CCW locked or unlocked?

Handgun, Pistol and Revolver topics

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How do you CCW?

Chambered - DA decocked with manual safety
0
No votes
Chambered - DA decocked without manual safety
5
19%
Chambered - DA with manual safety (no decocker)
0
No votes
Chambered - DA without manual safety (no decocker)
3
11%
Chambered - SA decocked with manual safety
0
No votes
Chambered - SA decocked without manual safety
1
4%
Chambered - SA with manual safety (no decocker)
1
4%
Chambered - SA without manual safety (no decocker)
0
No votes
Chambered - Striker fire with manual safety
1
4%
Chambered - Striker fire without manual safety
12
44%
Revolver - Hammer on empty chamber
0
No votes
Revolver - Hammer on loaded chamber
3
11%
This is too much trouble and My Little Ponies is on
1
4%
 
Total votes: 27

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CCW locked or unlocked?

Post by kaligaran » Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:20 am

Hey ZSers, I searched for this topic with no results so hopefully this topic hasn't been beaten to death. I hesitated from posting this question on a gun board since usually they turn into arguments and derail really quickly. Hopefully that doesn't happen on this thread too. :ohdear:

Quick background: I've been licenced to carry for 12 years. For the last couple of years my carry weapon has been a Taurus PT709 slim. It's like a glock in that it does not have a decocker but it does have a trigger safety. I normally carry cocked without the manual safety.
I also use a crossbreed IWB holsterwhich is kydex and custom molded for this gun. So it can't 'fall out' or move around while being carried.
I had chosen to not use the manul safety b/c I have seen too many videos and read lots of horror stories about people pulling their weapon for defense and in the moment, either being so scared they 'forget' to take the safety off or just fumbling with it without luck and thus not able to properly defend themselves.

The recent story where the cop accientally shoots a woman that 'hugged' him while his gun while in his waistband. NOTE: the details of this incident are few and far between so no real conclusion to draw, but regardless it really has me rather freaked out.

I'm considering starting to carry with the manual safety and practicing drawing and taking the safety off which currently is rather clumbsy and unnatural for me to do when I draw. I'm concerned about needing to do that in a life-threatening situation. The last thing I want is to pull my defensive weapon out and it not go boom.

I'm curious for those of you that CCW and keep one in the pipe on a gun without a decocker, what kind of safety (if any) do you use and why?

Edit to add poll
Last edited by kaligaran on Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:15 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: CCW locked or unlocked?

Post by Trebor » Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:43 am

Ok, first off, if you are going to carry a gun for defense, carry it with a loaded chamber. You have no guarantee that you'll have both hands free to draw and work the action at the moment of crisis.

That said, the decision on whether you want a gun with a manual safety or a gun without a manual safety is up to you. If you have a gun with a manual safety, and want to carry it with the safety "OFF", make sure the gun is safe to carry in that condition. Some are, some aren't.

I'm not familiar enough with that Taurus model to make any recommendations. (Other than to ask how many rounds you've put through it and have you run it through a training class or a competition. I've seen enough Taurus's fail to not them myself unless the specific gun has already been "run hard" and proven to work under those conditions.)

EDIT: As to what is, and isn't, safe, if the gun has an exposed hammer, a safety, and does NOT have a decocker (1911, Browning High Power), I would NOT carry it with the hammer back (and the safety OFF). I'd carry it with the safety ON.

If it's a DA/SA with a decocker, I'd decock, and then either just use the safety as a decocker (safety on "FIRE") or apply the safety (safet on "SAFE") either way is safe.

For a striker fired pistol, most don't have external manual safeties. If the design does include a manual safety, I'd most likely figure it's there for a reason, and would probably use it. (And, to make it confusing, some striker guns, like the S&W M&P have versions with and without a manual safety).
Last edited by Trebor on Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CCW locked or unlocked?

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:12 am

Background: Every Marine worth a damn knows that you don't set your phaser to kill until it's time to use it.

Here's a simple training exercise to make sure you never have to be afraid of drawing and forgetting to drop the safety. Every time you go from "alert" (pistol below chest level and not aimed) to "ready" the safety goes off. Drop from "ready" (aimed in, or just below plane of sight) o "alert" and the safety goes on.

Try it at home with no bullets, just drawing and bringing it up and down. Gun goes up, safety goes off. Gun goes down, safety goes on. do ti until you are bored. Then do it for another hour. Make sure you're suign this time to practice your draw-stroke.

Key factor: weapon does not go on fire until it is at least at a 45* angle away from you and your "weak" hand is behind the plane of the muzzle. Enough cops have shot themselves in the leg/hand this way to make it part of the USMC training regimen (which for pistols is nearly non-existent.)

I'm gonna try to make and then post a video at some point. All depends on the internet behavior.
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Re: CCW locked or unlocked?

Post by kaligaran » Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:52 am

Posted from phone, pls excuse typos.

@trebor. Thanks for the response! I think my post may have not been worded well. I'm curious as to what guns other people ccw, how they carry and their reasonings. I do appreciate your opinions on the types of carry you mention. What carry weapon do you use and what were your reasons for choosing it and how you carry it?

@doc. I do draw/dry fire drills at least once a week at home. That's some of the best advice that can be given to anyone that defensive carries so I'm glad you brought it up. Mind sharing your carry weapon of choice and how you carry?


I've never addressed a firearms group about how they carry and why so that's why I made this post.
Like you guys I take gun safety very seriously (ccw'ing for 12+ years and shooting for 20) and often re-evaluate my weapons, related gear and my interaction with them all to ensure my safety (for defensive use) and others safety (due to my handling). This is just another of my re-evaluations and I wanted to hear from others that defensively carry :)

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Re: CCW locked or unlocked?

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:22 am

I usually carry an M4 these days on a VTAC sling :rofl:

Back home it's a G21SF, first round out of the mag gets hand cycled into the chamber. It's a habit I picked up from shootign 1911s, and I never saw the need to drop it with a 14-round .45ACP.

Carry is either man-purse carry (I'm working on making a hide-away holster...someday) or more frequently something between a 2 o'clock and 3 o'clock carry in a Galco IWB/OWB. OWB is my favorite, with a simple (cheap) but fashionable button-up shirt over a t-shirt. I can rock that set-up in FL in the summer with no problems. Winter usually means a jacket, which makes things easier.
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Re: CCW locked or unlocked?

Post by squinty » Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:25 am

Double action or DA/SA I carry hammer down, safety off. As safe as a DA revolver. Striker fired pistols - no safety. Really only single action pistols would I carry with the safety on. (1911, Ruger mark III are my only single action pistols.)

A pistol kept in a rigid holster that covers the trigger guard, and care when holstering/unholstering (and in the case of DA/SA guns, making sure you decock)) should be safe enough for carry.

The story about the holstered gun that "went off" because of a hug stinks to high heaven for a lot of reasons.
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Re: CCW locked or unlocked?

Post by Trebor » Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:58 am

My primary carry gun is a SIG 239 9mm. I originally bought it for my wife, and when she didn't like it, kept it to use as a training gun for students. I didn't start carrying it until after I used it in a Sig Arms Academy instructor training class and discovered how well it could really shoot.

(I didn't buy it to be a carry gun for me. I kind of "fell into" using it. I would like to replace it with a S&W M&P Compact, but don't have the cash for a new gun right now. I'd like to switch because I think I shoot striker fired guns better than DA/SA guns, but right now I have what I have)

It's a 8 shot DA/SA with a decocker. I carry loaded with an extra round in the chamber and, of course, decocked.

My previous carry gun was a S&W Model 65 revolver with a 3" barrel and loaded with .38 +P ammo. I switched to the SIG because the SIG was slimmer, carried three extra rounds over the Smith, and was faster to reload. (I still use the Smith as a "spare" carry gun for when the SIG is down for maintenance, etc).

My "pocket carry" gun is a S&W Model 49 J-frame revolver. I sometimes carry it as a back up and also sometimes carry it instead of the SIG. (Maybe 20% of the time).

EDIT: I like the simplicity of a gun without a manual safety. I like just having to draw, point, and shoot. I actually now prefer to have a trigger with the same trigger pull for every shot over a DA/SA trigger. I just don't have the cash to switch carry guns right now and the SIG does work for me.
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Re: CCW locked or unlocked?

Post by squinty » Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:27 am

The Sig 239 is an awesome little pistol if you ask me (you didn't, why would you? but I still felt like telling you :wink: )
But if you look at the prices a used 9mm p239 fetches on gunsamerica, vs. a gen 3 Glock 19, they're pretty comparable. You might not have to spend all that much if you're willing to part with the sig.
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Re: CCW locked or unlocked?

Post by phil_in_cs » Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:03 am

FYI, the current story on the Detroit case is that he had a soft neoprene holster that didn't protect the trigger. Pistol was an M&P. She was either kneeling and giving him a BJ or was otherwise underneath him while he was standing, and was fondling his waist when her hands managed to find the gun. She fondled the holster, discharging it gun. There were a number of witnesses, but due to the nature of what's happening they aren't publicizing all the results.

A secure holster is always needed. My Glock has a trigger safety and that's it. Press the trigger and it fires. An M&P is similar. With either, you must protect the trigger. If you protect the trigger you won't have problems.
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Re: CCW locked or unlocked?

Post by Trebor » Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:33 am

squinty wrote:The Sig 239 is an awesome little pistol if you ask me (you didn't, why would you? but I still felt like telling you :wink: )
But if you look at the prices a used 9mm p239 fetches on gunsamerica, vs. a gen 3 Glock 19, they're pretty comparable. You might not have to spend all that much if you're willing to part with the sig.
I gotta hang onto the SIG. I still use it as a training gun and many of my female students especially like it. Even if I got a M&P Compact, which would fill much of the same role, I still need it as an example of a DA/SA setup with a decocker. It's the only one of that type I have. (The CZ-75 doesn't count, as it doesn't have a decocker and the Makarov doesn't count as I ONLY use 9x19mm for centerfire training autos)

I do have a Glock 19, btw, but I hate it. I spent a year with it as my primary gun, including teaching, taking classes, and competition, and I still shoot it for shit. Pretty much every other pistol I'm dead on, with the Glock I go back to my old "low and left" problem that I got rid of years ago with everything else.
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Re: CCW locked or unlocked?

Post by Trebor » Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:34 am

phil_in_cs wrote:FYI, the current story on the Detroit case is that he had a soft neoprene holster that didn't protect the trigger. Pistol was an M&P. She was either kneeling and giving him a BJ or was otherwise underneath him while he was standing, and was fondling his waist when her hands managed to find the gun. She fondled the holster, discharging it gun. There were a number of witnesses, but due to the nature of what's happening they aren't publicizing all the results.

.
I've suspected that a BJ was involved, as otherwise nothing made sense. Where did you get your info and has it been confirmed anywhere?
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Re: CCW locked or unlocked?

Post by phil_in_cs » Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:49 am

I will find the links. Free Press confirms the In Waist Band neoprene holster. If he's standing and shoots her in the chest, she has to be kneeling or under him to get shot in the chest. Geometry doesn't work otherwise.
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Re: CCW locked or unlocked?

Post by TheLastOne » Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:50 am

good god, why do they even make nylon holsters? Why not just carry your gun in a friggin bag from the grocery store and secure it to your belt with a rubber band? Bleh.


Do they make a g19sf? I was watching one of colionnoir's youtube vids about the g30sf, and it seemed to have features that solve my problem with the g19. I want to love my 19, but the grip feels like a 2x4 in my hand and I shoot like ass with it. I have medium size hands in mechanix gloves for a reference point, and I think the more narrow upper grip would be great for me on a 19. Google isn't helping me, it just shows the sf where it shows up when the product list is 19/17/21sf (like for holsters). Anyone seen one?


OT,
Yeah, locked and cocked with a proper holster as appropriate for your gun model. I don't know the specific features for your specific pistol; DocTorr summed it up best.
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Re: CCW locked or unlocked?

Post by phil_in_cs » Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:57 am

some links:
http://news.yahoo.com/detroit-mom-quest ... 34842.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Smith & Wesson M&P primarily was designed for police and military use. It does not have a safety switch, but the trigger has to be pulled back completely for the gun to fire, certified firearms instructor Rick Ector said.
Ector said that if properly holstered, the gun cannot be fired accidentally.[Emp Phil]

But Godbee said Parrish's waist holster was made of a soft, neoprene-type material, and it would be possible for the trigger to be pulled while the gun was in it. He also said the barrel direction typically would have been pointing down while holstered.
This link says she was dancing low; the other link isn't working (Detroit Free Press).
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Re: CCW locked or unlocked?

Post by lokifz1 » Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:01 am

Round in chamber, saftey off once its in the holster. If you need it its ready.
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Re: CCW locked or unlocked?

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:01 pm

Slim from is for .45 and (I think) 10mm only. No slim .40, .357, or 9mm frames.
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Re: CCW locked or unlocked?

Post by kaligaran » Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:13 pm

Thanks for the links on that story, I assumed Neoprene holster like a cheap uncle mikes but hadn't heard the updates. Dunno why they even make those. They are so sketchy.
I refuse to use anything but kydex molded for each gun I carry. Once I got one, I can't go back. So sturdy and next to no chance the trigger could ever be touched without intentionally de-holstering.

Thanks for the posts everyone. It's always good to hear what others are carrying and how. Something I've never asked fellow gun owners but just been giving it tons of thoughts.

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Re: CCW locked or unlocked?

Post by kaligaran » Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:24 pm

Off-topic, but some of you mentioned not being familiar with the taurus slim models, I have to say they are great little guns and for the price are hard to beat. So far I've put about 3-4k rounds through it with no problems. When I first got it, I took it to the range immediately prior to cleaning it (yeah yeah, I know...) and had it jam a couple of times. After a full cleaning/lube, nothing but consistent firing and it's not picky about ammo at all.

The only change I made was I purchased some mag extentions just to extend the mag down a half inch or so. I have small hands but it is still more comfortable with them on and it supported my pinky better.

They are small, comfortable, accurate right out of the box. The only thing it doesn't have that I wish it did was a decocker. My Sig SP2022 has one and I love it. The PT709 and PT740 (9mm and 40 respectivly) both have trigger safetys which have a firing pin block for carrying a round chambered like a glock if you don't want to use the manual safety.

So if you're in the market for a nice little carry and dont' want to blow the bank, definitly see about renting one. I would highly recommend them.

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Re: CCW locked or unlocked?

Post by phil_in_cs » Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:16 pm

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... d-her.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And the truth unfolds... delayed a bit since the officer is married. Is married today, anyway, tomorrow being unsure....
Police now say that the girl who was fatally shot by an off-duty officer's gun at a Detroit fish fry was kneeling behind the married man as she danced and touched his waistband.
Detroit officials reported that 24-year-old Adaisha Miller was performing some kind of 'exotic dance' that placed her in the line of fire for the holstered gun.
This theory contradicts the previous idea that she was hugging officer Isaac Parrish from behind when she was shot by a single bullet that went through her lung and heart.
The original story where Ms Miller was standing when she was shot left many with questions because that would not have explained how the angle of the bullet would have hit her from a holstered weapon.
Even though her mother initially said that her daughter could be 'being a little flirty' during the dance with the married officer, she is still not satisfied with the explanation that her daughter was on her knees at the time of her death.
more at the link
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Re: CCW locked or unlocked?

Post by LaserCool » Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:21 pm

Springfield XD9 in a crossbreed holster. One in the pipe at all times, no "safety" other than grip/trigger. The holster covers the trigger so I'm good to go. Grap the gun, point and click.

And I don't let folks "hug" my gunbelt.
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Re: CCW locked or unlocked?

Post by kaligaran » Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:38 pm

Glad more details are coming out and thanks for linking them. I don't get an opportunity to browse the news too often.

The soft holster makes the story much more believable. Definitly negligent carry. :(

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Re: CCW locked or unlocked?

Post by MacWa77ace » Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:53 pm

At work: Walther PPS40 in a Desantis Tuck This II. Striker fire no safety.
Not at work: S&W M&P 45C in a Desantis Tuck This II. Striker fire no safety.

Both at 5 0'clock position. IWB/tucked/canted/chambered. Strong side facing.

Smith and Wesson just came out with what I think is a clone of the PPS. Was thinking about changing to it so the Mag release actuators are the same movement between weapons, but it has a safety and so I'm keeping the PPS40.
http://smithwesson.hqcampaign.com/ps/th ... d-yourself

Anyhow, Here's my safety http://www.youtube.com/embed/bTalnzcO0xk
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Re: CCW locked or unlocked?

Post by kaligaran » Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:18 pm

MacWa77ace wrote:Smith and Wesson just came out with what I think is a clone of the PPS. Was thinking about changing to it so the Mag release actuators are the same movement between weapons, but it has a safety and so I'm keeping the PPS40.
http://smithwesson.hqcampaign.com/ps/th ... d-yourself
You carry exactly how I do.
That S&W you linked looks almost identical to my Taurus and I actually considered this model (an version from about 2-3 years ago not the newer one). The hinged trigger is really odd to me though. I watched a demo video somewhere about the M&P hinged safety compared to a Glock style trigger safety. The M&P doesn't appear to be 'snag proof' at all. Granted, no trigger safety is perfect if the trigger is getting touched and it should never get 'snagged' in the first place, but if you have a built in safety, I would expect it should work as intended.
Someone mentioned in an earlier post that the M&P does come in two versions - with and without safety if that helps at all with your purchase decision. :)

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Re: CCW locked or unlocked?

Post by MacWa77ace » Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:45 pm

kaligaran wrote:
You carry exactly how I do.
That S&W you linked looks almost identical to my Taurus and I actually considered this model (an version from about 2-3 years ago not the newer one). The hinged trigger is really odd to me though. I watched a demo video somewhere about the M&P hinged safety compared to a Glock style trigger safety. The M&P doesn't appear to be 'snag proof' at all. Granted, no trigger safety is perfect if the trigger is getting touched and it should never get 'snagged' in the first place, but if you have a built in safety, I would expect it should work as intended.
Someone mentioned in an earlier post that the M&P does come in two versions - with and without safety if that helps at all with your purchase decision. :)
The trigger safety is really only to prevent firing if the weapon is dropped, not snagged or pulled. You don't even feel the hinge and I never even thought about it until now. To me its un-noticeable.

There are versions of the M&P series that have a safety. When I bought the 45C [compact] version there was no safety available at that time for that model. I actually had a S&W booklet that had all models all specs in a 'matrix' so you could compare features. Most of the full size models you could get with or without.

ETA: The M&P45C isn't so compact with a double stack mag, so with the clothes I wear at work, it imprints with my style of carry.
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