Semi auto for bears

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Re: Semi auto for bears

Post by squinty » Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:29 pm

I'd stick to solid slugs. And I have never fired a Serbu Shorty, it's an AOW no? But I've fired a couple rounds out of a PGO shotgun and didn't enjoy it one bit.
Last edited by squinty on Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Semi auto for bears

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:32 pm

shiddymunkie wrote:I did read that article, as well as a few pages of that other forum. I guess the downfall of the .223 would be the lack of a substantial permanent wound cavity with steel core/bonded ammo, or the lack of penetration otherwise. Can't say I disagree, never shot a bear before. :mrgreen:

How about a Serbu Super Shorty shooting slugs. Not really a handgun, but its small-ish.
Image

Might work well with DDupleks Hexolit32 12 gauge ammo. The 2 3/4 slugs are 1.125 oz each, and expand to 36-38 mm on impact (~1.5"). Its all steel, with the 6 splinters breaking off in all directions after impact, while the remaining slug (292 gr or 2/3 oz.) continues on its normal path. I imagine you wouldn't need a headshot to stop a bear with this.

Image

Here is a video of how it works.

Here is a video of someone testing it out on various objects.
You missed that part about small and light again. And if I were to use a shortened 12ga, I'd still put a deer-slug in there before some tacticool ultimate shredder rounds like that. And yes, the Serbu is an AOW because it's a pistol with a bore in excess of .500in.
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Re: Semi auto for bears

Post by shiddymunkie » Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:42 pm

I'm just throwing out ideas here, the OP (and anyone else) is free to take them or leave them. And honestly, I really dislike the way people tend to label the "different" as tacticool or mall ninja, as a way of trying to discount an idea without actually providing any facts.

EXTREMELY GRAPHIC CONTENT Here's a video of bear hunters using this exact round. So yeah, sometimes "different" works :roll:

Perhaps do a bit more research before discounting an idea, thanks. Quotes from the video:
- This bear was bagged with one Hexolit32 Slug
- This bear is big, the trophy qualifies for a gold medal
- There are no blood effusions around the entrance hole - the impact shock wave has stopped the blood circulation
- The main body of the slug was found on the opposite side of the body under the skin - all the kinetic energy was transferred to the body
- The combined splinter and shock wave impact of the expanding Hexolit32 slug is maximally effective
* note the sheer damage caused by the Hexolit32 after the bear has been skinned and the organs taken out and analyzed.

EDIT: ADDING VIDEO DISCLAIMER AND DETAILS
Last edited by shiddymunkie on Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:14 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Semi auto for bears

Post by squinty » Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:54 pm

Keep pitching 'em then!
I'm going to stay with conventional advice, which seems to be: if you want handgun sized protection from bears, go revolver with hard cast bullets, in .44 mag or bigger, with grips that cover the backstrap, and get a good chest strap or tanker holster for it. If you insist on going semiauto, I don't know much about "big bore" semis but I've read about reliability and durability problems with .460 Rowland conversions, Desert Eagles are supposedly finicky pistols and they are bulky for handguns, so maybe a Glock 20 with full strength 10mm loads is the best way to go. Or a really expensive 10 mm 1911 like an STI

I don't know of any other "big bore" semis that are still being made. I know about the .44 Automag and the Wildey from Eighties action movies, but I don't think they are made anymore.
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Re: Semi auto for bears

Post by squinty » Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:23 am

shiddymunkie wrote:I'm just throwing out ideas here, the OP (and anyone else) is free to take them or leave them. And honestly, I really dislike the way people tend to label the "different" as tacticool or mall ninja, as a way of trying to discount an idea without actually providing any facts.

EXTREMELY GRAPHIC CONTENT Here's a video of bear hunters using this exact round. So yeah, sometimes "different" works :roll:

Perhaps do a bit more research before discounting an idea, thanks. Quotes from the video:
- This bear was bagged with one Hexolit32 Slug
- This bear is big, the trophy qualifies for a gold medal
- There are no blood effusions around the entrance hole - the impact shock wave has stopped the blood circulation
- The main body of the slug was found on the opposite side of the body under the skin - all the kinetic energy was transferred to the body
- The combined splinter and shock wave impact of the expanding Hexolit32 slug is maximally effective
* note the sheer damage caused by the Hexolit32 after the bear has been skinned and the organs taken out and analyzed.

EDIT: ADDING VIDEO DISCLAIMER AND DETAILS
See. I almost missed your snarky edit! :lol:

Well, the bear is impressive. Wish they had recorded the actual shot, so we could see how quickly the bear was incapacitated after getting hit. It would also be nice to see video or read range reports other than Hexolit promotional video. Love to see Box of Truth play with some.

The reason I'd prefer a traditional slug or hard cast bullet is that I want penetration over expansion for Bear def., and these look like they expand a lot. Hunting's a little different than defense. And I'm not saying the Hexolit's suck - no experience at all with them, they might be snake oil or they might be the bees pajamas for all I know - but the promotional material talks about "Maximum energy transfer" and "Hydrodynamic shockwave" which terminology sounds similar to promotional blurbs for ballistically disappointing ammunition like Glaser and Extreme Shock, etc.

Combine those somewhat discredited concepts with the shooting community's bias towards conservatism, and it's an uphill battle to get something like this accepted. Still, a big hole beats a small hole, so long as it's deep enough. If that sucker still penetrates as well as it opens up it might be pretty devastating. It's also something like 3 bucks a round. I'll take my Winchester SuperX and Brennekes, if I use a slug at all (which I don't much, I don't hunt much and the shotgun I have is more for home d., and full of 00 buckshot.).
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Re: Semi auto for bears

Post by shiddymunkie » Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:44 am

Yeah, I would like to see some more data as well, some (legit) gel tests, etc. But hey, they make a .410 version of this slug. You know what that means...

The Judge :twisted:

Image

ImageImage

That should satisfy the small and lightweight requirements...but I have no idea how well those would actually work for a bear (lol probably not well). Has anyone ever hunted with a normal .410 slug?

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Re: Semi auto for bears

Post by shiddymunkie » Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:12 am

Here's the only video I could find of these rounds being shot into ballistics gel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIuPs70C ... creen&NR=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Semi auto for bears

Post by RottnJP » Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:23 am

Well, SM, you have to realize that "NewFancySuperWhizBango" things come and go, and very few end up panning out. Despite lots of glitzy marketing and buzzwords, they end up being no better, or even worse, than then what people have been using for years. The odds of that increase exponentially if the marketers have to use buzzwords to try and sell it.

Meanwhile, hardcast solids have been the premier killers of big, tough game since the Brits first visited Africa and India. Now, that doesn't mean *none* of the new things pan out, so feel free to keep looking at the newest things. Just don't be surprised when most folks that have been shooting for a bit have seen things come and go before, and will tend to take a "wait and see" or "show me" approach to such things.

The other thing is, as I think people have tried to suggest in some other threads, you don't have much practical credibility established yet when it comes to recommending "different" things. Many things are done the way they are (not just in the shooting community, but in life) for some good reasons. People who have been actively involved for a while learn the basics first, what works and doesn't work, and then when they suggest something it has some weight of experience behind it. It doesn't mean no new things will work, but at the same time when people who have "been there and done that" tell you something won't work as well as you think, it may not mean they are being close-minded- It may just mean they have enough experience to know something isn't a good idea, and when you blow off their experience, it may not be completely reasonable to expect them to listen to your thoughts, either. Anyway, that's my only comment on the interpersonal dynamics with which you are expressing some frustration.

To answer your ballistics question: Personally, if we're just talking about a handgun practical for carry and rapid access, I'd run .45 Super in a Glock 21SF if I were out and about in brown bear country. It's not got *quite* the oomph of 460 Rowland, but it's much easier to set up than the Rowland conversion. 10mm would be my choice in a stock auto. Either way, with the heaviest solids I could find. I've got a 4" .44 mag, but I don't train with it nearly enough to make it a "go to" gun for me. If I lived in grizzly country, that might be different, and the .44 mag would win. But right now, I handle a 10mm or .45 far better than I do a .44.

If you want a short shotgun, you could look at the 20 gauge howdah pistol made by Pedersoli, I suppose. I've never fired one, but in theory a couple of good 20 gauge slugs ought to do the trick, and if you have a griz charging you'll be doing well to get off two well-placed shots. I've seen some videos of bear charges, and holy crap those things can move. I have a ton of respect for brown bears, and would give 'em as wide a berth as I could.

Blacks, on the other hand, when I've sen them in the woods have always high-tailed it as soon as they knew I was there. There were probably lots more that I didn't see, but when I've seen a black bear first all I've had to do was break a stick, or clear my throat a little, and they're gone.

If you want to understand penetration a little better, Google "sectional density" and understand how to calculate it. In general, "all other things being equal," bullets of higher sectional density (SD) will penetrate better. Just looking at velocities and grains doesn't correlate with penetration or terminal effectiveness, necessarily. But it's not just as simple as SD either- Bullet construction matters, too- hardcast solids tend to stay in one piece even when they hit thick, strong bones. They'll be heavy for caliber (sectional density) and many will tend to have a wide flat nose to tear through tissue, and disturb more of the surrounding tissue. But their main mission in life is to punch a deep, wide hole through whatever gets in their way, and just keep going. Those are hunting bullets for big game. Note that that construction and shape is pretty much the opposite of a .223 bullet, which will likely fragment, deflect, or both, on impact with Mr. Bear's thick bones.

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Re: Semi auto for bears

Post by KentsOkay » Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:38 am

THe Judge is a piece of crap and should only be used for snakes:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot53.htm
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Re: Semi auto for bears

Post by alptraum » Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:52 am

KentsOkay wrote:THe Judge is a piece of crap and should only be used for snakes:
I'm not sure...It appears to be fun for tossing clays from your off hand and shooting them with a Judge...

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Re: Semi auto for bears

Post by KentsOkay » Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:56 am

Piece of crap for killing something :mrgreen:

Anything that goes bang can be fun, but some things just shouldnt be used when, y know, bears attack.
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Re: Semi auto for bears

Post by squinty » Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:55 pm

shiddymunkie wrote: The Judge :twisted:

Image
Not a lot of Judge love around here, for good reason. No I don't think .410 would do anything very discouraging to a bear.
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Re: Semi auto for bears

Post by gelgoog » Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:46 pm

It really depends where you live. For alaskan Grizzly and Kodiak, I would not even consider anything less than a 12 gauge loaded with slugs, or any rifle smaller than a .45/70. Reason being is that you can run into bears very quickly, so much so that you may only get one shot off. I have had black bears sneak up with 20 feet of my campsite without me noticing when I go backpacking. Get between a Sow and her cub and things could get very ugly.

My uncle who used to work in a gunshop was friends with a gentleman who was an alaskan guide. Turns out this guy was guiding a group of hunters when he noticed a set of bear tracks, so he told his group to stay where they were so he could track the bear and noticed that it was following them. He did not get much more than 30 yards before he turn to see the big hulk of the bear practically on top of him. He only had time to raise his rifle and shoot from the hip before he blacked out. The group hearing the gunfire came to his location to find him unconscious with a dead kodiak practically laying on top of him. The bear had swiped him right as he fired and it tore off the top layer of skin effectively scalping him, and as they brought him around he had blood gushing from his head. He said it looked worse than it actually was, but was still a pretty serious wound and he had to then walk another 12 miles to get to a ranger station. Kind of reminds me of a Jedediah Smith.

So be concerned, bears will generally leave you alone if you make enough noise so that they can avoid you, but if you stumble upon one it could be a bad day for all involved. So make sure you have a rifle/shotgun capable of taking it down quickly. This goes the same for moose who are much more dangerous then bears.


As far as the judge goes: I am normally not worried about cylinder lockup from reputable manufacturers like S&W or Ruger, but I have heard so many horror stories from judge owners (well taurus owners in general) that I would not count the judge for anything but a novelty range toy. It being sold as a mini-handcannon great for SD is so ridiculous that it boarders on dangerous false advertising.

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Re: Semi auto for bears

Post by RottnJP » Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:40 pm

How did we get 6 pages in without someone saying...

Well, that depends- Are you talking about a mini-Ditka, or a full size Ditka? Maybe 10 mini-Ditkas and one full size Ditka? :P

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Re: Semi auto for bears

Post by LowKey » Sat Aug 23, 2014 9:30 pm

My day fro thread necros, but -

From the <ahem> never wrong, always accurate, Wikipedia.
In this case I think we can trust it...really.

Due to the very special nature of Sirius Sledge Patrol operations, a wide range of unique equipment is required that is not normally used within the Danish armed forces.[2][8]

The weapons carried also reflect the harsh conditions. Among the equipment used by the Sirius Sledge Patrol is the M1917 Enfield bolt-action rifle chambered in .30-06 Springfield, known in Danish service as the Gevær M/53 (17), and Glock 20 pistols chambered in 10mm Auto.

The reason for changing their sidearm is their previous Pistol M/49 sidearms chambered in 9mm Parabellum proved insufficient against the polar bears encountered.[9]

"The weapons carried also reflect the harsh conditions. Only bolt-action rifles (M17/M53) performs reliably. The standard SIG210 Neuhausen sidearm was recently replaced by the 10mm Glock 20, as the stopping power of multiple 9mm rounds proved to be insufficient against a polar bear."[10]


So, 9mm apparently isn't up to the task no matter how hot the load and by inference 10mm seems to be.
Of course YMMV.
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Re: Semi auto for bears

Post by JeeperCreeper » Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:25 am

Don't know if I'm reviving a dead and killed thread but....

Semi auto for bears:

1. Glock 20 10mm... (maybe EAA Witness in 10mm or 1911 in 10mm, but either are not as good IMHO). Only problem ith Glock is the polygonal rifling is no good for lead cast bullets

2. Besides .460 Roland (no good unless you're a handloader) is probably a .45 ACP with +P hardcast ammo. For this, I would look to Ruger such as the P90, P345, or even SR45 as Ruger's are cheap, reliable, and rated for +P and +P+ ammo. Maybe even a 3rd generation S&W. Or if all ele fails, a good ole 1911
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Re: Semi auto for bears

Post by ZomCon Sargeant » Mon Sep 15, 2014 6:31 pm

Bear Spray, .454 Casull Revolver, or a 12 Gauge Shotgun are the best defense against Bears.

A Glock 20 (10mm) or 23 (.40S&W) might do the job but why risk it? No matter how many out there would like to think that their Glock will kill a bear the fact of the matter is that they were not designed to kill bears.

So I say get some proven Bear Spray and if he has his heart set on a Glock 20 then get that too. If the Bear Spray fails then he can go for his G20 and if that fails then he can regret not getting a .454 Casull.

As far as Mountain Lions go, a Bowie Knife or 12 gauge is your best bet but in most cases it will be on you before you know it and biting your head or neck with a deathgrip.

When I go up to our cabin I always carry a fixed blade knife and have my Baby Eagle II .40S&W on my person and my Ruger Mini-30 7.62x39mm close at hand. I make enough noise to let any bears in the area know I am there and I am very carfeful not to leave food or spices out. My .40S&W is more or less to scare the bear away or worst case have to use it on the bear.

Basically I am not worried about bears. But respect the fact that they are around. I worry far more about ticks and skunks then any bear.

Mountain Lions have been spotted in the area but I have never seen one personally.
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Re: Semi auto for bears

Post by eeb » Sun Sep 21, 2014 10:57 am

44mag Deagle.
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Re: Semi auto for bears

Post by Caenus » Sun Sep 21, 2014 7:47 pm

The Dupos are pretty nasty. I've shot a hog with one and it looked like a baseball blew out of the other side of them. (250-ish hog)

I wish I had a picture of it.

Actually it kinda looked more like an alien came out of its side. As far as penetration goes, I cant speak for that since the hog was much thinner than a large bear.

I keep dupo 28's in the camp shotgun (Mav 88) for all things that need to stop what they are doing immediately.

I may just set up a slug gun for elk next year to get a good idea what they'd do to a larger bodied animal.
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Re: Semi auto for bears

Post by steppenwolf » Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:06 pm

LowKey wrote:My day fro thread necros, but -

From the <ahem> never wrong, always accurate, Wikipedia.
In this case I think we can trust it...really.

Due to the very special nature of Sirius Sledge Patrol operations, a wide range of unique equipment is required that is not normally used within the Danish armed forces.[2][8]
The weapons carried also reflect the harsh conditions.
Among the equipment used by the Sirius Sledge Patrol is the * * * Glock 20 pistols chambered in 10mm Auto.
The reason for changing their sidearm is their previous Pistol M/49 sidearms chambered in 9mm Parabellum proved insufficient against the polar bears encountered.[9]
"The weapons carried also reflect the harsh conditions. Only bolt-action rifles (M17/M53) performs reliably. The standard SIG210 Neuhausen sidearm was recently replaced by the 10mm Glock 20, as the stopping power of multiple 9mm rounds proved to be insufficient against a polar bear."[10]


So, 9mm apparently isn't up to the task no matter how hot the load and by inference 10mm seems to be.
Of course YMMV.
Loaded for Bear ... :wink:

Well, for anyone going about in the sort of wilds where the big bruins roam, and seeking to arm themselves with a "bear-stopper" of a handgun, there'll soon be another choice for you: how 'bout a stainless Sig 220 factory-chambered in 10mm?

Linky from 9/24/2014 is here: http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/ ... 4280076263

It's a "bear-stopper." 8-)

10mm AUTO - 200gns @ 1270fps.
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Re: Semi auto for bears

Post by arentol » Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:37 am

Just in case anyone finds this thread and runs out looking to buy Buffalo Bore 220gr 10mm hard casts....

A box of 20 220gr 10mm hard casts from Buffalo Bore, rated at 1200fps, 703 ft. lbs, $31.55 as I write this.

A box of 50 220gr 10mm hard casts from Underwood, rated at 1200fps, 703 ft. lbs, $39.95 as I write this.

That is almost exactly half the price for Underwood, and according to all reports and testing I have seen Underwood ammo meets its rated specs at least as consistently as Buffalo Bore. Especially in 10mm which is what they made their name on.


And to answer the original, dead, question just for fun... If a bear is genuinely attacking you then there is almost no chances you will have enough time to get 5 or 6 aimed shots off with any gun. So instead of worrying about having enough rounds in your gun, you should be worried about accuracy, reliability, and doing as much damage as possible with the rounds you do have...

I have a G20 and .44 magnum, and if I was going into grizzly country with only a handgun I would want the magnum every time. 340 grains at 1425fps vs 220 grains at 1200fps with a grizzly charging at me? Not even vaguely a contest. If I could go back 3 years, I would push strongly for a powerful revolver, but would also back the G20 (with a "hunting" barrel) if it was semi-auto or nothing.

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Re: Semi auto for bears

Post by quazi » Mon Feb 09, 2015 2:19 am

I finally got an aftermarket barrel for shooting cast lead bullets out of my Glock 29, and now there isn't any heavy hard cast ammunition to be found in town. :(

I like living in Alaska, but one bummer is that ammunition (and even powder and primers) can't normally be shipped to individuals up here. There's some nonsense about it being hazardous. Unless you reload you're stuck with whatever the store has in stock. Ammo shortages seem to last a lot longer up here, and the reloading supplies also get wiped out during the panics, so a person can be SOL for a long time.

I want to try a wider variety of bullets out of my Glocks. I've pretty much just shot 180 grain and 200 grain. I can see the value of going up to 220 grain, but that might necessitate buying a custom bullet mold. If I just stuck with 200 grain I could buy factory produced hard cast bullets and/or a stock mold. They also make 200 grain JHP ammunition, so I could have the same bullet weight for my "woods" load and my "town" load. I haven't done any research to see how reliably the 200 grain JHP bullets expand.

I settled on 10mm as a compromise cartridge that would work for both human attackers and large animals. If I was going to get a dedicated pistol for people I'd go with 9mm. If I was going to get a dedicated handgun for bear I would probably go with a .44 mag.

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Re: Semi auto for bears

Post by LowKey » Mon Feb 09, 2015 2:16 pm

quazi wrote:
I settled on 10mm as a compromise cartridge that would work for both human attackers and large animals. If I was going to get a dedicated pistol for people I'd go with 9mm. If I was going to get a dedicated handgun for bear I would probably go with a .44 mag.
Precisely the same line of reasoning I had.
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AS556
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Re: Semi auto for bears

Post by AS556 » Mon Feb 09, 2015 2:38 pm

I recently started handloading, what do you guys think of a hardcast SWC 158gr +P out of a 3" .38 for general purpose animal defense in the woods? Everything from coyote to cougar and black bear. Im not interested in a new gun or caliber, just optimizing a load for my current pistol.

This will accompany a 12ga with slugs most of the time.

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