body armor

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Blacksheep
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Re: body armor

Post by Blacksheep » Tue Sep 23, 2014 6:53 pm

So I got anchance to check out pyziks steel plates
10x12

The length is ok ( just covers the bottom of my rob cage)

The width is where I'm worried
If price wasn't an issue I would get the xl plates purely for the width

But I don't know if I can justify, up to double the price for half an inch more coverage on each side

I snapped a couple pics of me holding the plate
In it, the plate is more or less at whatever that point is called where your throat meets your chest

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Re: body armor

Post by woodsghost » Tue Sep 23, 2014 7:07 pm

Everything I know about body armor fitting comes from this:


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Re: body armor

Post by ancient_serpent » Tue Sep 23, 2014 10:31 pm

Looks ok to me, I usually err on the side of going a bit small for armor/plates. That video woods ghost put up is a great explanation of what the plates are designed to protect. You really don't want them too large, it will fit like crap and is heavier than it needs to be.

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Re: body armor

Post by RonnyRonin » Tue Sep 23, 2014 11:05 pm

woodsghost wrote:
And honestly, green tip is easier to stop than M193 if you are talking about steel. The velocity matters.

I'll be watching all those when I have the chance, I'd heard the same thing (m193>green tip) in regards to steel but I'd heard it was reversed in regards to plastics, dyneema and weird composites. Since I've sworn off steel plates I've been mostly looking at plastics (since I already have ceramics) and green tip seems to be their weak point.

What about the plates degrade over time? I haven't look up exactly what composite these plates are made of, I know SAPIs expire but I was pretty sure that was the kevlar backer that went "bad" and much like canned food will work decades after the pull date.
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Re: body armor

Post by Blacksheep » Tue Sep 23, 2014 11:40 pm

Fwiw
Bullet proof me . Com says old surplus vests test just fine 10+ years afterwards

But they ARE selling them, so take it with a grain of salt
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Re: body armor

Post by woodsghost » Wed Sep 24, 2014 1:16 pm

If you pay attention to what people find when they shoot old armor, 10+ years seems to be fine. It is when you shoot stuff from the 1970's that the materials have clearly degraded, assuming they were ok to begin with.

Now, I would not trust my life to something made in the 1980's either. 1990's and sooner there is more variation. So check out if anybody has tested what you own, from that date of manufacture, and see what it stood up to and what it did not.

I was reading about body armor and found out a lot of the levels of certification are not "capable of stopping" ratings, but "capable of stopping and not stretching more than about an inch or two into your chest." Which means older degraded materials may actually be capable of still stopping rounds, but the wearer experiences more blunt trauma upon impact. This could cause internal injuries even though it captures the bullet.

I"m not recommending for or against older armor. I'm saying educate yourself first. But if your dad might have worn it, don't go wearing it and expecting protection.

Now, as to green tip (M855) penetrating other forms of armor:



Yes, in fact, it does punch through other forms of armor. But there are some caveats discussed at the end. I would have liked to have seen additional shots on other portions of the armor. It would have been simple enough to do. Just shoot the friggin edges. I also wish he would have used M193 as an additional test.

Also, in reference to some of my earlier posts, he tests M193 against AR500 through a Tavor at what he states is 30 yrds.



This, ladies and gents, is what we call "replication and convergence." Testing things using different methods and by different people. It appears he is shooting a 16 inch barreled Tavor. Whatever temperature he is experiencing (given clothing, I"m guessing 50's to 60's F), it seems a bit cooler. With cooler temps, weapons don't achieve the same pressures and same velocities. This suggests M193 is capable of punching through AR500 armor when exiting a 20 inch barrel, but from a 16 inch barrel, it is right on the border and probably only succeeds at close ranges. This suggests it is not likely to punch through AR500 on a cold day. Past moderate ranges, will not have the velocity needed to punch through AR500 even on hot days. All this explains why AR500 tends to stop (though I don't think it is rated for) M855.

I think it is pretty clear there is a critical velocity 5.56 need to punch through steel armor. You can accomplish this over a longer range if you use a 20 inch barrel and shoot M193. Given that most people seem to be running 16 inch barreled guns (or SBRs or pistols) and running M855, those wearing steel should be just fine.

Something to consider: A 22-250 has a good chance of meeting and exceeding the required velocity for penetration of steel for quite a long flight path.

Image

Question: But how many mutant ninja zombie bikers carry a 22-250, or certain loads of 7mm Mag or 300 Win mag?

Answer:



:D

That one was meant to be kinda snarky and fun folks. I honestly don't know how ceramic would fair against most of the hotter hunting rounds either.
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Re: body armor

Post by TheZone » Wed Sep 24, 2014 1:53 pm

It broke my heart when Carl recovered. I was hoping the goofy little b*stard would buy it.

At least his mom is dead.
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Re: body armor

Post by Blacksheep » Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:04 am

So, I had just about convinced myself round fragmentation could be mitigated in regards to steel
Coatings and pads etc

Then I started thinking all these tests about fragmentation are involving rounds coming straight on at the plate,

I'm not sure about these coatings and covers in regards to a ricochet
Ceramic will catch the round regardless of angle

But I really don't like that ceramic plates have a shelflife
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Re: body armor

Post by woodsghost » Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:50 am

I thought ceramic was less likely to have spalling too, or ricochets, but this videos indicates you will have it, no matter what.





This is not a well done test, but it's failures illustrate points. For one, even ceramic will spall and throw junk around, though I don't believe all ceramic plates are made equal. But don't think just because you have ceramic, you don't have to worry about spall or fragmentation of the plate. Also, steel DOES have better multi-hit protection. And while the testers should not have been shooting the ceramic plat in the same spot if they wanted to truly test the plate, it does illustrate the point that multiple rounds in the same area will eventually punch through (remember this video?). Tests in other videos I posted indicate most quality ceramic plates will hold up to rounds hitting pretty close together. The test above needed to show additional rounds to the rest of the ceramic plate and overall fails to make it's conclusions stick, in my opinion. Especially in light of other tests.

Second, vests only really work well when you are head on. That is why my military friends who are training with these are training to face the enemy square full on (also, faster recovery when rapid firing due to body mechanics). You start introducing angles and suddenly things get tricky as shots can skip off, potentially up into the wearer's head/neck. But then, those were rounds destined for the heart/lungs/arteries anyway, so it is not like it reduced your protection. It just changed the entry point. The concerns with spalling seems to have pushed steel plate makers, one in particular, to really step up their game in making spall protection.

Lesson's leaned: plates are not magic. You can still get shot in the head, arms, legs, pelvic region, with lots of important blood vessels in all those places. Learn to fight with the plates centered on the enemy. You start leaning back at a 45 deg angle, and incoming rounds can skip up into your face.

Now, poorly done test #2:



I'm not going into why this or the other video is poorly done. But the redeeming feature of this video is to see what happens when a plate is hit in a plate carrier. Namely, the carrier catches a lot of the junk that would go flying around. Those carriers are made of tough material that will either capture or slow down fragments.

If you are really concerned about it, consider making a spall guard.

I can't find the threads on making spall protectors from old kevlar vests. I gotta get back to what pays the bills, so you can figure it out. It is not hard to make them.

Here is a ready made solution:

http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178729

http://drmorgear.wordpress.com/products/spall-guards/
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Re: body armor

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Thu Sep 25, 2014 11:34 am

Second, vests only really work well when you are head on. That is why my military friends who are training with these are training to face the enemy square full on (also, faster recovery when rapid firing due to body mechanics). You start introducing angles and suddenly things get tricky as shots can skip off, potentially up into the wearer's head/neck. But then, those were rounds destined for the heart/lungs/arteries anyway, so it is not like it reduced your protection. It just changed the entry point. The concerns with spalling seems to have pushed steel plate makers, one in particular, to really step up their game in making spall protection.
Uh, not true. Not for ceramic, anyway. We get taught to face head-on because that's where the plates are. If I quarter away from you, that exposes area where my plates are not. Also makes a much more stable shooting position and less likely that you can be easily knocked over. At shallow enough angles, ceramic may introduce some skipping, but you don't have to be perpendicular to the strike surface either.
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Re: body armor

Post by woodsghost » Thu Sep 25, 2014 12:01 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
Second, vests only really work well when you are head on. That is why my military friends who are training with these are training to face the enemy square full on (also, faster recovery when rapid firing due to body mechanics). You start introducing angles and suddenly things get tricky as shots can skip off, potentially up into the wearer's head/neck. But then, those were rounds destined for the heart/lungs/arteries anyway, so it is not like it reduced your protection. It just changed the entry point. The concerns with spalling seems to have pushed steel plate makers, one in particular, to really step up their game in making spall protection.
Uh, not true. Not for ceramic, anyway. We get taught to face head-on because that's where the plates are. If I quarter away from you, that exposes area where my plates are not. Also makes a much more stable shooting position and less likely that you can be easily knocked over. At shallow enough angles, ceramic may introduce some skipping, but you don't have to be perpendicular to the strike surface either.
Thanks for the clarification Doc. I was not clear when writing.

You don't have to be 90 degrees perpendicular with steel either. Few if any people shooting these plates are truly at a 90 degree angle. Most seem to be within 10 degrees of it. But ceramic is more generous in what angle it can be shot at before skipping occurs.

Polyethylene seems to be the most generous of all, but carries it's own risks, as detailed on this thread over at akfiles.com (which I think I have linked to before and is far more informative than I will ever be) and in the Military Arms Channel video testing of plates.
Last edited by woodsghost on Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: body armor

Post by RonnyRonin » Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:56 pm

Rebel Pariah wrote:So, I had just about convinced myself round fragmentation could be mitigated in regards to steel
Coatings and pads etc

Then I started thinking all these tests about fragmentation are involving rounds coming straight on at the plate,

I'm not sure about these coatings and covers in regards to a ricochet
Ceramic will catch the round regardless of angle

But I really don't like that ceramic plates have a shelflife
Don't get stuck in analysis paralysis, be comforted by two facts above all else:

1) you will never be shot at (I assume)

2) being shot in ANY of the plates we are discussing will suck WAY less then it would not wearing any of the plates we are discussing.

do your homework by all means, and endless discussion is intellectually stimulating (I'm coming back once I've read all the links previous posters threw up) but the best plate is the one you're wearing, I prioritized comfort and price because I'm going to be wearing them way more then I'm going to be getting shot at in them and an extra $100 in top ramen is more likely to save my life then and extra $100 in rifle plates, and now that I have the something that is better then nothing I can take my time in deciding what the absolute best option is because I already have my basis covered. I have very strong biases that I feel free to share with the world, but I'm just happy when responsible people invest in armor of any kind.

I'm tempted to keep waiting because my money is that within 5 years we will have sub-3lb triple-curve plates that float and stop m193 and m855, probably at a reasonable price as well. I think we are just one materials science jump away from fantastic armor, possibly even custom molded to individuals. maybe in 10 years we will have level 3 soft armor, how sweet would that be?
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Re: body armor

Post by Blacksheep » Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:33 pm

Analysis paralysis, that kinda sums it up at the moment lol
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Re: body armor

Post by RonnyRonin » Sat Sep 27, 2014 1:46 pm

I have a buddy with steel plates that is now becoming worried about spall, I'm going to try to find a few sheets of kevlar on eBay and recommend he glue then to the front of the plate. when they are loose sheets (not in a panel or vest) they seem quite cheap and are sold for hobby use (model rockets I think). I think only a few layers is all that would be needed and would be much lighter then trying to use a full kevlar panel or possibly even a line-x coating.
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Re: body armor

Post by woodsghost » Sat Sep 27, 2014 2:02 pm

RonnyRonin wrote:I have a buddy with steel plates that is now becoming worried about spall, I'm going to try to find a few sheets of kevlar on eBay and recommend he glue then to the front of the plate. when they are loose sheets (not in a panel or vest) they seem quite cheap and are sold for hobby use (model rockets I think). I think only a few layers is all that would be needed and would be much lighter then trying to use a full kevlar panel or possibly even a line-x coating.
My memory of the threads I could not find links to on building your own kevlar spall catchers says they found they needed 3-5 sheets. I would lean towards 5+. Especially since my memory is not perfect.
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Re: body armor

Post by Blacksheep » Sat Sep 27, 2014 2:04 pm

Bullet proof me has then pre made for like 30$ I think
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Re: body armor

Post by KGBrick » Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:44 pm

I'm only an Internet Expert in body armor, so I have to admit that all this worry over splatter (not, as I understand it, true spalling off the back side of a plate?) is confusing to me. All of the videos I've seen on modern steel plates with a coating show the coating containing splatter for far longer than it would take for you to be disabled by hits around the plate or to deal with the threat.

What am I missing? Do those coatings actually not work? Are we talking about old uncoated plates (and if so, why not buy the quite cheap new coated plates)? Is this simply paranoia?

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Re: body armor

Post by Blacksheep » Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:39 pm

I think there is mistrust of linex style coating at the moment

I've 90% decided I am gunna get built up coated steel and get backer panels later
I like that the steel stops 855( or is it 885... W/e) much easier that ceramic

I've decided I'm don't need to over think the ricochet issue, it's more likely to go left or right, than up or down, and left or right is more fleshy than serious

I really just can't commit to $400+ of something that's only good for 5 years
Maybe once I have better carbine training, but still
This is a just in case kind of thing, not something I truely Forsee the need of
Mostly just something to check off the list of the "cool" gear rig

I have yet to even find a hands on review of the ceramic from Bulletproofme
I did find one of similar spec And comperable price, seemed very cheaply built
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Re: body armor

Post by Blacksheep » Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:31 am

Orders made

I managed to get 2 ar500 curved plates
(One built up for front)

For a grand total of 120$

My buddy managed to get a deal, I'll explain once I have plates in hand
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Re: body armor

Post by Armor76 » Tue May 19, 2015 11:43 pm

Alright, this looks like a good thread to necro on the topic.

When it comes to the AR500 plate, Is the optional "extra thick" coating of anti spalling material really necessary or is it just an opportunity for an added charge?

If it was necessary, why wouldn't it be standard?

Sorry if this has been answered already and I missed it. Just point me in the right direction.
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Re: body armor

Post by Stercutus » Wed May 20, 2015 12:19 am

Armor76 wrote:Alright, this looks like a good thread to necro on the topic.

When it comes to the AR500 plate, Is the optional "extra thick" coating of anti spalling material really necessary or is it just an opportunity for an added charge?

If it was necessary, why wouldn't it be standard?

Sorry if this has been answered already and I missed it. Just point me in the right direction.
You can just go to Lowes and buy a can of the stuff yourself for about $10. This is enough to coat 3-4 plates. Nothing is necessary. Not even the plates themselves.
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Re: body armor

Post by Blacksheep » Wed May 20, 2015 9:49 am

They've tested it, the regular has minor splatter,
The built up has Zero

It's not that they wanna make more money off you, it's that they are giving people a super basic option
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Re: body armor

Post by jor-el » Wed May 20, 2015 11:34 pm

Blacksheep wrote:Fwiw
Bullet proof me . Com says old surplus vests test just fine 10+ years afterwards

But they ARE selling them, so take it with a grain of salt
One of the Garland Texas ISIS active shooters was wearing what I would guess was an old surplus vest.

Maybe it wasn't cared for properly, or it was one of those level 1 vests from the 70's, but there is a hole in the vest front. Given that the cop was armed with a .45 Glock, that a .45 ACP with hollow points penetrated I find astonishing.

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Re: body armor

Post by Marek L » Fri Aug 14, 2015 9:14 am

I am new here. My ever first e-mail here. Welcome to Everybody))
Guys, it exist no hundert percent protection.
Was shot four times waering the protection.
First time, in Sarajevo, me just flying after the hit. Just flying in the air.
It was SWD.
Second time Dagestan.
Loosed concious at once.
What its was?
An old hunter rifle))
But the hit. Just old hunter rifle))
Was hitten two times during protection of the ships.
But... this is nothing, belive me, guys, to be hit by 5,65 NATO
in comparison to be hit by 7,62 SWD or this f.. hunting rifle
is just nothing.
It exists no protection)) Its only my experience)) I know))
but the protection does not exist when you are facing 7,62 SWD projectile))
You are just flying in the air after the hit, all bones in the chest broken.
Against rifle ammunition is no ballistic protection ))

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