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Best Round/ Gun for Ursus Arctos Horribilis

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 1:44 pm
by Stercutus
I am worried in the PAW that bears will wander down into my area looking to make me or my family into a bear snack here in the deep South. The law requires that I conceal carry (I have permit) but I am unsure what gun and round would best serve to provide the best protection for me and my loved ones.

My options that I consider workable are:

On Hand:

- 1911 in .45 ACP (Now these are Kimbers so without factory service they will likely break in a few months of constant use in the PAW)
- Glock 22 (The .40 being marginal for people would likely be completely unsuited for bears)

Possible Purchase

- Dessert Eagle in .50 AE

- .44 Remington Magnum in the 6" barrel

If anyone can please share their experiences in fighting bears with these weapons (or calibers) I would like to rely on your experiences to help me make a decision.

Re: Best Round/ Gun for Ursus Arctos Horribilis

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 1:47 pm
by Gingerbread Man
Blacksmith wrote: Dessert Eagle in .50 AE
Mmmm, Dessert Eagle, in 50 AE, sounds very tasty.

Lol. I think a 44 mag in either a Ruger smoke wagon or a Rossi M92 swing loader.

Re: Best Round/ Gun for Ursus Arctos Horribilis

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 2:10 pm
by squinty
If I were to wander into an area frequented by bears, the only handgun in my collection that I would feel at all comfortable with would be the Smith & Wesson 629 w/4" barrel. I have a Hogue "tamer" grip on it, same grip Hogue sells for Smith's .460 and .500 revolvers, but I am unsure if I'll keep it because while it does soak up recoil, it also makes the grip a bit larger than I like, and puts the base knuckle of my right thumb sort of more in the way of the gun as it rises with each shot.

I don't think the .40 or .45 will offer penetration enough for bear skull. I personally don't shoot anything harder kicking than a .44 magnum, and I think in the event of a reactive "self defense" shot against a bear, I wouldn't want a long barrel or a safety to fumble with. So even with the trade off of increased recoil and report, shortened sight radius and reduced range/terminal ballistics, I'd go with the 4" barrel. I'd rather hunt or target shoot with a 6" or longer barrel, but if it's a gun I'll have to get out of a holster in time to shoot a bear charging down on me, with the attendant shaky hands and reduced fine motor skills that go along with the brick shitting fear I'd feel in such a circumstance, I'd want an easier draw. It's also a bit more concealable.

Don't know enough about the ballistics of .50 AE, but I'd assume that it would do anything a similar bullet from a .44 mag would do. The revolver might be able to handle some types of bullet shape that the semiauto would have trouble with, IDK. So, yeah, my vote: 4" 44 magnum, with appropriate big game ammunition.

I have no actual experience fighting bears with handguns, unfortunately. Nor am I likely to ever acquire any such, but maybe google will turn up accounts of people who've survived bear attacks, that mention the tools they used.

Maybe some of the lead or jacketed flat nose rounds like this:
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=6" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: Best Round/ Gun for Ursus Arctos Horribilis

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 2:29 pm
by AKFTW
Haven't fought any bears, but I'd take a good hard look at the Glock 20. 10mm shooting a hot 200gr hard-cast projectile is what I would choose. http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l= ... tail&p=219

Glock 20L for maximum effectiveness and style points 8-)
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Re: Best Round/ Gun for Ursus Arctos Horribilis

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 2:39 pm
by raptor
Several years ago I was traveling to Alaska for business/pleasure. I answered this very same question by purchasing a Winchester Model 70 in .375 H&H. Overkill I agree but so what.

I think that rifle would be hard to conceal however.

IMO there is no handgun I would use to deal with this apex predator. That said If I had to, I would want a revolver chambered either a .460 S&W or .50 S&W and at least a 6 inch barrel to maintain velocity.

Even so I would much rather have a bolt action .30-06 with a high quality 180gr - 200gr solid or controlled expansion slug than either hand gun. Rather I should say I would be equally unhappy with this rifle or the handgun.

In either case the ammo will obvious be the key to making the chosen caliber work. Any of these will work but like everything shot placement will be the key...that an giving the critters a wide berth if you encounter them.

Re: Best Round/ Gun for Ursus Arctos Horribilis

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 3:19 pm
by Dawgboy
OK, I have seen those things "up close and personal" picking through the trash dump in Barrow, and I would not want to go against one without one of these:

Image

Re: Best Round/ Gun for Ursus Arctos Horribilis

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 4:21 pm
by BullOnParade
How big of bears are we talking about in the south? I think the general consensus (I've done a lot of reading, zero field experience) is .357 mag being the minimum for a small bear in North America (especially out of a handgun). I've also been told by a member at my range, not to shoot at a bear with a fmj .303b. Them mofo's get mad, or so I'm told.

But knowing your local bears is important. For example, the most likely bear I would come across in my AO, is a black bear. These bears are small (by comparison to other breeds on the continent), and are scavengers. This means, if I were to come across a black bear, and she decides she doesn't want to flee (black bears usually flee, unless they feel threatened), I need to stand my ground, appear as big as possible, and make as much noise as possible. Running suggests I am lower on the food chain, and she will give chase. Playing dead suggests I'm an easy meal (because they're scavengers) and she will eat me. YMMV, but know the breeds you're up against.

Re: Best Round/ Gun for Ursus Arctos Horribilis

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 4:31 pm
by RickOShea
A Clark .460 Rowland kit for your 1911: http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/rowland.htm

Re: Best Round/ Gun for Ursus Arctos Horribilis

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 4:35 pm
by Vicarious_Lee
Okay first of all I didn't know there was a Glock 20L, so my boner thanks you for that. This is now the second Glock that's on my "must get" list.

Secondly, if you live in The South, you're not likely to EVER see brown bears, and the blakc bears you se will be like 90-200 pounds and very shy. A 400lb black bear is an absolute trophy these days.

Thirdly, Glock 20L fuck yeah.

Re: Best Round/ Gun for Ursus Arctos Horribilis

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 4:39 pm
by RickOShea
Blacksmith wrote:I am worried in the PAW that bears will wander down into my area looking to make me or my family into a bear snack here in the deep South. The law requires that I conceal carry (I have permit) but I am unsure what gun and round would best serve to provide the best protection for me and my loved ones.
Keep in mind that our Alabama grizzlies are just as scrawny and puny as our whitetail deer. :wink:

Re: Best Round/ Gun for Ursus Arctos Horribilis

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 4:45 pm
by raxar
Dawgboy wrote:OK, I have seen those things "up close and personal" picking through the trash dump in Barrow, and I would not want to go against one without one of these:

Image

those would work a lot better if you stuck a rocket in them....

Re: Best Round/ Gun for Ursus Arctos Horribilis

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 4:56 pm
by Stercutus
Secondly, if you live in The South, you're not likely to EVER see brown bears
Well now, we are not likely to see zombies either but they does not stop everyone from getting ready for it.
A Clark .460 Rowland kit for your 1911: http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/rowland.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I like the way you think young man. Now will that effect the MIM frame on my Kimber? Do you recommend bracing materials to keep it from cracking? I am liking the ballistics on the 185 gr load.

Re: Best Round/ Gun for Ursus Arctos Horribilis

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 5:06 pm
by RickOShea
raxar wrote:
Dawgboy wrote:OK, I have seen those things "up close and personal" picking through the trash dump in Barrow, and I would not want to go against one without one of these:

Image

those would work a lot better if you stuck a rocket in them....
Ummm....That's a Carl Gustav "recoilless rifle". It's loaded from the rear, so you can't tell in that pic whether it's loaded or not.

Re: Best Round/ Gun for Ursus Arctos Horribilis

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 5:15 pm
by Dooms
Just to clarify, the frames on Kimber 1911's are not MIM'ed. MIM is used only in small parts. The frames and slides are machined from raw forgings/blocks of their respective material.

Re: Best Round/ Gun for Ursus Arctos Horribilis

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 5:20 pm
by RickOShea
Blacksmith wrote:
RickOShea wrote:A Clark .460 Rowland kit for your 1911: http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/rowland.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I like the way you think young man. Now will that effect the MIM frame on my Kimber? Do you recommend bracing materials to keep it from cracking? I am liking the ballistics on the 185 gr load.
Clark has a list near the bottom of the page of which 1911s he recommends for the conversion, and which ones he doesn't. The Kimber is on the "good-to-go" list.

Matter of fact, Clark sells Kimber series II pistols with the .460 conversion already installed: http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/rowlandkimber.htm

Re: Best Round/ Gun for Ursus Arctos Horribilis

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 5:45 pm
by raxar
RickOShea wrote: Ummm....That's a Carl Gustav "recoilless rifle". It's loaded from the rear, so you can't tell in that pic whether it's loaded or not.

In all fairness they do look an awful lot like an RPG

Re: Best Round/ Gun for Ursus Arctos Horribilis

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 6:01 pm
by RickOShea
raxar wrote:
RickOShea wrote: Ummm....That's a Carl Gustav "recoilless rifle". It's loaded from the rear, so you can't tell in that pic whether it's loaded or not.

In all fairness an RPG (in service since 1949) looks an awful lot like a Carl Gustav recoilless rifle (in service from 1948).
FTFY. :wink:

Re: Best Round/ Gun for Ursus Arctos Horribilis

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 6:52 pm
by Caenus
AKFTW wrote:Haven't fought any bears, but I'd take a good hard look at the Glock 20. 10mm shooting a hot 200gr hard-cast projectile is what I would choose. http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l= ... tail&p=219

Glock 20L for maximum effectiveness and style points 8-)
Image
Seconded. Hi-cap, lots-o power with the Buffs.

Re: Best Round/ Gun for Ursus Arctos Horribilis

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 8:38 pm
by cemoulton
I see your 10mm and raise you a .40 super http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.40_Super" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: Best Round/ Gun for Ursus Arctos Horribilis

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 8:53 pm
by Caenus
cemoulton wrote:I see your 10mm and raise you a .40 super http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.40_Super" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Yeah, but the 10mm is more common, can buy a wide range of affordable quality pistols in the caliber, and versatile.

Re: Best Round/ Gun for Ursus Arctos Horribilis

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 8:59 pm
by Stercutus
Yeah, but the 10mm is more common, can buy a wide range of affordable quality pistols in the caliber, and versatile.
That is a good point. I would like to be able to scavenge rounds from the undigested matter inside the GI tract of the grizzly. I worry a little about the fact that whatever gun and ammo he ate would have come from an inferior weapon that was incapable of stopping him. I am unsure if that is the right course.

Re: Best Round/ Gun for Ursus Arctos Horribilis

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 9:16 pm
by Caenus
Blacksmith wrote:
Yeah, but the 10mm is more common, can buy a wide range of affordable quality pistols in the caliber, and versatile.
That is a good point. I would like to be able to scavenge rounds from the undigested matter inside the GI tract of the grizzly. I worry a little about the fact that whatever gun and ammo he ate would have come from an inferior weapon that was incapable of stopping him. I am unsure if that is the right course.
In that case I whole heartedly encourage you to purchase the "dessert eagle" you listed as an option. It is by far the most reliable, packable pistol ever made. You won't have to scavenge bullets from a carcass, all the next person will have to do is dig it out of his poop and clear the ftf.

Re: Best Round/ Gun for Ursus Arctos Horribilis

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 9:41 pm
by RickOShea
Caenus wrote:
In that case I whole heartedly encourage you to purchase the "dessert eagle" you listed as an option.
Aw shit, here we go again....."cake or pie".

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Re: Best Round/ Gun for Ursus Arctos Horribilis

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 10:04 pm
by Stercutus
Aw shit, here we go again....."cake or pie".
Off Topic- That reminds me. There was a tragedy of epic proportion tonight. The wife made an excellent chocolate meringue pie and set it out to set before the preacher and his family came over for dinner. The dog came and ate all the meringue off the top when no one was looking. OMFG, the dog was in so much trouble (as well as fat and happy).

Mrs. Blacksmith was NOT amused. Her pies are home made and not just some jello dumped into a pre-made pie crust. She whipped up some brownies to cover it but damn, that was pie sure missed.