Five-seven Vs RIA .22 TCM

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Re: Five-seven Vs RIA .22 TCM

Post by HavocWorks » Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:59 pm

The video with recoil comparisons, bullet resistant glass and ham explosions http://youtu.be/hFnqoYZcOgc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Five-seven Vs RIA .22 TCM

Post by Mickey Rat » Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:34 pm

I just bought a TCM 22/9 mm. I love it. I fitted a 7.62x25 barrel to it. I call it my Trifecta! The 30 cal ammo has to be a bit short to fit the mag. My research shows that 9 mm Para mags will work with a bit of mod. I dropped off a set of 223 dies to be shortened for loading the new round. I'm currently looking for load data for it.

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Re: Five-seven Vs RIA .22 TCM

Post by Nise » Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:14 am

First of all, Hello All!
Well, I got one ordered and will try to give some range reports. I was on the fence until I called armscor, and spoke with their guy that knows his stuff, that's the way they described him, transfered me through to him, And he indicated a rifle/carbine is in the making. Dies should be available around this years end or slightly after. Other source: Also, it sounds like the factory cooked up some loads that are nearing 2400fps, load unknown? What clinched it for me is that I wanted another high cap, who knows what the next election cycle will bring, get it while you can? Anyway, having the 9 just made sense and I love my baby eagle, all steel version, I just appreciate the extra heft, I shoot em well and am not fond of the 'lites', perhaps coffee nerves? Also, Armscor is manufacturing ammo in Mt which indicates to me that they are committed, and not too far away either. I see cheaperthandirt is carrying 22tcm and midway is carrying armscor ammo in other cals. Overall, I don't think I'd buy it if I could only buy one gun, but neither do I think a person is defenseless having the tcm. ~Nise

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Re: Five-seven Vs RIA .22 TCM

Post by Jeriah » Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:48 am

What's up with all these newfangled sissy-pistol calibers? The .58 Minie Ball is for effeminate Frenchmen; .69 round ball or go play with your penny whistle!
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Re: Five-seven Vs RIA .22 TCM

Post by DarkandShiny » Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:55 pm

What's up with all these newfangled sissy-pistol calibers? The .58 Minie Ball is for effeminate Frenchmen; .69 round ball or go play with your penny whistle!
Blast you and your .69 round - Fear me with my 1851 Augustin .71 and my single round per minute rate of fire!

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Re: Five-seven Vs RIA .22 TCM

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:58 pm

.900 Nitromag Drilling or GTFO.
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Re: Five-seven Vs RIA .22 TCM

Post by Nise » Fri Jul 06, 2012 4:51 pm

The topic was "Five-seven Vs RIA .22 TCM"? Thought that's why all the conversation was about them? The small cals got a purpose too, some better suited then large ones. If the RIA takes off or they fulfill their word on reloading dies around this years end then it remains to be seen how they stack up. The 5.7's longer overall length does lend it to better bullet selection w/ better overall B.C's, and I'd surmise that the 5.7 might be better at distance. I just hope the RIA is put together well enough to let me do my thing w/ the loading aspect.

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Re: Five-seven Vs RIA .22 TCM

Post by Nise » Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:14 am

Things I've noted. the 22tcm came zero'd but the 9 shoots somewhat higher, and the 9 and 22 seem to shoot a bit diff for windage. I drifted the rear sight over so both the 22 and the 9 would be closer better centered. Overall though, the 22tcm is a ball to shoot, I just wish they'd hurry up with the dies. I'm really itching to try my own loads and sight unseen I believe I think the Hornady 35gr vmax looks to be viable and I suspect perhaps better overall? I've talked to a lot of ppl that thought it was cool but the dies are a deal breaker for most. Killed a rabbit first time out with the tcm, pretty devastating.

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Re: Five-seven Vs RIA .22 TCM

Post by Nise » Sat Oct 13, 2012 10:51 pm

Dies now available, brass, and bullets as well.

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Re: Re: Five-seven Vs RIA .22 TCM

Post by wardoggy » Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:53 am

ultra magnus wrote:I wonder if a 22/22 TCM revolver would be possible in the same vein as the 22/22mag ones already out there.
Little late, but no.

Two reasons...
- As GnR said, bottlenecked rimless pistol cartridges in a revolver don't work. We've tried the 5.7 and the 7.62x25, and they were both abysmal failures.
-.22LR is a rimfire. 22TCM is a centerfire. No worky.

Personally, I hope the 22TCM makes some headway, not as a defensive round, but as a small caliber critter blaster. Be fun to waste yotes and whistlepigs with a .22cal G19. :D

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Re: Five-seven Vs RIA .22 TCM

Post by Brandr » Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:01 pm

MacAttack wrote:If FN was thinking ahead they could have made the 5.7 the same length and case diameter as a .45acp.

Using the same mags as any .45 and bolt face.
How about full auto Mac-10's converted to 5.7?
Masterpiece arms sells a M series weapon in 5.7 already
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Re: Five-seven Vs RIA .22 TCM

Post by 9x25_2011 » Sun Oct 21, 2012 7:16 pm

Read almost all posts on the topic... lots of good info
My research indicates that

a) No extractor change is needed to go between 9 and .22 tcm (at least in the RIA gun)
Here is official RIA video of the barrel/spring change to .22tcm from 9
http://youtu.be/6psuwrNYDfU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

2) .22 TCM and 9 use the same magazine which Para P-18 .38 super
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/416116 ... steel-blue

3) I cannot find reloading dies for it or bullet molds for casting

4) Even though somebody up the thread mentioned it, I cannot find 7.62x25 tokarev conversion barrels for this RIA gun (the J&G conversion site said that for theirs to work, it has to be single stack gun, not double stack as the .22 TCM Ria... but cannot reference to jgsales blog post on this).

5) the only ammo that's currently available is this one
Specifications and Features:
Caliber: .22 TCM
Grain Weight: 40
Bullet Type: JHP

1875 Muzzle Velocity
1686 fps Velocity at 50 yards
1511 Velocity at 100 yards

312 ft/lbs Muzzle Energy
252 ft/lbs Energy at 50 yards
203 ft/lbs Energy at 100 yards
Uses: Plinking, Target Practice

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Re: Five-seven Vs RIA .22 TCM

Post by Nise » Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:00 pm

9x25,
Mine came with two extractors, haven't played with trying to use just one, the extractor change out takes about a minute, so not a really big issue, but I've heard the same that some are using the same extractor? My two extractors are different, the tcm is bent more and is slightly more difficult to remove than the relatively straight 9mm. Springs are different as well, the tcm has a 7lb I believe and the 9mm has a 9 or 12? It is a lot of fun to shoot, I'm playing around with reloading it, need to do some barrel feed ramp modification to get my other bullets to feed well, (Not a great factory fit as bbl overhang the frame feed ramp by litterally a whisker. Dies/brass/bullets can be bought, either call Armscor in NV and they can reference you to the right source. Very reasonable prices! I picked up some 30grain TNT HP's which have a huge cavity as well as some 35gr vmax, they need the short/sharp ogive to feed. Need to do some more playing with it though for those. Seems I can't seat the vmax deep enough with the dies for it to function properly in magazine, (figuring I add a large cal flare die in the mix to seat just that extra bit then crimp em). Kinda stinks that the factory seating die runs out of thread before I want, but it seats the 'factory' bullets perfectly. The tnt bullets hang up on my feed ramp so I expect once I do a bit of evening out and polishing that should be taken care of.

Very limited reloading data thus far, 1 load range. I need to go to the range with the chrono and try some other powders, I think 2400 might be a good candidate as well. Looks as though 22 hornet loads are dang close if you reduce by about 10%.

Really the ballistics are akin to a 22mag out of a full length rifle barrel, I can't think of many ppl who'd prefer a 22 mag over a 45, but it's looking like there are other options available for reloading. The Lyman #225438 mold might work as it was designed for the hornet, http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/bull ... ?entryID=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
as that's kind of what the bullet designs revolve around, if you find a good hornet bullet it'll prob work.

It does penetrate well, even the factory soft hp, I believe better than a 45. I am not opposed to using it for a personal defense weapon if pressed. I shot a steel ram twice at 100yds with the factory ammo and though it didn't knock over the ram it left divots in the metal whereas a 45 would not. I also shot some scrap steel and it zinged right thru whereas the 45 would only leave a dent. It has it's uses, is fun and once set up with dies is cheaper on average than 45 is to reload. The 45 does recoil more in same frame size and I know I can crank the rounds as accurately but faster than the 45.

I'll have to report back once I've worked out the few kinks I currently have. But it's accounted for a couple rabbit so far. ~Nise

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Re: Five-seven Vs RIA .22 TCM

Post by AKFTW » Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:39 pm

Still interested in this if they make a drop-in Glock barrel, FMJs, and it uses the regular 9mm extractor. .22 Mag out of a rifle is about what the 5.7 does.
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Re: Five-seven Vs RIA .22 TCM

Post by 9x25_2011 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:23 pm

@nise -- thank you for the follow up and the links

Yes, they all come with the extra extractor. I just did not see it being changed in their official video.
Did you shoot .22 TCM with 9mm extractor or the 9mm with .22 TCM extractor -- and if yes -- did you notice any malfunctions ?
I will follow up with RIA cs on dies, molds etc (they shold make the info public)



For other interested in this ---
The box has
.22 TCM barrel installed in the gun,
1 mag, marked on the side .22 tcm (but they are by all account para .38 super double stacks)
a plastic bag with
a) a small plastic bag with extractor (and that small plastic bag is also labeled with serial number)
b) recoil spring
c) 2 empty .22 TCM cartridges
d) hex wrench for hex screws on the grips
e) Paper titled "Rick Istanld armory 22 TCM Maintanence and Break -in
" ....
* before firing the gun for the first time, please run a .22 cal brass bore brush through the bore and a 9mm brass brush in and out of the chamber to insure there are no debris in the bore form packaging. Also use the two brushes during the intitial breeak-in every 100 rounds, or when firing for accurance to reduce copper fouling

* please understand that if firing in cold temperatures, the tcm will run slugishly durein the break in, always use a FIRM GRIP and lcoked wrists during the initial operation of the pistol

*we recommend using a light machine oil (5wt) or automotive oil on the pistol. only lightly oil the slide and the frame rails, barrel locking lugs, lower link lug, and barrel muzzle end. Never get oil on the breech face or extractor. Always wipe the breech face dry after oiling. Never use gun scrub or carb cleaner on your TCM pistol! Simply clean by disassembling and wiping down the contaqct areas and using compressed air to blow out power residue

* when installing the 9mm convesion, you may have to have a qualified person to install the 9mm extractor, as it requires some specialized techniques to remove the TCM extractor, and to set the tension on the 9mm extractor in your slide. DO NOT forget to install the 12lb recoil spring that comes wit the 9mm convesion. The TCM has 7lb recoil spring and is noticeably lighter.
"
... also they recommend 500 rounds breakin on their warranty card

Here are 'Special features' listed in the manual (that I did not see otherwise on the websites -- I guess those are general to 1911 style guns, however may be more knowledgeable guys would note something that is not easily achievable and Glock/XDM of FNX style guns (that also enjoy currently healthy 'conversion' market)

It might well be that the locking speed/geometry is very different for TCM with 7lb recoil spring than for the 9 -- so the simple '40 to 9mm with barrel convesions examples are not that applicable. But I am not an expert in this (and I know that JG sales made 9x25 barre convesion for single stack 1911 9mm -- so things are possible).


* GI serrated flat top slide with ballnose scallop and heavy chamfer on lowered ejection port, and tight rim clearances on breachface
* countoured and ligthened forged barrel with extra deep upper locking lugs, oversized lower lug. TCM feed ramp and heat treated to 40-42 Rc
*heavy long firing pin to ensure consistent ignition and to control primer flow
*3.17 kg (7lbs) recoil spring
*7.71 kg (17lbs) main spring
*combat hammer with serratied non-slip spur and matching large oval openining for light weight and reduced lock time
*non-slip serrated and skeletonized steel mr2 type trigger
*hi-sweep beavertail grip safety which allows the gun to sit lower in the hand of rless felt recoil
*modified magazine feed lips and follower
*very tight barrel hood clearnence at breechface
* a long barrel link that will ensure the proper top lug engagement

Except the above mention of the 9mm conversion, nowhere in the manual they talk about the conversion procedure.
The manual at the end has parts list which consists of 49 items (this is including the mags) -- but even 9mm barrel or extractor are not mentioned there (I guess the manual is around .22 TCM as the complete gun, and the 9mm is an 'add on'







Nise wrote:9x25,
Mine came with two extractors,.......

It does penetrate well, even the factory soft hp, I believe better than a 45. I am not opposed to using it for a personal defense weapon if pressed. I shot a steel ram twice at 100yds with the factory ammo and though it didn't knock over the ram it left divots in the metal whereas a 45 would not. I also shot some scrap steel and it zinged right thru whereas the 45 would only leave a dent. It has it's uses, is fun and once set up with dies is cheaper on average than 45 is to reload. The 45 does recoil more in same frame size and I know I can crank the rounds as accurately but faster than the 45.

I'll have to report back once I've worked out the few kinks I currently have. But it's accounted for a couple rabbit so far. ~Nise

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Re: Five-seven Vs RIA .22 TCM

Post by roscoe » Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:15 am

Prices?

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Re: Five-seven Vs RIA .22 TCM

Post by Nise » Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:38 pm

roscoe,
prices in mid to high 5's, few ppl trying to exploit any droughts by offering in mid 6's. I'm working on my second one, first one i tried the 9 and the 22, i just enjoy shooting the tcm so much more that i haven't even tried the 9 in it yet. it can be a bit tricky trying to find bullets for reloading as such a sharp ogive is necessary or at least overall ogive length, seems most bullets designed for the 22hornet work well as does loading data, (not recommending others try such though). water capacity of 22hornet is around 14gr and i measured the tcm at 14.6 gr. they both seem to run in similiar pressure range from what I can tell, 30k+.?

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Re: Five-seven Vs RIA .22 TCM

Post by Nise » Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:16 pm

Well, got dies brass and bullets and they are fairly priced. Lee dies, they work alright though I think you can order hornady or rcbs now, and I think they may be better. The Lee dies seem made for the factory 40gr jhp, pretty much a jhp bullet for a 22mag. I tried the hornady 35gr vmax and the seating die doesn't allow me to seat the bullet deep enough, so I had to take the 223 seating stem and put it in a 38 sizing die to press the bullet to the right depth then use the Lee to finish it off. I'm reluctant to post any of my loads as they don't reflect the factory/developer recommended levels, different lot of powder? I'm a full 2 grains over their max suggested and just getting near the factory velocities. Original factory recommended load velocites varied substantially and I had numerous fte's. Once I got close to my expected velocities, (and exceeding their recommendations), the velocities seemed to stabilize. I was just using standard cci 400 prims. Tempted to try 450's. Lots more work to be done, and I have a few other powders to try that I think may be more stable.

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Re: Five-seven Vs RIA .22 TCM

Post by Nise » Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:47 pm

another update, still playing with loads, typically with H110, both with small rifle and small rifle magnum primers. So far, I see no reason to go with magnum primers. It really seems this cartridge is finicky with temperature? As I've dealt w/ H110 in standard pistol cartridges w/ out this much variance. I believe every step of the process or reloading to be ultra critical w/ this little round, seating depth, exact charge, neck tension, cleanliness of bbl, and temperature outside. Even with varying velocities, more than I'd typically be comfortable with, it shoots more than adequately at normal distances out to 50+ yards. I tried 2400 powder of late, thinking I might obtain better consistency in velocities, but it's really no different then H110.

Going off of what 9x25 quoted of factory velocites of 1875fps for factory. Yes, the factory does post that velocity on their boxes and website, and I have yet to have any factory rounds chrongraph that slow! I've not chrono'd a factory round at less than 1975, (it could have been an irroneous reading on my part but pretty much every round chrono's from 2050-2150fps.

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