 and 704 of this Act [sections 2071 and 2154 of this Appendix].


Obama expanded on the 1950's act with this https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/th ... eparedness

It explicitly defines food resources -

(e) "Food resources" means all commodities and products, (simple, mixed, or compound), or complements to such commodities or products, that are capable of being ingested by either human beings or animals, irrespective of other uses to which such commodities or products may be put, at all stages of processing from the raw commodity to the products thereof in vendible form for human or animal consumption. "Food resources" also means potable water packaged in commercially marketable containers, all starches, sugars, vegetable and animal or marine fats and oils, seed, cotton, hemp, and flax fiber, but does not mean any such material after it loses its identity as an agricultural commodity or agricultural product.


Has confiscation ever occurred?

YES

You should really have dug into this one. Hoarding was illegal in WW1 and WW2. In WW2 Americans of Japanese descent lost more than just food, they lost their homes and everything in them to the Alien Property Custodian (Officer Friendly). On 11 March 1942, President Franklin D. Roosevelt issued Executive Order 9095 establishing the Office of the Alien Property Custodian as an independent agency under his direct authority. Cars not "voluntarily" sold to the Army were seized by the Army.

Yes, you can quibble about a world war not being a "disaster" but if the government wants to take your food they can.

Why and when is it likely to happen?

It won't happen when the overriding event is localized such as a quake, hurricane and so on. The rest of the country will be unharmed and can send vast quantities of aid to the impacted area which means the local authorities will have a hard time defending why they were confiscating food. So Officer Friendly will have to stick to seizures of drugs and cash from homes through Civil Forfeiture actions.

When it is a nationwide or worldwide event of such a scale that infrastructure is destroyed and everyone is left to fend for themselves then the stage is set for local authorities to engage in Civil Forfeiture which is devoid of due process.
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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by Stercutus » Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:05 pm

Cars not "voluntarily" sold to the Army were seized by the Army
There you go again.

Let's review one more time:

Cars are not food.

The Army is not the police.

The Federal Government is also not the police.

The police do not enforce Federal or Military Law

The police have never seized food from a residence in the US in the name of redistribution ever.


Some other notes (since for some odd reason you chose to threw some odd men strawman in):
WAR AND NATIONAL DEFENSE
DEFENSE PRODUCTION ACT OF 1950:

In 68 years not one ounce of food has ever been seized under this act. Seizing resources was not the point of the act either.
Is confiscation of a private citizen's goods including food a legal act at this time?
No this is not legal at this time. Go back and read it again. If you wish highlight and underline the part where it says seizing food is legal. Because clearly I missed it.
On 11 March 1942, President Franklin D. Roosevelt issued Executive Order 9095 establishing the Office of the Alien Property Custodian as an independent agency under his direct authority.

Correct under the Trading with the Enemy Act. With the power to:
Any property, or interest therein, of any foreign country or a national thereof shall vest in the Alien Property Custodian whenever the Alien Property Custodian shall so direct; and, in the case of any property, or interest therein, subject to the control of the Secretary of the Treasury, when the Alien Property Custodian shall notify the Secretary of the Treasury in writing that he has so directed, the Secretary of the Treasury shall release all control of any such property, or interest therein, to the Alien Property Custodian.

So I take it you are foreign national to country that is belligerent to the US? Or you trade commodities with them? Or send the Taliban NVG's and MOPP suits? Those would be bad. I mean not the MOPP suit thing that would be awesome. But the rest would all be bad.
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be rememberèd—
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by NT2C » Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:34 pm

I'm just going to step in here for a moment and thank you folks for keeping this as non-political as possible so far, and I trust that you will continue to do so. There's good information being shared here and this is not a thread I'd want to see locked. :clap:
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Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Except sailors. They will kill you and sing songs about it.

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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by raptor » Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:44 pm

My experieances post - Katrina left me with the clear understanding that in such a situation one should avoid at all costs anyone wearing any kind of uniform. Full stop.

In such a situation any official is likely to be hot, sweaty and grumpy at best. Unpleasant and belligerent at worst. These things bring out the worst in people. Your best bet in such a scenario is avoidance if possible, courtesy if it is not possible.

See the thread on accountability on CP&P for a more detailed discussion of the matter.

A prior good relationship is helpful as are any legitimate credentials if it involves legitimate officials. If they are imposters, then avoidance is your best bet.

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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by Stercutus » Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:14 am

My experiences post - Katrina left me with the clear understanding that in such a situation one should avoid at all costs anyone wearing any kind of uniform. Full stop.
I am going to say in NOLA and certain other places like Chicago and anywhere in coastal California or NYC this is best policy all the time.
From this day to the ending of the world,
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by raptor » Thu Sep 06, 2018 1:01 pm

A link to the CP&P thread on Accountability I mentioned above.
https://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtop ... =6&t=60213

I am not nor do I intend for my comments to be critical of any LEO group. They do a tough job but they are human like everyone else and sometimes things do not go as intended.

The OP is discussing criminals posing and LEOs post SHTF. Here is the and simple truth as I see it.

Katrina was a SHTF situation but it was limited to a relatively small region. You could go 60 miles in either direction and find "normalcy". However, for many reasons it brought out the worst in virtually everyone. It was not at all pleasant and you really could not trust anyone. I could only image what things woudl like if it affected an area even twice the size much less nationally.

So IMO if you are worried about this type of risk, read the thread above. Then I offer this simple advice. If you are in a true SHTF situation and you encounter anyone with an official capacity of any kind, unless you or your friends know them, assume nothing, avoid them if possible. If you have to interact with them be polite but assume you are answering a blind too good to be true Craig's List personal advertisement. Be prepared to react accordingly.

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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by Stercutus » Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:21 pm

I am not nor do I intend for my comments to be critical of any LEO group.

Your local police are merely a colored point of view of whatever local government you have in place.
From this day to the ending of the world,
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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by teotwaki » Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:39 pm

raptor wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 1:01 pm
A link to the CP&P thread on Accountability I mentioned above.
https://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtop ... =6&t=60213

I am not nor do I intend for my comments to be critical of any LEO group. They do a tough job but they are human like everyone else and sometimes things do not go as intended.

The OP is discussing criminals posing and LEOs post SHTF. Here is the and simple truth as I see it.

Katrina was a SHTF situation but it was limited to a relatively small region. You could go 60 miles in either direction and find "normalcy". However, for many reasons it brought out the worst in virtually everyone. It was not at all pleasant and you really could not trust anyone. I could only imagine what things would like if it affected an area even twice the size much less nationally.

So IMO if you are worried about this type of risk, read the thread above. Then I offer this simple advice. If you are in a true SHTF situation and you encounter anyone with an official capacity of any kind, unless you or your friends know them, assume nothing, avoid them if possible. If you have to interact with them be polite but assume you are answering a blind too good to be true Craig's List personal advertisement. Be prepared to react accordingly.
In that linked post I think there was comment about how people felt like they were in a PAW even though the rest of the country was actually just fine. Preppers/survivalists probably need a litmus test to decide they are truly in a PAW and not just a local disaster. Probably be a good thread to have on its own.
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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by teotwaki » Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:40 pm

Stercutus wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:21 pm
Your local police are merely a colored point of view of whatever local government you vote into office.
Fixed it for ya'
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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by moab » Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:37 pm

Stercutus wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:21 pm
I am not nor do I intend for my comments to be critical of any LEO group.

Your local police are merely a colored point of view of whatever local government you have in place.
Thats why were getting so many different views here. My father and grandfather were cops at different points. And both Marines. As were many members of my family. But having lived everywhere from a rural 800 pop town. To Los Angeles and Seattle. Even worked a couple years with the Seattle PD. Was in the corps. And spent many years as a PI. Cops are a cross section of our world. But a bit on the conservative side. But all are affected by the "norm" in their locale. There are good ones and bad ones and ones inbetween. The only thing I've learned is just because someone has a uniform doesn't mean they are good guys. Most are. But not all of them. I saw many guys kicked out of the MArine corps for being not good guys. And I've seen cops get in it deep for not being good guys.

I think in a true paw. Where everyones children are dying of hunger. You simply can't trust anyone. If my children or relatives were dying from hunger or lack of medication or what have you. I would not be above using my uniform to get what they needed (I do not wear one anymore for the record). Not that I would rip anyone off. But if I could find said supplies by the use of my uniform or connections because of it. I would not hesitate. That's just how the world works. Even on a lesser scale today - not even in a PAW. You want your kid in that preschool you better know somebody that knows somebody. Cops aren't necessarily preppers either. Their need is going to be just as great as anybody else's. Not saying I would put on a uniform to do this. I would not. I think that's well below the belt. And fodder for whatever you get if you do so.

I remember back in the 80's. Getting stranded out in northern CA in the middle of nowhere. Pulling my dress blues from the Marine Corps out of my dry cleaning bag. And catching a ride 900 miles to base. It took 2 minutes and the first car to come by that saw me walking with my blues over my shoulder. To say I didn't know what I was doing would have been a lie. lol. But I was 18. And needed the help. It came quick. People in this country are by and large a nice group of people. But it all depends on where your at.

Hopefully good behavior will prevail though. I hope that someday soon I can be not only a part of a nicer small community. But one that is close in proximity too. I currently live in Los Angeles far away from my home unit. I think in rural areas where everyone knows everyone your going to find kinder behavior. But in the inner cities it's going to be every man, woman and child for themselves.
"Ideas are more dangerous than guns. We don't let our people have guns. Why would we let them have ideas?" Josef Stalin

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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by teotwaki » Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:36 pm

Stercutus wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:05 pm

There I go again.
Fixed it for ya' my friend ..... :mrgreen:

- This thread is about the threat of imposters acting as if they were LEOs but you want to persist about whether or not food could be or ever was confiscated.

The Food and Fuel Control Act which became national law in 1917 as the "An Act to Provide Further for the National Security and Defense by Encouraging the Production, Conserving the Supply, and Controlling the Distribution of Food Products and Fuel."

"In short, the government became a food dictator, and anyone possessing more than a 30-day supply of food (which was considered reasonable by food administrator Herbert Hoover) could be arrested."

May 30, 1918, New York Times headline, "Navy Man Indicted for Food Hoarding."

The article reported on a private citizen who had invested his wife's inheritance in a year's food for storage. The food was confiscated and they were held on a $3,000 bail each.

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-fr ... 946996D6CF

I have researched and shared current law which you refuse to read or investigate yourself. I am not going to waste my time researching for you who actually went in and grabbed the food in the examples I have shared with you.

So yes, people had food confiscated. I realize you'd love to dismiss any such FACTS because you want to derail things by saying the "police" did not do it and Federal law does not apply at a state level or whatever. Local police enforce federal law whenever authorized by their state to do so or in some states it may be the situation they are told specifically they cannot enforce certain federal laws such as those related to immigration. Immigration laws have endless related discussions about this. It is up to you to research state by state and find your own answers as to which states specifically tell their officers not to enforce federal laws against hoarding.

If this is an important topic to you I encourage you to start your own thread and seek assistance there. In this thread I am interested in discussing what is in the first post and not having that derailed any further as you successfully orchestrated in another thread of mine.

Best regards,

Jim
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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by teotwaki » Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:43 pm

moab wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:37 pm

I think in a true paw. Where everyones children are dying of hunger. You simply can't trust anyone. If my children or relatives were dying from hunger or lack of medication or what have you. I would not be above using my uniform to get what they needed (I do not wear one anymore for the record). Not that I would rip anyone off. But if I could find said supplies by the use of my uniform or connections because of it. I would not hesitate. That's just how the world works. Even on a lesser scale today - not even in a PAW. You want your kid in that preschool you better know somebody that knows somebody. Cops aren't necessarily preppers either. Their need is going to be just as great as anybody else's. Not saying I would put on a uniform to do this. I would not. I think that's well below the belt. And fodder for whatever you get if you do so.

snipped a bit---
I've read that in my county they have tried to ensure that the families of first responders will be looked after in a disaster situation so the good guys can focus on their jobs helping the public. In a true PAW the problem will be the point at which county assistance runs out and they lose control of the first responders who need to care for their families and there is no one to suppress the imposters who don uniforms in order to take advantage of the void.
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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by flybynight » Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:10 pm

teotwaki wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:40 pm
Stercutus wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:21 pm
Your local police are merely a colored point of view of whatever local government you vote into office.
Fixed it for ya'
You voted for those in office in Cali? :rofl:
As of now I bet you got me wrong

John Titor was right

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Re: Criminals Posing as LEOs After SHTF

Post by teotwaki » Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:47 pm

flybynight wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:10 pm

You voted for those in office in Cali? :rofl:
Yes, I have absentee ballots in your name :mrgreen:
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