Tango Down! Now What? - What to do after a defensive shoot

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Stercutus
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Tango Down! Now What? - What to do after a defensive shoot

Post by Stercutus » Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:48 am

This incident provoked some thought.

http://www.al.com/news/huntsville/index ... cart_river
The man, whose name is being withheld by police, broke into the rear of the house armed with a gun, Lawson said. At that time, the woman told her mother to run away and call police.

While the homeowner ran to a neighbor's house, calling 911 and tripping the house's burglar alarm, her daughter armed herself with a shotgun.

When the man did not stop coming toward her or drop his own weapon, she shot him, Lawson said.

Police officers arriving at that moment heard gunshots and saw the woman in the garage, holding the shotgun. They demanded she drop the weapon, and when she turned toward them with the gun in her hand, at least one officer opened fire.

The woman was struck by the police gunfire. Both she and the man were taken to Huntsville Hospital.

How many people know what to do and best practices to apply for after a defensive shooting? It would be a shame to survive a deadly encounter with a bad guy only to be killed by your supposed rescuers.
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Re: Tango Down! Now What? - What to do after a defensive sho

Post by norcalprep » Thu Apr 30, 2015 11:00 pm

This guy covered the same topic here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGe_G3HDKFQ. It's about 2 minutes in.

If she could get her mom out, why did she stay?

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Re: Tango Down! Now What? - What to do after a defensive sho

Post by Neptune Glory » Fri May 01, 2015 3:02 pm

The way I heard it... drop the gun (preferably before the police show up, if the bad guy is down), or at least have it holstered (hard to do wtih a shotgun, poor girl!).

Then say:

"This was self defense. I will sign the complaint. That is my evidence (point to it slowly), these are my witnesses (if any). You will have my full cooperation within twenty-four hours, after I speak with counsel."

After that, do whatever the police tell you to do, but don't say much else about the incident. Re-assert your right to remain silent if pressured to make a statement. You might get put on the floor / handcuffed / etc. Get over it. The police have to do their jobs.

That's the way I heard it, anyway.
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Re: Tango Down! Now What? - What to do after a defensive sho

Post by Hollis » Fri May 01, 2015 4:39 pm

norcalprep wrote:This guy covered the same topic here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGe_G3HDKFQ. It's about 2 minutes in.

If she could get her mom out, why did she stay?

Good question. There is no legal reason to leave is my understanding. The law does not require a person to retreat. Part of the right of self defense.

There probably a lot of speculation as to why. One could be, she did not want the perp to follow her mom.

Her mistake was not following the LEO's order. Arriving on a scene the LEO's do not know who is who. One reason it is recommended to stay put in a place that you can defend until after the LEO arrive. It is one of those things that it is important to understand the laws where you live and what the political climate is on this issue.

I hope she recovers completely.
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Re: Tango Down! Now What? - What to do after a defensive sho

Post by Phoenix David » Fri May 01, 2015 6:43 pm

Hollis wrote:
Her mistake was not following the LEO's order. Arriving on a scene the LEO's do not know who is who.
Yep and if they say drop it...drop it....modern firearms shouldn't go off when dropped, it will probably hurt you more hearing the sound of it hitting the ground than it will hurt the gun.
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Re: Tango Down! Now What? - What to do after a defensive sho

Post by norcalprep » Sat May 02, 2015 2:43 am

It's one of the reasons why I've been looking into a gun belt of some sort or a holster with a paddle. It's my understanding that if you are armed and have called 911, one of the things the operator asks you to do is to 'secure your weapon' before the cops get there. If I have a neutralized threat on my kitchen floor (with or without firing a shot), I'd want to keep it covered until the moment just before the cops step into my house. At which point in time, I should holster the weapon. I can't just leave it on the dining table, nor do I want to leave the scene to put it back in the safe.

It's so much more complicated than 'just grab a gun and go' when you hear a bump in the night these days.

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Re: Tango Down! Now What? - What to do after a defensive sho

Post by norcalprep » Sat May 02, 2015 2:53 am

Hollis wrote:
Good question. There is no legal reason to leave is my understanding. The law does not require a person to retreat. Part of the right of self defense.

There probably a lot of speculation as to why. One could be, she did not want the perp to follow her mom.

Her mistake was not following the LEO's order. Arriving on a scene the LEO's do not know who is who. One reason it is recommended to stay put in a place that you can defend until after the LEO arrive. It is one of those things that it is important to understand the laws where you live and what the political climate is on this issue.

I hope she recovers completely.
Oh, I get the 'no duty to retreat' bit. I'm sure she has a pretty good legal standing for staying put and shooting.

My train of thought is that if I hear a bump in the night, I'd probably turn on my camera monitor and check it out. it will probably be pretty innocuous. Still, I might arm up and just double check the doors and windows. It probably will never cross my mind to tell my wife to grab the kids and run.

If there ever is the situation where I immediately go 'oh crap! Wife, get the kids and git!', I probably already realized that the situation is pretty bad. If I think the situation is bad, I don't really want to stay.

This lady realized immediately that it was bad. That's pretty awesome and great situational awareness. But then she stayed. That part is odd to me.

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Re: Tango Down! Now What? - What to do after a defensive sho

Post by duodecima » Sat May 02, 2015 5:26 pm

Hollis wrote: Her mistake was not following the LEO's order.
Clearly. I wonder how many seconds she was given to comply? Because when you're adrenalinized time seems to last twice as long (literally, I've had the opportunity to stand back and watch the clock, and see how long time felt vs actual seconds, when there was potentially a life on the line. For me, the time dilation factor is about 2:1 - it feels like I said something about 5-6 seconds ago, when in reality it's been about 2-3.

Then factor in shock and disbelief, which makes you process things and react slowly. If some voice suddenly said "DROP IT" to me in that situation and I didn't know who it was, I'd be a fool to comply without looking to see if it was the cops or the robber's buddies. (And a person in shock may miss the sirens.) At which point the cops may shoot you because as far as they're honestly concerned, they told you to DROP IT at least 6 seconds ago and you instead turned towards them.

I've always thought I would put the weapon, if I'd been force to use one, down and away (why can't you leave it on the dining room table? Unless that's too close to the criminal?) from me when I realized the police were arriving, but in the actual event who knows how clearly I'd be thinking.

The whole situation is massively unfortunate for everybody (since I can't imagine the police were happy about it either), and I also hope she recovers.
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Re: Tango Down! Now What? - What to do after a defensive sho

Post by procyon » Sat May 02, 2015 8:01 pm

duodecima wrote: If some voice suddenly said "DROP IT"
I don't know much of anything about this, but another thing that can be a problem is - if the shooting was inside, she could have been about half deaf if a fair chunk of time hadn't past. Firing a shotgun inside a small space is a bit like lighting off firecrackers by your ears. Between shock, stress, and ringing ears - she might not have understood what was said, just that somebody was hollering at her.

Sad situation. I hope she ends up ok.
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Re: Tango Down! Now What? - What to do after a defensive sho

Post by LowKey » Sun May 03, 2015 12:10 pm

This is why you should describe yourself to the dispatcher on the phone.
Example," I'm the homeowner. I'm male, about 6 feet tall, 190lbs, blond, and wearing jeans and short sleeved blue shirt. Please let the officers know I'm covering the suspect but I'm a little shaken up. My name is "XXXXXXX".

By and large, cops are not bad folks. If the above info gets relayed to them I'm willing to bet they'll try to address you by name (if you match the description) AND give you a few extra seconds to process instructions and lower/drop your weapon.

Cell phones. Great things to have at 3am when something goes bump in the night.

*edited to add*
This is also a good reason to have an attorney familiar with self defense shoots on retainer, Meet with them NOW and establish an attorney-client relationship today. Let them deal with the police and interviews....YOU need to get to a hospital to be checked out.
Who to get/where to find him/her? Find out who represents most of the LEOs in your area in post-shooting hearings in court. Hire them.
Last edited by LowKey on Tue May 05, 2015 12:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tango Down! Now What? - What to do after a defensive sho

Post by norcalprep » Sun May 03, 2015 3:06 pm

If an intruder woke me up in the middle of the night, my 911 call would be "I'm the homeowner. I'm male, about 6 feet tall, and nude."

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Re: Tango Down! Now What? - What to do after a defensive sho

Post by Hollis » Sun May 03, 2015 6:51 pm

She turned while holding the shotgun, that can mean a immediate threat to the LEO. Time becomes unimportant as to when they (LEO) respond. They do not have any time.
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Re: Tango Down! Now What? - What to do after a defensive sho

Post by Stercutus » Mon May 04, 2015 5:26 am

I am guessing the shooter was under a huge amount of stress right after the shooting. Possibly tunnel vision and auditory exclusion. The way we combat stress is through training. In normal times, most places you can count on the police being there fairly quick after a shooting.

She may not have even called the police. Someone else may have done it and not known what was going on.
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Re: Tango Down! Now What? - What to do after a defensive sho

Post by Hollis » Mon May 04, 2015 2:26 pm

Stercutus wrote:I am guessing the shooter was under a huge amount of stress right after the shooting. Possibly tunnel vision and auditory exclusion. The way we combat stress is through training. In normal times, most places you can count on the police being there fairly quick after a shooting.

She may not have even called the police. Someone else may have done it and not known what was going on.

Very possible and as you mentioned training. Never leave home or stay at home with out. I notice there are several members who are part of professional training business. IMHO, that is a good source for members to improve their skills on firearms. Ignorance is probably the most dangerous part of owning a firearm. It lessens the likelihood of a problem like this along with other mistakes.

As I mentioned in another post, doing everything right does not mean it will end well. At least with training and knowledge one can stack the odds in their favor.
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