Glock 19 or 23

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Glock 19 or 23

Post by azstinger » Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:13 pm

Me and the wife have narrowed down our choices to either the glock 23 or 19. We shot and liked each and we're equally accurate and comfortable with both. She has left the decision up to me..

Only big drawback I have found on the 23 is that you can't run +p or +p+ ammo, unless glock fixed that problem? I like that with a drop in barrel it can shoot 9mm or .357 SIG.

The 19 has the cost of 9mm and the additional mag capacity.

Just curious what your thoughts are on these two?

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Re: Glock 19 or 23

Post by ROCK6 » Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:41 pm

I’ve ended up owning both and it really comes down to preference of the caliber. Honestly, I would probably just go with the 19, but you bring up a good point about getting a 9mm drop in barrel for the 23; which is what I still need to do.

For those that are LE and have issued .40S&W, it makes sense to stay with that. I’ve never had a problem with my 23, but I still think the 19 has the better track record. I don’t think there’s that much price difference for practice ammo…so again, it’s back to the choice of preference. I’ve fired some pretty stout hardcast ammo out of my 23, which is why I prefer it to my 19 when backpacking and in the outdoors. If your wife is comfortable with either and accurate with the .40S&W, most would say go with the bigger caliber. Mag capacity is pretty moot and only a couple rounds difference; with mag extension (+2, Arrendondo +5, etc.) you can pretty much even out.

Not too much help, but if I had to start from scratch, it would be the Glock 19 between the two…just my preference. If I had some experience with my 23 and 9mm drop in barrel running smooth, I may very well consider that as my choice. Don’t forget a good .22LR conversion kit for at least one!

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Re: Glock 19 or 23

Post by AS556 » Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:43 pm

The reason as far as I can see that you can't shoot .40 +P out a Glock is because SAAMI has not set a PSI limit for that cartridge in +P yet and .40 +P is basically non existent anyway.If I understand what that means correctly then you shouldn't shoot anything labeled +P in .40 anyway because theres no way to tell if the PSI is going to exceed what your gun is rated for until SAAMI regulates it.

Lastly, take it from a brand new Glock owner.Get the 23.I'm already kicking myself for getting a 26 instead of 27 or 33.I want a Glock in 9mm,.40, and .357 and now that is basically going to cost me 1500 dollars.I say get the 23 and the other barrels and you'll be happy I'm sure.

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Re: Glock 19 or 23

Post by Domino » Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:53 pm

You can always convert the 23 to a 9X19 but you can't the other way around without a new slide and ejector. That said, I have the 19 and I am not the least bit interested in the 23.
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Re: Glock 19 or 23

Post by 400 Grains » Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:50 pm

Glock 19.

Virtually the same terminal performance, (save .40 having slightly better performance through barriers), with less recoil, less stress on the gun, more capacity, and lower cost of ammo.

Not sure why .40 exists, except to make some folks think they're carrying a .45.

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Re: Glock 19 or 23

Post by AKFTW » Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:05 am

400 Grains wrote:Glock 19.

Virtually the same terminal performance, (save .40 having slightly better performance through barriers), with less recoil, less stress on the gun, more capacity, and lower cost of ammo.

Not sure why .40 exists, except to make some folks think they're carrying a .45.
Only real reason .40 exists is because the FBI were like "YEAH 10mm!...oh wait, we actually have to have everybody qual with that...let's make the powder charge weaker so everyone can shoot it better." Then S&W was like, "why not shorten the case since you're not loading it to it's potential anyway? We can use 9mm frame pistols to shoot it and they will be smaller and more controllable, YEAH!" The Glock came out with the Glock 22 before S&W could even make their own pistol to fire their round...burn.

Then hollow point designs got better and now 9mm, .40, and .45 all have comparable terminal performance with quality ammo. Except the 9mm wins because it has more common ammo, cheaper practice ammo, less recoil, and more capacity than either of the two.
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Re: Glock 19 or 23

Post by ancient_serpent » Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:54 am

I say go with the 19. My wife carries a 23 and like it very much and I have a 19 but if we could only have one, I'd say the 19.
Tha cost savings in training ammunition is a good thing, the 9mm is a good defensive cartridge in any modern design hollowpoint and the Glock design is reliable and very easy to learn.

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Re: Glock 19 or 23

Post by Kutter_0311 » Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:56 am

AKFTW summed up the .40 niche pretty well. Do you foresee shooting through cars?

The FBI lost some guys to a pair of prior-service murdering crooks, and their big take-away was that the issued sidearm couldn't punch through cars and kill the BG's. Never mind that the BG's had better combat training and had already successfully bypassed the instinct not to kill other people. Oh, and long guns...

9mm will do what you want, and it's cheaper so you can train more.

.40 doesn't do anything good 9mm won't do, these days. Except pound your hands a bit more...
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Re: Glock 19 or 23

Post by 400 Grains » Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:03 am

AKFTW wrote: Then hollow point designs got better and now 9mm, .40, and .45 all have comparable terminal performance with quality ammo. Except the 9mm wins because it has more common ammo, cheaper practice ammo, less recoil, and more capacity than either of the two.
Actually, .40 and 9mm perform pretty similarly. .45 has markedly better terminal performance.

I still think 9mm is a better choice when capacity, recoil, sizes of guns, weight and cost of ammo, etc., are taken into account.
Last edited by 400 Grains on Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Glock 19 or 23

Post by 400 Grains » Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:12 am

AKFTW wrote:
400 Grains wrote:Glock 19.

Virtually the same terminal performance, (save .40 having slightly better performance through barriers), with less recoil, less stress on the gun, more capacity, and lower cost of ammo.

Not sure why .40 exists, except to make some folks think they're carrying a .45.
Only real reason .40 exists is because the FBI were like "YEAH 10mm!...oh wait, we actually have to have everybody qual with that...let's make the powder charge weaker so everyone can shoot it better." Then S&W was like, "why not shorten the case since you're not loading it to it's potential anyway? We can use 9mm frame pistols to shoot it and they will be smaller and more controllable, YEAH!" The Glock came out with the Glock 22 before S&W could even make their own pistol to fire their round...burn.
My question was rhetorical in nature. I'm familiar with the history of the development of the cartridge. My comment had more to do with why people think the cartridge will do more than it does.

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Re: Glock 19 or 23

Post by Gingerbread Man » Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:55 am

Glock 19.
9mm


45 ACP

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59GC2hAh ... 8EofA00%3D" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A difference I do not see.
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Re: Glock 19 or 23

Post by squinty » Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:59 am

Regular Guy wrote:Glock 19.
9mm


45 ACP


A difference I do not see.
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Re: Glock 19 or 23

Post by Redeyes » Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:47 am

I have the Glock 23 and it has been great. I wish I had bought the Glock 19 because a case of .40 is around a $100 more than a case of 9mm. I know that you can convert the Glock 23 to 9mm, but all the accounts I have heard say that your reliability suffers a bit.
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Re: Glock 19 or 23

Post by squinty » Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:04 am

Glock 19, w/ standard pressure premium self defense ammo. I shoot a lot of .45, but if I were shopping today it would be for a 9mm, and I'll be trading out in the near future. This is just subjective, but I prefer the recoil of either 9mm or .45 ACP to .40, not sure why.
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Re: Glock 19 or 23

Post by UndeadInfidel » Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:08 am

Regular Guy wrote:A difference I do not see.
You might need some new glasses. There's a sizable difference in the cavity, both temporary and permanent. Consider the fact that the expansion/cavitation takes place in 3D space, and a relatively small difference in diameter is a larger difference in volume.

Sure, both are going to hurt... but I'm not sure I'm quite ready to swap out to 9mm. (although I have considered it)
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Re: Glock 19 or 23

Post by Gingerbread Man » Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:29 am

UndeadInfidel wrote:
Regular Guy wrote:A difference I do not see.
You might need some new glasses. There's a sizable difference in the cavity, both temporary and permanent. Consider the fact that the expansion/cavitation takes place in 3D space, and a relatively small difference in diameter is a larger difference in volume.

Sure, both are going to hurt... but I'm not sure I'm quite ready to swap out to 9mm. (although I have considered it)
Okay, if that little bit makes a difference in your mind, cool. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. BTW, the was a standard 9mm and not a +P.

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Re: Glock 19 or 23

Post by 400 Grains » Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:10 pm

Temporary wound cavities at pistol velocities have little correlation to terminal performance. These are not rifle rounds.

.45's greater sectional density allows deeper penetration even after larger expansion than .40 or 9mm. That crushes more tissue and has higher likelihood of reaching vital organs.

With good ammo, all three cartridges will do a good job, but .45 clearly has an advantage in performance. Individuals must make their own determination in comparing the recoil, capacity, cost etc., but in my opinion, .40 shouldn't even be in consideration. Even .40's slight advantage over 9mm in barrier performance can vary depending on ammunition used. Some 9mm rounds will do better than some .40's.

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Re: Glock 19 or 23

Post by zoiders » Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:31 pm

I think you mean it simply has a bullet of greater volume, it's still of the same density.

"Greater Sectional Density" would suggest it's made from depleted uranium or something rather than plain old lead and copper.

Mass and velocity, if one gets greater with most pistol rounds the other gets less, the amount of striking energy seems to stay about the same(ish) with most sensible platforms with medium to large frames.

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Re: Glock 19 or 23

Post by Liff » Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:55 pm

zoiders wrote:"Greater Sectional Density" would suggest it's made from depleted uranium or something rather than plain old lead and copper.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectional_density" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Sectional density is the ratio of an object's mass to its cross-sectional area. ... For illustration, a needle can penetrate a target medium with less force than a coin of the same mass.
The greater SD is correct, and all pistol rounds equally suck. 9 vs 40 vs 45 vs 357 is dumb. They all suck.

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Re: Glock 19 or 23

Post by zoiders » Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:21 pm

Liff wrote:
zoiders wrote:"Greater Sectional Density" would suggest it's made from depleted uranium or something rather than plain old lead and copper.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectional_density" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Sectional density is the ratio of an object's mass to its cross-sectional area. ... For illustration, a needle can penetrate a target medium with less force than a coin of the same mass.
The greater SD is correct, and all pistol rounds equally suck. 9 vs 40 vs 45 vs 357 is dumb. They all suck.
No he is wrong.

The ratio of mass to cross sectional area will be aboput the same on a .45 ball round as it is on 9mm ball round, this is because they are both made from the same material, it's for this same reason that modern bow shooters use aluminium arrows as the sectional cross density of the shaft is uniform and does not vary as it used to do with wooden arrows.

To increase the density it would have to made from a material that is heavier for the same volume.

The needle comment is wrong as well, a needle point focuses striking energy in one point and allows a needle to penetrate more easily than a coin as the point focuses striking energy, it has nothing to do with cross sectional density as both are probably steel of similar density.

Someone else has raised the same objection on the talk page as well as the formula posted does not work. Cross sectional density is cross sectional density, what the mistaken wannabe-egg-head who posted the wikipedia page is talking about is the ratio of overall mass to overall length of a projectile, in short - if it's long and pointy it will make holes in things better than an object of equal mass that is short and blunt.

He just doesn't know he is.
Last edited by zoiders on Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:48 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Glock 19 or 23

Post by Liff » Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:50 pm

400 grains claimed "greater sectional density" of the 45 round compared to the 9mm. Hornady lists the sectional density of the 45 230 grain FMJ round as 0.162 and the sectional density of the 9mm 115 grain FMJ round as 0.130. The 9mm bullet's sectional density is 80% compared to the 45's sectional density.

http://www.hornady.com/store/45-Cal-.451-230-gr-FMJ-RN/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.hornady.com/store/9mm-.355-115-gr-FMJ-RN/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The 45 ACP has a greater sectional density. About 20% greater for the ball rounds that you cite.

Argue all you want about how the SD may or may not matter, but about the "greater" claim: either Hornady is wrong or you are wrong. I vote Hornady is not wrong.

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Re: Glock 19 or 23

Post by TDW586 » Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:04 pm

I currently use mainly .40 caliber Glocks. However, I am planning to switch to 9mm and .45 ACP, dropping .40 entirely except for my duty gun.

My reasons are pretty simple; I tend to shoot better with either a 9mm or a .45 ACP than with a .40. The snappier recoil of the .40 slows down my follow up shots and as my round count goes up, I tend to start anticipating recoil. I don't do that with 9mm or .45 ACP. Also, 9mm is cheaper. Overall, I think I'll be happier dropping .40.
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Re: Glock 19 or 23

Post by Kutter_0311 » Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:24 pm

TDW586 wrote:I currently use mainly .40 caliber Glocks. However, I am planning to switch to 9mm and .45 ACP, dropping .40 entirely except for my duty gun.

My reasons are pretty simple; I tend to shoot better with either a 9mm or a .45 ACP than with a .40. The snappier recoil of the .40 slows down my follow up shots and as my round count goes up, I tend to start anticipating recoil. I don't do that with 9mm or .45 ACP. Also, 9mm is cheaper. Overall, I think I'll be happier dropping .40.
I agree. I'm going back to .45 (G30) for carry when it comes in, and ordering a G19 for training/alternate.

I had not anticipated how expensive .40 is, I think I would have ordered a pair of G34's instead of G35's...
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Re: Glock 19 or 23

Post by TDW586 » Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:35 pm

I am very happy with my SIG P220 .45 ACP, and I may try an FNP45 at some point. For carry, I'm planning to buy a G17 and cut the grip to G19 length, that'll be the beginning of my switch to 9mm.

I'm stuck on whether to sell my G35 and buy either another 17 or a 34, or convert my G35 to 9mm.


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